How you rank your identities

[RedEce]

Muslim.
Pakistani and that's where it ends.

 

[Soumitra]

Are you sure ?
Would you then fight for the rights of Indians in Kashmir ? And the Indian getting killed by beef banana drama ?

Yes I support the rights of millions of peaceful Indians in Kashmir who do not indulge in stone pelting or tke up the gun. Once you do that your rights diminish

Same with beef ban. There are states like Kerala where it is not banned and states like Haryana where it is banned. It depends on the state govt elected by the people. If the govt democratically elected by the people bans a substance then it becomes illegal. I dont condone taking law in own hands but if it is made illegal by law and you still eat beef or slaughter cattle then you are breaking the law. You may not like the law but you have to follow it. Else you have 2 choices.
1 wait 5 years and elect a govt which will overturn the ban
2 move to a state where the ban does not exist.

BTW did you know most of the states the beef ban was actually passed by the "secular" Congress govts. They did not strictly enforce the Law. The BJP govts are more strict in enforcing these laws.

Yes, because survival of India = survival of Hindus. So you prefer survival of Hindus > survival of Uttarkhandians.

Survival of uttarakhandis over survival of Hindus

Hindu is a sub identity not the primary one

 

[wxyz]

I think identity is a sense of "belonging". Affinity. Relating. Looking for your "own". In its pathological form it becomes exclusionary. Where you start branding people as "others" and then dehumanise them.

Identity is about human relationships.

There are different humans. Different relationships. Thus different identities.

Or perhaps just an attempt to comfort our insecurities in the face of several chilling existential truths. A struggle to create a false yet arguably necessary, comforting and distracting illusion. Something we could classify as definitive in a world where nothing truly is definitive.

I say this because yours makes it seem as though "relationships" are the driving force behind it. I respectfully disagree, the human spirit mostly tends to be self-absorbed by nature. Whatever it puts out into the world is a result of its own internal struggle. And when it puts this out into the world, it is mostly rooted in ego, insecurity & fear. And rightly so.

That's a beautiful and sound way to put it.

I guess I might be fucked in the head when I say... We are born in this world alone. Can any human remember when they first gain consciousness? There is nobody in the world that lives among us that remembers the beginning to their existence.

I assume when we leave this world, we will also go out the same way. There will be no one with you when you are dying. What do I know? I am just a manically depressed individual.

Not depressed. You're awake.

A lonely ride. As dreadful as it gets, i won't call it depression. That is the human experience in its raw form.

Also, in this existence, if you're sane....something's wrong with you

 

[adil_minhas]

Or perhaps just an attempt to comfort our insecurities in the face of several chilling existential truths. A struggle to create a false yet arguably necessary, comforting and distracting illusion. Something we could classify as definitive in a world where nothing truly is definitive.

I say this because yours makes it seem as though "relationships" are the driving force behind it. I respectfully disagree, the human spirit mostly tends to be self-absorbed by nature. Whatever it puts out into the world is a result of its own internal struggle. And when it puts this out into the world, it is mostly rooted in ego, insecurity & fear. And rightly so.

There is a vast spectrum array of identity and what drives it. If you go back to my post, I did touch on your theme - of fear, insecurity, false facade, of banding together vs the "outsider".

There is no denying that each human is unique, and is a unique mix of identities. Hence it is virtually impossible to pigeon hole a group into a homogeneous identity.

Because while there may be an overlap on one or many identities, equally individuals from the same grouping would equally or more comfortably group with some of another grouping on other identities.

In the end, while what drives an identity comes from within each unique individual, the very identity per se is how he or she relates to events or concepts or situations made up of other individuals.

Hence my theory of human interpersonal relationships behind identity.

Taken it it's crudest form, were an individual to be the only human living on earth, what would be his identity?

Human.

Two humans?

That's when the sub splits happen.

