How to clear the mess by Imran Khan

[fatman17]

first lets all clear the mess in IM the DIM's head before we talk of anything else.
Great cricketers dont make great politicians!

 

[Hellfire]

first lets all clear the mess in IM the DIM's head before we talk of anything else.
Great cricketers dont make great politicians!

agreed

but they may make sense at times and be pragmatic in their approach

 

[Awesome]

You're missing IK's point here.

If the Pakistani security forces had not sided with the US in attacking its own citizens, there would have been no "rise of the Taliban". Or in IK's own words, lest I put words in his mouth :

"Iran is ideologically opposed to both Al Qaeda and the Taliban yet why are its security forces not attacked by terrorists? The answer is because their President does not pretend to be a bulwark against Islamic extremism in return for US dollars and support."

Basically, he's saying that there was no Talibanization in Pakistan prior to the attacks on the tribal areas.

The solution is another matter.

I don't disagree with that. But now its happened. Now what do we do? How do you get rid of the Taliban?

Not surrender and get peace, get RID of them.

 

[Durran3]

Imran is NOT a good politician though i do admire him for many other reasons but is it still hard for him to understand that the Taliban are just a few hundred kilometers away from Islamabad? I think its time the Military pulls its socks up and hits the Taliban and smite them. We Pakistani's do have a moral obligation to eradicate the Taliban not for ourselves but for the whole region as well, they shouldn't rule over any country or anyone.

 

[ANDUBYLL]

There are two kinds of political leaders in Pakistan. Those that are willing to do something about the predicament in Pakistan, to put their life on the line and the second kind who do nothing apart from making bravado statements for the masses.
I would bucket Imran and Musharaf in the first category. Zardari and Nawaz sharief in the second. Both Zardari and Sharief are doing nothing about the situation, just carrying on and fiddling while a part of Pakistan burns !!
At least of all politicians, Imran Khan has the foresight and the willingness to do something and suggest a pathway to peace. He can lay low and enjoy his life but he is willing to do otherwise, gets my respect !!

 

[roadrunner]

I don't disagree with that. But now its happened. Now what do we do? How do you get rid of the Taliban?

Not surrender and get peace, get RID of them.

It's an ideology Asim that was spread by the Americans, the Saudis, and Zia in the 80s.

If they could be educated to think Talibanically, they can be uneducated to think moderately.

 

[Kasrkin]

If the Pakistani security forces had not sided with the US in attacking its own citizens, there would have been no "rise of the Taliban"...

This is a dangerous lie and those who voice it should be ashamed. The Pakistani forces did not 'side with the US' by 'attacking own citizens'. The Pakistan Army only attacked Al-Qaeda and the tribes who were defending them, and even then un-armed civilians are NEVER targeted. The Pakistan Army is not a legion of baby killers who storm into every house and gun down all the children and women in the vicinity of where they deploy. Of course they’re entitled to defend themselves if they’re ambushed with rockets and machine-guns, then it’s NOT them who should be held responsible for having to shoot potential Pakistanis. They’re doing their job, it’s those bastard treacherous ‘Pakistanis’ who should be accused. Imran Khan always talks about the ‘supremacy of law’ but he is certainly not interested in bringing the law or justice on those ‘Pakistanis’ who try to destroy their own country and do the kind of stuff we are seeing just on the next thread. Imran's rhetoric is misdirecting and dangerous, we should know better than to be so primitive now that our country is in an open war.

 

[roadrunner]

If the Pakistani security forces had not sided with the US in attacking its own citizens, there would have been no "rise of the Taliban"...

This is a dangerous lie and those who voice it should be ashamed. The Pakistani forces did not 'side with the US' by 'attacking own citizens'. The Pakistan Army only attacked Al-Qaeda and the tribes who were defending them, and even then un-armed civilians are NEVER targeted. The Pakistan Army is not a legion of baby killers who storm into every house and gun down all the children and women in the vicinity of where they deploy. Of course they’re entitled to defend themselves if they’re ambushed with rockets and machine-guns, then it’s NOT them who should be held responsible for having to shoot potential Pakistanis. They’re doing their job, it’s those bastard treacherous ‘Pakistanis’ who should be accused. Imran Khan always talks about the ‘supremacy of law’ but he is certainly not interested in bring the law or justice on those ‘Pakistanis’ who try to destroy their own country and do the kind of stuff we are seeing just on the next thread. Imran's rhetoric is misdirecting and dangerous, we should know better than to be so primitive now that our country is in an open war.

