How should Pakistanis view the Mughals?

[Tamerlane]

Mughal are Tartars not Mongols. From same region but different people. There was some intermixing with Mongol but Mughal are different from mongols.

It’s complicated. The Tatars were Turkic people who were conquered by the Mongols. They were raped into becoming ethnically Mongoloid. Even to this day all the way up to Russia and Eastern Europe you have people with Mongol blood and features from the Mongol invasions.

In Turkey you can see the mixture of European and Mongoloid in many people.

The Tatars of Russia are very mongoloid looking, mixed with European blood. So are the Turkic speaking people of Central Asia, including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc.

The word Mughal is Persian for Mongol. They themselves called themselves Mongol. They were descendants of Genghis Khan, Tamerlane etc.

Crimean Tatar women

 

[Genghis khan1]

It’s complicated. The Tatars were Turkic people who were conquered by the Mongols. They were raped into becoming ethnically Mongoloid. Even to this day all the way up to Russia and Eastern Europe you have people with Mongol blood and features from the Mongol invasions.

In Turkey you can see the mixture of European and Mongoloid in many people.

The Tatars of Russia are very mongoloid looking, mixed with European blood. So are the Turkic speaking people of Central Asia, including Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc.

The word Mughal is Persian for Mongol. They themselves called themselves Mongol. They were descendants of Genghis Khan, Tamerlane etc.

Crimean Tatar women

View attachment 924823

True, there is lot of intermixing between different Turkic tribe and history with Mongols. Tatars are all over the place. converted to different religions base on which tribe went where, Mongols are not Turks and Mughal are from Turkic tribe Tatar. Tamerlane maternally side was Mongol but father was Turkic. Persians started mispronounced Mongols to Mughals because Mughal identified as Turk-o-Mongol.

There are Turkic tribes in China but they are not ethnically Chinese or Han. Even tho they have Chinese eyes.

 

[iamnobody]

same as baniyas of SIndh

@El Sidd

Are Muslim Sindhis as good as Hindu Sindhis at business?

 

[Olympus81]

@El Sidd

Are Muslim Sindhis as good as Hindu Sindhis at business?

I am being stereotypical here, but Sindhis are known for being cunning businessmen, not necessarily good.

Sindhi businessmen, on both side of the isle, India and Pakistan, again being stereotypical, engage in scams, dishonest business practices.

Good businessmen, baniyas, mostly are marwaris, gujratis, boris, memons, ismaelis, chiniotis.

 

[iamnobody]

I am being stereotypical here, but Sindhis are known for being cunning businessmen, not necessarily good.

Sindhi businessmen, on both side of the isle, India and Pakistan, again being stereotypical, engage in scams, dishonest business practices.

Good businessmen, baniyas, mostly are marwaris, gujratis, boris, memons, ismaelis, chiniotis.

Marwari, Gujaratis are ethical businessmen. I never heard that before.

They are cheaters too.

 

[Olympus81]

Marwari, Gujaratis are ethical businessmen. I never heard that before.

They are cheaters too.

Bad apples always there. Sindhis in South East Asia have been involved in taking bank loans and doing a runner, manufacturing fake brand accessories, involved in VAT refund scams etc. Alot of Sindhis are enterprising and have huge trading businesses and restaurants.

India’s Gujrat and Maharashtra’s GDP each is more than Pakistan’s.

They are what you’d call baniyas (gujratis and marwaris). The Gujratis have taken the diamond industry for instance, of India to new heights.

Marwaris are essentially in all types of business from trade, SMEs, manufacturing, service. Maharashtra, the Indian state, has developed quite a bit.

Sindhis, of India had to migrate from Sindh in Pakistan, hence they don’t have a root of their own to compare themselves with Gujrat or Maharashtra. Maybe any comparison would be unfair.

 

[Tamerlane]

Historians sound alarm over removal of Muslim rulers from Indian schoolbooks

NEW DELHI: The recent removal of passages referring to the Mughal Empire from Indian schoolbooks has sparked outrage among academics, who fear the move aims to erase from memory the significant role Muslims have played in the history of India.

Historians sound alarm over removal of Muslim rulers from Indian schoolbooks

NEW DELHI: The recent removal of passages referring to the Mughal Empire from Indian schoolbooks has sparked outrage among academics, who fear the move aims to erase from memory the significant role Muslims have played in the history of India. The new textbooks on history and politics...

www.arabnews.com

 

[Maula Jatt]

Historians sound alarm over removal of Muslim rulers from Indian schoolbooks

NEW DELHI: The recent removal of passages referring to the Mughal Empire from Indian schoolbooks has sparked outrage among academics, who fear the move aims to erase from memory the significant role Muslims have played in the history of India.

Historians sound alarm over removal of Muslim rulers from Indian schoolbooks

NEW DELHI: The recent removal of passages referring to the Mughal Empire from Indian schoolbooks has sparked outrage among academics, who fear the move aims to erase from memory the significant role Muslims have played in the history of India. The new textbooks on history and politics...

www.arabnews.com

Bro f endia, this threads on us Pakistanis
Leave em out of it as than they'll come and openly defecate all over this thread

Let's just keep it to Pakistanis and our relationship with em

 

[iamnobody]

Bad apples always there. Sindhis in South East Asia have been involved in taking bank loans and doing a runner, manufacturing fake brand accessories, involved in VAT refund scams etc. Alot of Sindhis are enterprising and have huge trading businesses and restaurants.

