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How secular, really, is India?

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How secular, really, is India?

Activist-Author VB Rawat’s review article on the plight of christians in secular india, and John Dayal’s Book “Equity’, which interrogates freedom of faith in the country.
29 May 07

Review Article

Christians: A Faith under assault in Secular India

By Vidya Bhushan Rawat

Christians from all over India are gathering to protest against the Hindutva assault on their faiths in different parts of the country. On May 29th, 2007, when they all assemble at Jantar Mantar seeking government’s intervention to protect their institutions and people, it would remind all of us that in plural society, every one need to appreciate the contribution of linguistic and religious minorities in its development. The gathering of the Christians therefore should not be seen in isolation and must have support from all of us who believe that best bet for India’s survival is cohesiveness of different ethnic, religious, secular groups. In the past few months, the goons of the Hindutva have targeted the community and their faith leaders in various north Indian states particularly Rajasthan, Himachal Pradesh, Orissa, Chhatisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Punjab and Gujarat. States like Uttarakhand and Himachal Pradesh where Christian population is abysmally low are bringing out special laws to prohibit conversion. Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chhatishgarh, Jharkhand have already enacted laws prohibiting conversion. It is these states where extra constitutional groups of the Hindutva have taken it on themselves to do not only moral policing over people’s behavior but also convert the tribal and dalits back to brahmanical fold. With Hindutva devotees at the seats of power, the goons are having free day to kill any one at their will. The assaults on Christian institutions have wider implications. The freedom of the gangs of Hindutva has become agony for all peace loving people including the minorities. We must also understand that minorities suffer from certain dilemmas and such assault isolate them further and strengthen the theocratic leadership in the community. Moreover, the assault on Muslims and Christians is deliberate to suppress the internal contradictions with in the Varna system. With UP gone out of their hand, the Sangh Parivar would re-launch its assault on the Muslims and Christians so that the assertion of Dalits, adivasis and backward classes is diverted against the ‘enemies’ and Brahmins and brahmindom have an unchallenged supremacy in the broader Hindu Samaj.

In many of these states the Bharatiya Janata Party, the political wing of the Hindutva’s discriminating and destructive ideology, is in power. Much before they slaughtered Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, it was the Christians, their churches and their educational institutions, which were targeted by the Hindutva’s lumpen organizations. This unaccountability of the Hindutva and its various offshoots emerge from the open encouragement and support from the ruling parties in these states. It is not only outrageous but also unconstitutional that the state governments run by the Bharatiya Janata Party behave conspicuously and in double speak justifying these assaults in the name of intrusion of foreign culture and threat to India’s unity.

Look, what happened in Gujarat today where the Kolis are up in the street seeking justice. Narendra Modi never loses sight of targeting the Muslims and Christians, whom he fears, are proselytizing the tribal by throwing money at them. Absolutely farcical Mr. Modi, Gujarati Banias and Brahmins have enough money to buy equally great product as the evangelical groups, so please suggest them to go in the villages, sit with the Dalits and tribals, share their agonies and pains. But we know it well, that is impossible in brahmanical Gujarat who used the multiculturalism of the west for their benefits but became Hindu chauvinists when the issue of multiculturalism cropped up in their own state. In other way, Gujarat’s psyche has become totally brahmanised and a mere change of Narendra Modi would not work. An assertion of Dalits, Adivasis and backward communities (Gujarat’s backward are Hinduised), for their political rights in coalition with Muslims and Christians, would pave the way for throwing a challenge against the current Hindutva culture prevailing in the state.

One of the issues that John Dayal has raised in his book is the issue of right to profess the faith of your choice. The Hindutva groups obviously are not comfortable with it as they feel it as a threat. But conversion is a political tool and apolitical conversion has cost Dalits a lot. The first conversion that jolted the brahmanical structure was not in 1951 when Baba Saheb Ambedkar embraced Buddhism in 1951 but the 1982 conversion of hundreds of Dalits to Islam in Meenakhsipuram, in Tamilnadu. For Hindutva every body who is dissatisfied with their faith has been paid handsome amount of money to convert. Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies, as most of the converts are still much below the poverty line. If conversion had fetched good money and good life in monitory terms, I am sure the Brahmins, Banias and other upper caste Hindus would have been the first to grab the opportunity.