Thanks for a stimulating post.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

In terms of ranking of Identities a lot of Pakistanis say that they rank their Muslim Identity above their Pakistani Identity. Not only in this thread but in other threads also

I had asked a quetion in the nth indo pak nuclear war thread but no one their had replied. I hope someone replies on this thread



@PaklovesTurkiye @Proudpakistaniguy @hussain0216 @salarsikander @Azlan Haider @RazaGujjar @waz @Northern @xxx{[::::::::>

Indian ex president Abdul kalam was very much atheist just like javed Akhtar and many others well known Indian Muslims celebrities .I did not get your question but Pakistani are Muslims so considering yourself Muslim before Pakistani don't mean its Muslim vs Pakistani .

I did mentioned myself human before anything . I think someone who is nationalist before anything else would not hesitate to harms others in the name of national interests so blind nationalists will defend every right or wrong of his country and will not bear constructive criticism while those who care about humanity and religion would have this dare to criticise their own Government/country if they ever commit something wrong or immoral

 

[salarsikander]

Yes I support the rights of millions of peaceful Indians in Kashmir who do not indulge in stone pelting or tke up the gun. Once you do that your rights diminish

Same with beef ban. There are states like Kerala where it is not banned and states like Haryana where it is banned. It depends on the state govt elected by the people. If the govt democratically elected by the people bans a substance then it becomes illegal. I dont condone taking law in own hands but if it is made illegal by law and you still eat beef or slaughter cattle then you are breaking the law. You may not like the law but you have to follow it. Else you have 2 choices.
1 wait 5 years and elect a govt which will overturn the ban
2 move to a state where the ban does not exist.

BTW did you know most of the states the beef ban was actually passed by the "secular" Congress govts. They did not strictly enforce the Law. The BJP govts are more strict in enforcing these laws.


Survival of uttarakhandis over survival of Hindus

Hindu is a sub identity not the primary one

And why would anyone raise stones in first place? Bevuase it is what fun?

 

[wxyz]

There is a vast spectrum array of identity and what drives it. If you go back to my post, I did touch on your theme - of fear, insecurity, false facade, of banding together vs the "outsider".

There is no denying that each human is unique, and is a unique mix of identities. Hence it is virtually impossible to pigeon hole a group into a homogeneous identity.

Because while there may be an overlap on one or many identities, equally individuals from the same grouping would equally or more comfortably group with some of another grouping on other identities.

In the end, while what drives an identity comes from within each unique individual, the very identity per se is how he or she relates to events or concepts or situations made up of other individuals.

Hence my theory of human interpersonal relationships behind identity.

Taken it it's crudest form, were an individual to be the only human living on earth, what would be his identity?

Human.

Two humans?

That's when the sub splits happen.

Thanks for a stimulating post.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying and definitely see where you're coming from. What you're saying is that, correct me if I am wrong, even though identity comes from within, it is defined by our relationships since most things in this world are relative. It depends heavily on how we relate to one another and where we see our place in the world, in which other humans play a huge role once again. I definitely agree with that and think that you very clearly and eloquently laid it out. But what I was adding, something you did touch upon, was that identity within the individual is an attempt to "be". It is the result of the internal struggle with the "truth (inevitable reality)" that we are fated to and petrified/powerless in the face of. I think identity comes mostly from that insecurity and reflects more of that insecurity in the individual than it does anything else.

So when I hear patriots say... "anything for pakistan or anything for india or anything for any country/group"....I see more their fears than human relationships.

Thank you for sharing your ideas, they educated me.

 

[XenoEnsi-14]

Extra Terrestrial : Observe and Report

Human
US American (Constitution/Federalist Papers)
Monotheistic Deism
Non-interventionist
Earthling

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

In terms of ranking of Identities a lot of Pakistanis say that they rank their Muslim Identity above their Pakistani Identity. Not only in this thread but in other threads also

I had asked a quetion in the nth indo pak nuclear war thread but no one their had replied. I hope someone replies on this thread

Pakistanis will be sad for their country but will be happy for rest of Muslim brethren...May be Allah has not chosen us as alive till end times...So, no problem. Other Muslims will take care and represent Muslim community...