It wasn't IK that said it, I said it. And I don't believe it to be a lie in the slightest.

The Pakistan Army has attacked its citizens. Fact.

Now we can enter into the realms of whether they were all bad or good. I personally do not believe the Pakistani Army would attack Pakistanis recklessly - nor did I state such. On several occasions I stated that the Pakistani Army should carry out ops instead of drone strikes, because they would not be so reckless. However, it is a fact that Pakistan Army has attacked its own citizens, and it is also a fact that Pakistan is receiving US $$ in return for its support. It is the perception this creates on the ground that the Pakistani government is in league with the US so that when drone strikes blow up innocent women, children etc, people hold both to account. This then is a source of terrorism within Pakistan.

Imran Khan's point is entirely sound.

 

[Kasrkin]

You keep on saying that the Pakistani Army 'attacked own citizens, attacked own citizens' when the fact of the matter is this is so misleading as to being a lie. The Pakistan Army attacks terrorists, rebels, insurrectionists, miscreants, saboteurs who operate in the lawless areas of Pakistan where the laws the normal Pakistani citizens are subject don't even apply!

When you say that the PA ‘attacks citizens to please US’ and use US military assistance as ‘proof’ of this, you’re telling the majority of the people that the PA is not fighting for their national interests, that they’re shameless slaves to America who’re killing kin just to achieve some financial gain. You destroy the one thing the PA needs right now, that is trust, faith and respect and you give the terrorists their greatest weapon, LEGITIMACY. You justify and facilitate opposition and resentment against the US strikes (that kill more AQ militants as a matter of RECORD) turning to into bullets and RPGs smashing into the windscreens of our brothers, fathers and sons in uniform.

If the US pierces our sovereignty through drone strikes now and again, that does NOT justify or explain the actions of those who RAPE our sovereignty and integrity again and again on a daily basis and have been doing so BEFORE the drone strikes began.

Pakistan Army ONLY attacks THOSE who have CHOSEN to be a THREAT to the NATION and to the 160 MILLION people who call it HOME. The army does NOT attack ‘CITIZENS’ JUST BECAUSE IT WANTS TO ‘PLEASE’ ANYONE, especially not the US. The reality is that the Army is fighting and dying FOR the very same ‘citizens’ Imran Khan says the Army likes to kill.

How could you be so primitive in your outlook of the ground situation?

 

[roadrunner]

You keep on saying that the Pakistani Army 'attacked own citizens, attacked own citizens' when the fact of the matter is this is so misleading as to being a lie. The Pakistan Army attacks terrorists, rebels, insurrectionists, miscreants, saboteurs who operate in the lawless areas of Pakistan where the laws the normal Pakistani citizens are subject don't even apply!

They may well be terrorists, they may be miscreants, they are still Pakistani citizens. That is a simple fact. There's no point denying it.

I don't think I mentioned what persuasion they were.

I think my initial point was, though it's going back a while, that Pakistan Army used military means to solve a problem that was better resolved through re-education and development through pressurization by the US. That I still feel is true. I also think Musharraf had little choice. It was a problem, but it was contained, and could have been remedied without stirring up people.

When you say that the PA ‘attacks citizens to please US’ and use US military assistance as ‘proof’ of this, you’re telling the majority of the people that the PA is not fighting for their national interests, that they’re shameless slaves to America who’re killing kin just to achieve some financial gain. You destroy the one thing the PA needs right now, that is trust, faith and respect and you give the terrorists their greatest weapon, LEGITIMACY. You justify and facilitate opposition and resentment against the US strikes (that kill more AQ militants as a matter of RECORD) turning to into bullets and RPGs smashing into the windscreens of our brothers, fathers and sons in uniform.

You're missing my point.