We also tend to ignore the fact that the government has itself divided various Dalit communities. It has knowingly done the biggest conversion in the history of India for including Dalits, tribal, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains and all those who are not a Muslim or Christian, into a Hindu category. That has been the biggest blunder and conversion in the history of India and must be opposed with as all these communities have their distinct cultural identities. Opposition to Dalit converts come from that fact Dalits are considered as Hindus. So the government, the Hindu reformist want them to first face the untouchability and social oppression again to get the benefit of the reservation?

Despite my deep antipathy for Justice Rang Nath Mishra for the horrible and politically motivated report that he presented for the 1984 victims, the latest efforts by the Mishra Commission need our support, because it strengthen defend the right of an individual to profess any faith at the personal level without loosing his fundamental right. Asha Das’s objections must be rejected before it takes dangerous turn. Nevertheless, it is also essential for the Church and Christian leaders to introspect about their Dalit agenda. It is easier for them to ask from the government for the rights of the Dalit Christians but at the same point of time, let them come out categorically as what efforts have they made to empower Dalits with in their community. A Community which has in its possession India’s best known colleges, medical colleges, Engineering colleges, media institutions, academic institutions etc. What percentage of reservation has been given to Dalits and tribals in these institutions? If Christians were really willing to mobilize the Dalits on their side, empty slogans would not work. They have to be seen to be working for the Dalits. They cannot expect Dalits to follow their upper caste leadership.

Christians are not hated in power structure even when the Hindutva thugs target their priests. One of the reason for that is that the growing feeling that Christian own large educational institutions which actually strengthen the Hindutva. The bitterest critique of Christendom comes from those who were educated at these prestigious institutions. They will not targets prestigious institutions in Delhi, Mumbai or elsewhere because most of their family members come out from these colleges. We must understand the philosophy behind this as my friend Ram Puniyani often suggest. That the RSS and its Parivar have most of their ideologues coming from these institutions but when the church and its educational institutions goes in the villages and teach English and modern education to Adivasis and Dalits, that raises eyebrows. Education would open the mind of these people and will instigate them to challenge the racist philosophy of Hindutva. Tomorrow they will challenge the concept of merit of the upper castes? Unfortunately, this is not the case. Barring a few exceptions, things have not worked. Education is for profiteering and not much has been done at the village level. There have been compromises from the Christian leadership on this issue and their stand on the emancipation of Dalits and reservation.

Amid all this, one person who has unequivocally and uncompromisingly spoke against Hindutva and its fundamentalist ideology is, Dr John Dayal. For the past few years, he has been very active putting the political agenda of the community and taking a strong action line against the communal outfits though it is also a known fact that for his strong secular approach and convictions he is not the best person of the religious leadership.

‘A Matter of Equity: Freedom of Faith in Secular India’, is an outstanding work of John Dayal. Though a large number of articles have been compiled and updated for what were published in the Indian Currents yet bringing them all together with other important documents, this book serve a great purpose for all those who are interested to know about the Christian community and its work in India as well as the vitriolic campaign of the Sangh Parivar against the Christian Educational Institutions

John Dayal has not only been a critique of the Sangh Parivar and its goons but he has asked the Church also to look for its role. He had documented major violence against Christians in the last 10 years. May he get the strength to document and assist other secular groups also, those who may not like the evangelical groups very much like their disliking for the Muslim and Hindu radical groups. Yes, John Dayal is Christian community’s secular face who has stood against all kind of oppression, for the freedom of expression, which he has so wonderfully documented in his book with Ajoy Bose as well as his campaign against the fascist government of Narendra Modi in Gujarat. Therefore, it is not surprising that while many of the Church friends were not happy with this uncompromising man who has no interest of ‘protecting’ his prime location institutions. Hence those uncompromising men actually help the community more than those who pretend to help them in the name of ‘protecting’ their community identity. And these points reflect sharply in his analysis when he says that National Minorities Commission does not really care about the rights of the Christians.

Some of the chapters in the book are great essays and shows John Dayal’s grasp over the problem and his efforts to link the Christian community with the varied secular groups.
‘A Christian perspective to National Integration’ is one such excellent essay in the book where Dayal ask to create for awareness for Human Rights and developing civil society, which according to him ‘call for sacrifice’.