India’s Gujrat and Maharashtra’s GDP each is more than Pakistan’s.

They are what you’d call baniyas (gujratis and marwaris). The Gujratis have taken the diamond industry for instance, of India to new heights.

Marwaris are essentially in all types of business from trade, SMEs, manufacturing, service. Maharashtra, the Indian state, has developed quite a bit.

Sindhis, of India had to migrate from Sindh in Pakistan, hence they don’t have a root of their own to compare themselves with Gujrat or Maharashtra. Maybe any comparison would be unfair.

Gujaratis and Marwadis too steal money
from the Banks.

FYI, Maharashtra was already developed before the arrival of Gujaratis and Marwaris. If Gujaratis and Marwadis were so talented, they would stay in their respect states instead of migrating to Maharashtra.

Gujaratis and Marwadis live in western countries too. But why hasn't their community produced a Warren Buffet or a Bill Gates?

The truth is that in India, these crooks are above the law. They can cheat and steal as much as they want.

 

[Novus ordu seclorum]

In my experience muhajjir populace consider Mughals as their own in every sense of the word

Because it was Hindustani in mileu and character. Uzbekistan and Uzbeks do not claim the Moghul empire. Empires of India which Bharatis and Pakistanis often boast about - ancient Ayudhya and Maurya to medieval Delhi and Mughal were Hindustani.

The Mughal clan were the face of the empire. We do not get anything of religion, faith and values from them. I get those from my own ancestry, Quran and Sunnah. Most Mughals were borderline Muslim, if at all. Humayun lived according to astrology, most drank alcohol, some were probably homosexual or bisexual, and others had murderous rivalry with their siblings.

The actual empire of Mongols did not last long and left no legacy to speak of because it was built on ego, violence, control and hate. It takes a certain baseline tradition, aptitude and cultural finesse to build lasting empires (which Bharatis and Pakistanis do not have). Here is the proud achievement of Bharat and Pakistan [dividing India since Mahabharat war].

On the Ground: The elaborate ceremony that says everything you need to know about India-Pakistan tensions

Towering soldiers wearing wide fantail hats face off across a pair of metal gates on one of the most heavily militarized borders in the world.

www.latimes.com

 

[El Sidd]

Might as well add Russians and Chinese to the list!! Since when did Mongol eat baryani, beef nahari, kabobs. Which Mongol ruled over India?

Didn't Babur claim Timur legacy?

 

[El Sidd]

@El Sidd

Are Muslim Sindhis as good as Hindu Sindhis at business?

They are quite astute in conducting their business and are held in great regard. The Muslims ones may well be a little merciful than the Hindu counterpart.

 

[hatehs]

Manalla Cream

How does that negate my point?


Have you ever wondered why Modi promotes Sufism?

Least jahil indoo . Abey gobarchaap, Deobandis are Sufis too. Stop watching indoo ollywood films as a resource to understand Islam.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

I see that some nationalists have divided opinions on Mughals

Pashtuns tribes of Pakistan were clearly in conflict with Mughals- that whole Pashto language of the jinns thing

Punjab I would say it's complicated on one hand we historically celebrated fights against the Mughals ( folk Vaar ballods, my grandpa had a collection dk where they are now)

On the other hand a bunch of Mughal Generals, wazirs, prime ministers, administrators, governor's came from the region

In my experience muhajjir populace consider Mughals as their own in every sense of the word to the point in the early decades of Pakistan, as a state for Muslims of South Asia we were supposed to be a successor state to the Mughals (like how Russian czars were to the Romans or Byzantines were to the Romans - it's not exactly a new concept but we're a republic not an empire, so I'd discourage people to think along those lines)

What "kinda" relationship should we have as a people, country with Mughals?
@M. Sarmad @hydrabadi_arab

Mughals were viewed very negatively in modern-day Pakistan up until the 1900s when the rise of Indian Muslim nationalism began to reevaluate the Mughals as some utopian Islamic state, a symbol of bygone glory. The reality is that Mughals saw modern-day Pakistan as a backwater to be exploited and overtaxed to build their extravagant palaces, gardens, monuments and lavish lifestyles.

The only way Pakistanis can claim the Mughals is through historical revisionism and weird forms of Muslim nationalism that the Mughals themselves did not follow nor care about.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

When did Muslims become majority in undivided Punjab?

Belittling Mughals is pretty dumb if you happen to be a Muslim. Without their forced conversion strategy, there would be no Pakistan and Bangladesh. And Hindu India would not have 350 million Muslims

This entire forced conversion nonsense is a cringe coping mechanism that has been refuted time and time again.

Modern-day Pakistan became Muslim majority far before the arrival of the Mughals.

If forced conversion was a "strategy" employed by these Muslim dynasties. Their core territories and power base of Delhi and the Cow-belt region (now epicenter of Hindu nationalism) would be overwhelmingly Muslim today, not their fringe border regions of Bengal and the Indus region.