My point is that the perception of the common person on the ground is that $$ are used to buy off drone strikes that kill innocent people, and that is why you will get some people who will sign under the dotted line to become rebels/insurgents/terrorists, whatever you want to call them.

I've not said anyone is a slave to America so far. But yes, some Pakistanis are, that's just an opinion.

If the US pierces our sovereignty through drone strikes now and again, that does NOT justify or explain the actions of those who RAPE our sovereignty and integrity again and again on a daily basis and have been doing so BEFORE the drone strikes began.

How is Pakistan's soverignty raped by its own people?

They commit crimes and so on, but it's nothing to do with invading Pakistan's soverignty.

Pakistan Army ONLY attacks THOSE who have CHOSEN to be a THREAT to the NATION and to the 160 MILLION people who call it HOME. The army does NOT attack ‘CITIZENS’ JUST BECAUSE IT WANTS TO ‘PLEASE’ ANYONE, especially not the US. The reality is that the Army is fighting and dying FOR the very same ‘citizens’ Imran Khan says the Army likes to kill.

Pakistan Army might do that, I've not speculated otherwise as yet, even though it's entirely possible some cover ups have occurred.

How could you be so primitive in your outlook of the ground situation?

You're the one unable to grasp what's being said to you, not the other way round. I've stated numerous times it doesn't matter what I think of the situation, it's the perception that's important. You need to try and absorb that simple fact before writing tripe. Perception of those that feel the US blows Pakistani houses up, then pays $$ in exchange.

 

[SSGPA1]

No doubt about IK's sincerety but sadly he continues to speak and write for public consumption. This article may gte hime votes but he will never become a leader.

In order to become a leader, one need to take tough decissions and guide people through tough conditions.

I need a leader who can stand up and do the following:

1. PA will keep fighting with anyone who will challenge the govt. and proove it by his actions.

2. Send Afghan refugees back as they have a central govt.

3. Let neighbours know that Pakistan will not support terrorism in their countries but will not tolerate any sponsorship of terrorism in Pakistan, absolute zero tolerance.

4. Stop drones at any cost.

5. Stop Pakistanis crossing into Afghanistan and take action against those who are doing so.

6. Openly and clearly explain to the people of Pakistan that these actions are required in the best ineterest of Pakistan and there is no turning back.

There will be a lot of sacrifices and it will take long but at least Pakistanis will have a clear understanding of the state policy and goals.

 

[Kasrkin]

They may well be terrorists, they may be miscreants, they are still Pakistani citizens. That is a simple fact. There's no point denying it. I don't think I mentioned what persuasion they were.

This is pathetic. What I'm saying is that we're in a war and you're misdirecting the public by telling them, again and again, that the Pakistan Army is killing Pakistanis INSTEAD of having the decency to at least acknowledge that they're those Pakistanis trying to DESTROY Pakistan anyway.

It’s like you have a murderer and a rapist, who has to be executed in order to keep society safe. And you start a slander campaign against the executioner based on 'he kills men for a living'. And when I point out how unfair and selective you're being with the truth and the dangerous consequences of your propaganda, you say 'but technically it’s accurate so I’m going to do it'. You obviously have an agenda when you spread this nonsense and its despicable. If you kill someone in self-defense, someone who tried to kill you, and I go telling the whole world that you slaughtered a person and thus you’re a murder. And when someone challenges me I tell them ‘but technically its true, I never said the guy he killed didn’t try to kill him first.’ You’re trying to score a shallow, cheap point over a pitiful technically when you very well know that reason I took up this issue with you: you’re assisting terrorist propaganda by facilitating rhetoric which is simply not true. And UTTERLY, COMPLETELY DAMAGING and mainly responsible for the situation we find ourselves to in the first place.

The Pakistan Army going after known foreign terrorists, manning their own borders and defending themselves when threatened is NOT the reason the Taliban have been able to advance the way they have. It is because opportunists like Imran Khan tell people in newspapers, TVs, mosques that this is a rational, understandable, natural and righteous reaction to the Army’s “crimes” and thus the Army is sucked dry of much needed political support or goodwill all the while the militants get force-multipliers and confidence.

If the Pakistani security forces had not sided with the US in attacking its own citizens, there would have been no "rise of the Taliban"...