As far as Indian Muslims are concerned...Choice is in their hands...They can leave India, Pakistan won't mind. If they have decided their fate to be with rest of fellow Indians, so be it...Pakistan is not guilty here...

 

[Soumitra]

Pakistanis will be sad for their country but will be happy for rest of Muslim brethren...May be Allah has not chosen us as alive till end times...So, no problem. Other Muslims will take care and represent Muslim community...

As far as Indian Muslims are concerned...Choice is in their hands...They can leave India, Pakistan won't mind. If they have decided their fate to be with rest of fellow Indians, so be it...Pakistan is not guilty here...

I guess I will never be able to comprehend why Muslim > Pakistani. to each his own. Same way I guess you will not be able to understand Indian > Hindu. A Nationalistic Identity over a Religious one.

I think that the real reason will be that Muslims are more overtly religious as compared to Hindus. I am a Hindu but I rarely go to a temple or pray to god. Maybe once or twice a year. I may celebrate some major festival like Diwali or Holi but that's it. On the other hand a muslim even if he does not pray 5 times a day will attend friday prayers. They are also much more open with the display of their religious identity - A skull Cap, Beard, Hijab, Burqa etc. And the Indian Muslims who do not do so are being termed as "Hindu Muslims" as if they are somewhat less muslims. For example a few post above @Proudpakistaniguy called Abdul Kalam an Atheist even though he was a Muslim just because he did not display typical signs of a Muslim - the skull cap, the praying, the beard

And why would anyone raise stones in first place? Bevuase it is what fun?

Dont know sometimes they do it just for the heck of it. There was an incident a few days ago. the army officers had visited a college because they wanted to meet the principal regarding some community program. Just seeing the Army vehicle the students started pelting stones. this is nothing but result of brainwashing.

I think someone who is nationalist before anything else would not hesitate to harms others in the name of national interests so blind nationalists will defend every right or wrong of his country and will not bear constructive criticism while those who care about humanity and religion would have this dare to criticise their own Government/country if they ever commit something wrong or immoral

That is true. A nationalist will defend the national honour. You want to express a different view do it within the four walls of the constitution in a peaceful manner. For example even though he has disagreeement with Congress Narendra Modi has not put Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in jail

I can also say that those who care about religion will not bear constructive critisism of their religion or would not dare critisize own religion even if they commit something wrong

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

I think that the real reason will be that Muslims are more overtly religious as compared to Hindus. I am a Hindu but I rarely go to a temple or pray to god. Maybe once or twice a year. I may celebrate some major festival like Diwali or Holi but that's it. On the other hand a muslim even if he does not pray 5 times a day will attend friday prayers. They are also much more open with the display of their religious identity - A skull Cap, Beard, Hijab, Burqa etc. And the Indian Muslims who do not do so are being termed as "Hindu Muslims" as if they are somewhat less muslims. For example a few post above @Proudpakistaniguy called Abdul Kalam an Atheist even though he was a Muslim just because he did not display typical signs of a Muslim - the skull cap, the praying, the beard


That is true. A nationalist will defend the national honour. You want to express a different view do it within the four walls of the constitution in a peaceful manner. For example even though he has disagreeement with Congress Narendra Modi has not put Sonia and Rahul Gandhi in jail

I can also say that those who care about religion will not bear constructive critisism of their religion or would not dare critisize own religion even if they commit something wrong

Religion/God is against aggression, oppression and injustice so somone who care about his God will never take the side of aggressor even if aggressor is his own brother let alone country man. Good Muslim should make you good Human beings.

You said you guys dont care about religion and then elect people like yogi and Modi who are very vocal about Hindu nationalism. Have you listened the speeches/statements of Yogi? If religion dont matter to you Indians then why sending fellow Indians in prison for slaughtering cow and even proposing life sentence for it ? Why state sponsor ghar wapisi programme to convert poor muslims into Hinduism and why love jihad? Why replacing Muslim names of Road/streets/town with Hindu names if you guys dont care about religion ?