The article ‘ Ignorance, Bigotry and bloodshed: Perspective of confrontation, coexistence and Peace in India and South Asia,’ is simply superb and need to be read by all those who wish to know the birth of various ethnic-religious identities in India and South Asia. It also helps understand the culture of appreciation towards those who are not ‘like’ us and differ with one another on not only in outlook and perception but also language and religion.

Another important message was the ‘liberation theology’ of the Church which liberated the Shanar women in Travancore and Tirunalveli district of erstwhile Travancore state, where the Dalit women were prohibited from covering their breasts. The missionaries helped them a life of dignity and self-respect. An unknown story of Sophie James Joseph, who was a nurse in St. Stephen’s hospital and saved life of a Sikh family when they were butchered by the upper caste thugs of the Congress party in the aftermath of the assassination of Indira Gandhi.

The Christian community needs to heed his advice to introspect its own work among the Dalits. He writes: ‘ How have we responded to the demands of Dalits. Not low cost schools for low caste people but high quality English schools which will allow the Dalit Children to find their place under the sun in modern age. The answer has to be given soon.’ This call was made by Dayal in September 2001 but seven years onwards he need to ask the church again and the catholic groups again whether their call for right to convert and rights of the Christian Dalit is confined to number games only? What substantial work has the church institutions done during the past 7 years to uplift the Dalits. The Christian Institutions have enormous powers and strength to help the Dalits. Two months back. Ambrose Pinto, principal of St Joseph’s College Banglore revealed to me how his college has reserved seats for Dalits, OBCs and minorities and that it still remain one of the best colleges of Banglore. And there is no dent to its meritocracy, perhaps a right answer for the principal of St Stephan’s College, which constructed the brahmanical think tank of India and officially went against the policy of reservation of the Dalits and OBCs in the Supreme Court, under the pretext of being a minority institution. The Church institutions must respond as how many seats are being reserved for the Dalits and tribal in its elite institutions and how much help is being offered for that.


Another superb piece from John Dayal comes in the form of ‘Hindutva’s Dollar Trail’, which exposes the funding mechanism of the hate campaigners of the Sangh Parivar. That India Development and Relief Fund ( IDRF) has been supplying the funds to Vikas Bharati and 9 other offshoots of the Sangh parivar is a shocking revelation. Between 1994-2000 it contributed 3.2 million USD to these hate mongers in India. The government of India must look into it and must find more details of such organizations which spread communal hatred in communities in India. Such funds must be treated as per the terrorist funding against which the US administration and UK are waging a decisive battle. Unfortunate part is that the Christian world is deeply divided today and still consider Islam as their enemy number one and hence other hate mongers get benefit of these things. Even in Britain, the right wing Hindu groups have got great protection from those in power. Interestingly, for the Sangh Zealots, there is another interesting revelation in the book. The 106 % growth of Indian population predominantly upper caste Hindus between 1990-2000. Sangh Parivar is too much disturbed with Christian growth rate while unable to understand that if conversion was taking place that strongly the population of the community would not have reduced during the past five years.

While the government is going strongly in providing data related to the condition of Muslims in India. Muslims have been discriminated in administration and political system with the ‘sin’ of creating Pakistan. It would be grossly wrong not to find out the problems of the Christian population in India, a majority of whom happens to be Dalits and tribal. The recent NSSO data have revealed that the poverty in Christian community is far below than that of the Muslims. While Muslim being the second majority of the country must get their due share in power structure, we must also ask the government to appoint a similar condition to study the condition of Christians as they are the main victims of the Sangh Parivar’s violence against them

The Christian community must introspect why it is unable to counter Sangh Parivar’s propaganda and assault on its churches and machinery. It must learn a lesson or two from its Muslim brethrens. Muslims are a politically mobile community in India particularly in Uttar-Pradesh and Bihar. Their political understanding is far superior to other communities. Muslims have depended on their own work and never on any government dole out and therefore can still live their life in greater dignity. Christians on the other hand remained highly apolitical community. People like John Dayal are in a minority in the community for they speak the truth without feeling guilty or apprehensive of the Sangh Parivar and its goons. Ofcourse, the price has been bigger in the form of target and attacks but they have remained uncompromising. The Christians by and large remain part of power structure particularly the upper caste elite of them and therefore do not hesitate even in compromising the interest of the community. John Dayal remain exception among its elite who we can find at every platform from those speaking against communalism to fight against unsustainable globalisation or assault on Dalits and tribal or special economic Zone.