This is the type of BS that dumps all the blame on the Pakistan Army and lets people live in denial of the malice represented by people like TTP.

You're missing my point. My point is that the perception of the common person on the ground is that $$ are used to buy off drone strikes that kill innocent people…

Exactly, and my point is that its people like YOU who instead of discouraging this clumsy and inaccurate propaganda, do MOST to encourage it and give it a legitimate place in the minds of the people. Imran Khan should be telling people that there is a line, that killing countrymen through suicide bombings because US drones are targeting Al-Qaeda in FATA is WRONG and under no circumstance can be justified. MORE people die due to terrorism in Pakistan than due to drone attacks, hundreds of time more and YET you stick on the drones and rant and rant as if it explains everything?

How is Pakistan's soverignty raped by its own people?

Pakistan’s sovereignty is raped by the thousands of foreign militants who cross over and use our land for their revolting activities on a permanent basis. And Pakistani traitors (who are given ideological legitimacy by scumbags like Imran Khan) are the ones ruining our integrity when they kill Pakistani service-men, behead people they don’t like, terrorize and intimidated locals, set up parallel governments, etc.

it's entirely possible some cover ups have occurred.

At the end of the day you believe what you want to. You want to believe the PA is capable of this in order to justify your vulgar contentions. There has never been an Abu-Graib or Haditha in Pakistan, but even spectator and impressive military operations like the Red Mosques are politicized and exploited by Army haters like… Imran Khan for instance! If God forbid ever there was such, then no doubt Imran Khan would be gleeful but I know it’s not going to happen since I have faith in the Army and what it represents.

I've stated numerous times it doesn't matter what I think of the situation, it's the perception that's important.

But to me it does matter what you think, and I’m horrified. You think I haven’t heard the “views” you’re happily embracing before? You think I haven’t challenged people that on this very forum?

Perception of those that feel the US blows Pakistani houses up, then pays $$ in exchange.

And Imran Khan has done so much to encourage this perception, but nothing to discourage it just because it supposedly fits well with his political ambitions.

Saying the Pakistan Army does not repulse innocent people where ever it deploys “forcing” them to become terrorists is not tripe. But the way Imran Khan talks about the situation as if withdrawing the evil Pakistani soldiers is the perfect solution is that world, now that is tripe.

 

[fatman17]

It's an ideology Asim that was spread by the Americans, the Saudis, and Zia in the 80s.

If they could be educated to think Talibanically, they can be uneducated to think moderately.

Joke of the f*****g Year!

 

[*-City Of Bradford-*]

If Imran Khan knows how the deal with the mess why doesn't he get in their himself and sort it out. The current currupt politicians are useless.

 

[batmannow]

IMRAN continues to play fool!
TEHRIK-E-INSAF PAKISTAN, chairman imrankhan, said that , it was written in quran that , making a accord & then breaking the accrod is a crime, & sufi mohmed & TALIBANs HAS broken the peace accord , in swat & therfore they are responsible for that.
imran putting himself in the foots of QAZI HUSSAIN AHMED , Former amir Jamat-e-Islami, & following his way!

GEO Pakistan
Sufi or Brahamdagh Bugti can’t cause Pakistan’s fall: Qazi
Updated at: 1720 PST, Sunday, April 26, 2009
GUJRAT: Former amir Jamat-e-Islami, Qazi Hussain Ahmed Sunday said it not right for Sufi Muhammad to call judges of Supreme Court and High Court as rebels.

Talking to media at a program here, Qazi said Pakistan cannot break because of Sufi Muhammad, Taliban or Brahamdagh Bugti. It is actually the US that wants Pakistan’s fall, he maintained.

Former JI amir said President Asif Ali Zardari and Asfandyar Wali are accepting Nizam-e-Adl Regulation because it is being imposed at gunpoint.

Qazi Hussain Ahmed & imran both belived in the past that bashing , USA is the best way to get popularity in pakistani nation, they will keep doing that till they can get fair price of thier hard work(bashing usa).

foolish , foolish , foolish!

what solution imran have of the crunnt situation now? by these kind of statments ,he will lose everything politicly, he is a golden boy of QAZI ?
nothing else!