Actually many people like javed akhtar ,taslima nasreen are calling themselves athiests and others have their own version of Islam which is bit mixture of everything i.e Hinduism ,Islam, secularism, sufism where they think all religions are true even when contradict in basic things i.e polytheism vs monotheism to get the approval of followers of all religions

And about Abdul kalam read this

The dignity, the respect, and the reverence that Kalam earns from Hindus and Muslims alike is essentially because of his success. As we all know, success has many fathers. It's little surprise that Muslims are proud of Kalam, even if they know that his apparent association with them is just based on his name and nothing else. Indian intellectuals, both Hindu and Muslim, like him because he has what it takes to be a proud nationalist, an advocate of Indian values and culture, and a true son of the motherland. Radical Hindus from the Hindutva brigade like him because besides his patriotism and success, they also see in him the signs of transition or deviation from Islam to what they believe is Hinduism. Everyone has something likeable in Kalam.

https://m.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/28guest.htm

 

[Soumitra]

Religion/God is against aggression, oppression and injustice so somone who care about his God will never take the side of aggressor even if aggressor is his own brother let alone country man. Good Muslim should make you good Human beings.

You said you guys dont care about religion and then elect people like yogi and Modi who are very vocal about Hindu nationalism. Have you listened the speeches/statements of Yogi? If religion dont matter to you Indians then why sending fellow Indians in prison for slaughtering cow and even proposing life sentence for it ? Why state sponsor ghar wapisi programme to convert poor muslims into Hinduism and why love jihad? Why replacing Muslim names of Road/streets/town with Hindu names if you guys dont care about religion ?

Actually many people like javed akhtar ,taslima nasreen are calling themselves athiests and others have their own version of Islam which is bit mixture of everything i.e Hinduism ,Islam, secularism, sufism where they think all religions are true even when contradict in basic things i.e polytheism vs monotheism to get the approval of followers of all religions

And about Abdul kalam read this

The dignity, the respect, and the reverence that Kalam earns from Hindus and Muslims alike is essentially because of his success. As we all know, success has many fathers. It's little surprise that Muslims are proud of Kalam, even if they know that his apparent association with them is just based on his name and nothing else. Indian intellectuals, both Hindu and Muslim, like him because he has what it takes to be a proud nationalist, an advocate of Indian values and culture, and a true son of the motherland. Radical Hindus from the Hindutva brigade like him because besides his patriotism and success, they also see in him the signs of transition or deviation from Islam to what they believe is Hinduism. Everyone has something likeable in Kalam.

https://m.rediff.com/news/2002/jun/28guest.htm

It may surprise you to know that many people elected modi because of his decisive image as a no nonsense administrator and a person for development. The fact that he is a practicing Hindu and is not shy of his Hindu values is just an icing on the cake. It makes the cake more delicious. Some people like the base some like the icing some like both. Everybody wins.

In UP elections Yogi was not the face it was Modi. Yogi is there to implement Modi's agenda. In a state like UP you need someone like Yogi to take it forward.

Regarding Beef Ban and Love Jihad it is not that BJP was hiding the fact that it is against Beef or love jihad. It openly campaigned for a beef ban. Obviously the people did not find it problematic that is why they elected BJP. For years people were derided for their Hindu identity. Here comes a person who is not ashamed of it. It attracts a lot of people. the BJP supporters identity is Indian First but that deos not mean that they will suppress their Hindu Identity.