It is therefore important for the religious groups to leave the space for the political people to lead the movement for the human rights of its people in India. A community under theocratic leadership cannot fight its battle of survival, which is essentially political. And hence John Dayal’s words need to be heard with great care.

Name of the Book: A matter of Equity: Freedom of Faith in Secular India
Author : John Dayal
Anamika Publishers & Distributors
Year of Publication : 2007
Page: 487
Price : Rs 800 ( Hard Cover)

http://manukhsi.blogspot.com/2007/05/equity-of-faith-in-secular-india.html

http://johndayal.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/05/how-secular-really-is-india.htm
 
Neo do you really want to debate this with me?

I'll ask you a first question, Is Sangh Parivar extremist? no is bajrang dal extremist? yes.
Is All India muslim board extremist? no, is SIMI extremist? yes.

There were indeed quite some violations and irrational killings here and there, but thats the end of story?

First thing first, does the missionaries and evangelicals violates Indian consitution or not? Yes or Not?

If yes show me what is the government doing to stop the violation.

If they are not doing anything, dont you think this extremism among the smaller groups has much to do with the pre-formation of the previous groups?

Can you clap in one hand? "ek hath se taliyan bajti hai keya?"
 
Just checked his article... You cracked me up Neo, But keep it up, if you want to debate your welcome, and if you want to go ot that extent to come to India and debate, I'l take you to places to see for yourself, but please stop posting this crap.

For heavens sake just read his article, checked his blog OMG HAHAHAHAHAHA he quotes arundhati roy, Medha patkar THE BLOODY COMMUNISTS!

Pro-reservation based on caste, and he suports it? ROTFLMAO when supreme court has denied the thing in verdict.

A simple theory, Neo you stay in a UP village and your a hindu of bhojpur caste, and I'm a Rajput, we both are poor, your under SC i'm under Gen , so you will get fruits of reservation, I wont is this justified?

Another superb piece from John Dayal comes in the form of ‘Hindutva’s Dollar Trail’, which exposes the funding mechanism of the hate campaigners of the Sangh Parivar. That India Development and Relief Fund ( IDRF) has been supplying the funds to Vikas Bharati and 9 other offshoots of the Sangh parivar is a shocking revelation. Between 1994-2000 it contributed 3.2 million USD to these hate mongers in India.
This is as good as posting articles from extremist websites, no thank you I'm not buying this jack.
 
Kindly read my response in other thread, I recently did had a good discussion with Jana on this issue, and explain what Hinduism has done first to harm the interests of other religion first.

Individual rights and liberties are in the realm of civics. Dharma etc is in the realm of religion and faith of the individual. It is the civic rights of individuals that protects the individuals right to belief. Dharma or otherwise.

As for as the right to practice ones religion. is actually an Individual right to free speech. Basically one stands on the soap box and freely speaks about the virtues of his/her religion and it gives an opportunity to others who may disagree and provide information contraty to the original speaker. This arbitration of ideas in an open society forces the bubble of truth to rise above. Thats the theory and concept. There is nothing wrong with that.

In an institutionalzed evangalism.. Its not restricted to individuals... Its a conspiracy for ethnic and cultural cleansing of societies. Primarily of foreign power. The Catholic Church to the Southern Baptist convention, they conspire to ethnically cleanse societies. They strategize, they recruit Ph.Ds and MBA and statisticians to do compettive analysis and collect vast sums of monies with the sole intent of cultural cleansing. The Joshua project is one such organization.

http://www.joshuaproject.net/

This does not fall under individual liberties and right to free speech. This falls under conspiracy in the scale of spread of communism.

East Timur is a prime example. Whats happening in Eastern India is another example.

So is this legitimate secularism your talking of?


It is really laughable Neo that to justify evangelism You now are posting articles from emdha patkhar, arundhati roy and the likes, great! :D

Do you really want to get in the debate of what the blog speaks? I'm ready to do that but flamers should be kept outside.