Coming to your point about Javed Akhtar, Tasleema Nasreen, APJ Abdul Kalam. You are simply reiterating my point that you do not consider a person who does not have visible symbols of faith like Skull Cap, Beard, Hijab etc to be a muslim.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

So you are suggesting that i should call muslims to those who are calling themselves atheists
[Video]

Don’t call me Muslim, I am an atheist’
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-...-me-muslim-i-am-an-atheist/article7016166.ece

So its not about visible sysmbols or appearence but to believe in existence and attributes of Islamic God and believe in Holy Quran, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) , eternal life and day of judgements and living your Iife according to guidelines of Islam so there are some fundamentals which you need to follow in order to call youself Muslim. Just having Muslim name or born in Muslim family dont make you Muslim

 

[sbh02]

@Soumitra @Proudpakistaniguy

Anyone that voted for Modi in the UP elections, after he promoted Hindu nationalism over Indian nationalism shows they value their Hindu values over their Indian values. Just look at how divisive and communal his campaign was. It also shows why India is the fourth worst country in the world for religious intolerance/unrest/hostilities and religious violence.

https://qz.com/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

Yet, you see so-called "Indian nationalists" deny there is state discrimination and majoritarianism against non-Hindu minorities in India. If you were an Indian nationalist, you would have a bigger heart towards the plight of minorities against your state discrimination. But like the Modi sarkar, you play the Hindu victim card, when what you provide to the minorities is pittance in relation to the state discrimination they face. Live as a non-Hindu minority in India, and then I'd like to see what you think.

I am a secular Pakistani, who places his Pakistani identity first, and religious identity later, and have openly defended the minorities persecuted in our country. I pray occasionally, and do the basics in Islam, but I wouldn't say I'm a fully practicing Muslim unfortunately. But I salute the courage of Proudpakistaniguy for stating that he places his Muslim identity first and Pakistani second. It is a difference of opinion, but at least we are honest about it.

I have not seen honesty from Indians on this issue, sadly.

 

[GURU DUTT]

@Soumitra @Proudpakistaniguy

Anyone that voted for Modi in the UP elections, after he promoted Hindu nationalism over Indian nationalism shows they value their Hindu values over their Indian values. Just look at how divisive and communal his campaign was. It also shows why India is the fourth worst country in the world for religious intolerance/unrest/hostilities and religious violence.

https://qz.com/959802/india-is-the-fourth-worst-country-in-the-world-for-religious-violence/

Yet, you see so-called "Indian nationalists" deny there is state discrimination and majoritarianism against non-Hindu minorities in India. If you were an Indian nationalist, you would have a bigger heart towards the plight of minorities against your state discrimination. But like the Modi sarkar, you play the Hindu victim card, when what you provide to the minorities is pittance in relation to the state discrimination they face. Live as a non-Hindu minority in India, and then I'd like to see what you think.

I am a secular Pakistani, who places his Pakistani identity first, and religious identity later, and have openly defended the minorities persecuted in our country. But I salute the courage of Proudpakistaniguy for stating that he places his Muslim first and Pakistani second. It is a difference of opinion, but at least we are honest about it.

I have not seen honesty from Indians on this issue, sadly.

you sir actually have no idea as why BJP won in UP let me tell you few major points

1. BSP+SP+Congress gundagardee +mismangement and phonee Vote bank politics of appeasement which made them look lame and weak both in front of so called DALIT,OBC, SC/ST vote banks and Mulims votebanks which they always treated only as vote banks

2. too much corruption and no work on ground and people were sick of there women getting harressed by SP/BSP goons and state police standing as silent specatators

3. rising of pro ISIS and al queda type elements and exodus of hindus which united hindus and brojke legacy jaat paat ki rajniti in hindus

4. most of the muslims and hindus who travel to BJP ruled states know how BJP is working and tranformed those states and how people are happy and relecting BJP again and again despite all bogus pseudo intellecutals telling them otherwise people are not fools niether are there home budget and economics

5. like it or not BJP performs and BJP is non corrupt and tranforming india wherever it is in power and now UP wants the same bihar guys went back to lalloo and are paying the price and UP guys saw it

rest you can speculate yourself what your ISPR fed media feeds you about your arch enemy is not all true there is a reason why indians love NaMo so so much ... just think of it with a cool head you just need to open your eyes about it