The moment I read Medha patkhar, Arundhati roy I've said no thank you, you dont have to reside to communism to malign India Neo, there are many other insecurity we have including lack of proper education to many things.
 
the more I'm reading this article more I am laughing my *** off,

Christians are not hated in power structure even when the Hindutva thugs target their priests. One of the reason for that is that the growing feeling that Christian own large educational institutions which actually strengthen the Hindutva. The bitterest critique of Christendom comes from those who were educated at these prestigious institutions. They will not targets prestigious institutions in Delhi, Mumbai or elsewhere because most of their family members come out from these colleges
Ask bull here I think hes from a christianand how they force you to sing gospels to what not, in My city one of so called prestigious college Xt Xaviers sells Baptist forms for money and then gives admission, want proof? Come here I'll show you freely, on the other hand I dont remember being a hindu you need temple certificate to get in one of prestigious college called BHUIT.

Oh I'm trying to find a nice article where John Dayal I think he heads gospel for Asia beautifully says how Muslims need to listen to gospel and accept it, from tomorrow remember to do that okay Neo?
 
Thought would destroy their paradise; where ignorance is bliss. Let them live in their paradise Neo.
 
Thought would destroy their paradise; where ignorance is bliss. Let them live in their paradise Neo.

The exact reason I dont come in these forums because independent debate isnt something one can do sincerely enough :azn: live in fools world if it will give you mental peace in thinking India does this and does that, whats pathetic is seeing someone putting up articles written by commies to justify their agenda!

And oh dont forget to sing Gospel or listen today, I clearly remember seeing a article where john Dayal prescribes Gospels being ultimate relief for Muslims and hindus of India :azn:

Just cannot find it..
 
Joey,

Don't get overemotional or offended, I deliberately selected this article to open the debate and to approach the topic thru the eyes of some of the minorities in India.

I've spent considerable (job and leisure related) time in India and been to many many places to know that she's anything but secular!

You may reject the pov's of the auther and acuse him of being a commie, which Imho is an easy but lame excuse to question his credibility and to deny the very existance of the problem, in fact the authenticity of the story is factually supported by the events described in the article and by the rise of Hindutva mentality which is already being felt thruout the layers of the society.

I'm sincerely interested to know what makes you and other members believe that India is secular and how the rise of Hindutva will reform the society.
 
Joey,

Don't get overemotional or offended, I deliberately selected this article to open the debate and to approach the topic thru the eyes of some of the minorities in India.
I'm not getting overemotional, offended? yes a bit because for heavens sake that article is same as me posting articles about Prophet (with respect) from FFI.


I've spent considerable (job and leisure related) time in India and been to many many places to know that she's anything but secular!
Where have you travelled?
What have you seen hindutvas in action?
I want you to come again and visit me, I promsie you I'll show you both parts of the story.

You may reject the pov's of the auther and acuse him of being a commie,
See, I know whos commie and whos not, the one who subscribe to caste based reservation, subscribe to arundhati roy, medha pathkar is not a commie?

I can challenge you on caste based reservation, want to debate?

Wait I'll find information about this guy preety soon.

which Imho is an easy but lame excuse to question his credibility and to deny the very existance of the problem,
Never denied the existence of hindutva problem, but threat to all christians? wth?
Remember it takes two to tango.

in fact the authenticity of the story is factually supported by the events described in the article and by the rise of Hindutva mentality which is already being felt thruout the layers of the society.
Oh really ;) Then i'm sure you havent even heard or seen much of what I did, the few violences that the article mentions is not done by hindutva as arundhuti roy/john Dayal immediately claimed but by a group known as deendar anjuman, who was arrested and confessed, never mind those articles written were never taken aback.

I'm sincerely interested to know what makes you and other members believe that India is secular and how the rise of Hindutva will reform the society.
Here are a few questions to you,

1> Define secularism and tell me which religion has violated whose rights first.
2> Hindutva will never reform the society the way they are going, shiv sena is a BIG BIG MOFO and so is bajrang dal, they are too interested in protesting for valentines day, vandalizing internet cafes, tearing down posters other than educating peoples.

If anything that will reform the society that is proper education.

I'm willing to answer to you but PLEASE! that article speaks of Muslims being denied of abc, speaks of reservation which the present supreme court (the justice is from a lower caste) denied on the gorund of being unconstutional, the whole blog is a BIG BIG JOKE.

Why dont all so called lower caste converts simply and we can put end to conversion?

It has been seen that there has been a sudden rise in evangelism, it is apparent that as many people gets educate they would leave the pre-colonial mindset of caste system, thus why this rise in evangelism now? I feel it is because a certain group of people dont wants us to install our own system in this world, by own system what I mean? By that I mean say for example alternate to WTO (thats a example), The world dont want us to define what is Indian (it is much like IPR creation) , to succeed in it one have to succeed from inside, Is this nuclear deal have a strong pro-evangelical lobby with Mrs Sonia in board to apease the atlantists of the wetdream they dreams of controlling the theoreaucratic structure.

And oh, Put forward your questions, in light with the blog I'll answer you one by one, Firstly About sacchar report I'mm answer you.
 
Reservation - In simple terms We mean reservation is help the poor peoples to get up the ladder and enjoy the fruits of developement.

Caste based reservation for OBC's- Why is it wrong?

In a village you are a poor brahmin and I am a poor gujjar or meena or whatever, We both live day to day life, in local school we both are good in study but after class 10's exam I got chance to study in high school while the same time the other did not, IS THIS EQUALITY?

Reservation specifically for minority, reservation for minorities are wrong because it seeks again political ideology, today you have baptist certificate for sell to get into christian college can you guarantee tomorrow you wont have conversion for sale to get the benefits of caste system and pass IPS exam with 10% less marks? this was what Supreme court questioned.

What I'm saying is reservation is fine but that should be based on social and poverty status and NOT CASTE BECAUSE THAT IS DECENTRALISED. And you havent seen how much this caste based reservation is nothing but balooney, You can buy SC/ST certificates to get admission, so ultimately without building proper infrastructure in villages the government is asking peoples to take up reservation benefits and come to the cities, care to explain how it will succeed?

Have you ever saw the buddhists asking for reservation? parsis asking for reservation? why is it that Christians(evangelicals) are too interested in reservation?

Regarding some community being low on social welfare status, read this, again it is not a community who is low in social welfare status it is a system that is keeping peoples in that status and the government is minting in vote bank politics, else care to explain, West Bengal being a communist state how come the Muslims are worst off financially? and how come they are much better off in Gujrat?

Muslims spend more than Hindu peers

NEW DELHI: Forget all half-baked opinions you may have heard on the economic state of religious communities in India. Truth be told, at the national level, Hindus and Muslims are closer than you thought as far as average household income, expenditure, savings and even ownership of select consumer goods go.

In fact, in rural India, the gap between the two communities’ narrows appreciably and even reverses in some cases in favour of Muslims. Not surprisingly, the Sikhs are the most prosperous lot in India, with highest household income, expenditure and ownership of cars, two-wheelers, TV sets and refrigerators. Christians and other smaller communities don’t lag too far behind either.


Hindu 61,423
Muslim 58,420
Christian 70,644
Sikh 91,153
Others 101,105

Average annual household income (Rs At 2004-05 prices)

In the first ever exercise mapping the economic contours of different religious communities in India, ET presents an exclusive peek into the National Council of Applied Economic Research’s (NCAER) data analysis from its National Survey of Household Income and Expenditure (2004-05), which was led by senior fellow Rajesh Shukla.



Hindu Muslim Christian Sikh Others
Car 5.1 4.3 10.9 17.3 13.1
Two Wheelers 35.3 31.3 41.7 54.7 57.0
TVs 62.8 54.0 77.6 86.6 85.2
Radio 49.5 51.3 56.0 36.3 47.2
Fridge 17.9 15.9 28.0 45.7 37.0

Ownership of selected consumer goods (% of households owning)


The survey collected primary data from a sample of approximately 63,000 households out of preliminary listed sample of 4,40,000 households spread over 1,976 villages (250 districts) and 2,255 urban wards (342 towns) covering 64 National Sample Survey (NSS) regions in 24 states/UTs.

If you thought Muslims alone were steeped in poverty, read on. Hindus and Muslims, at a national level, run neck-and-neck on average annual household income (AHI) of Rs 61, 423 and Rs 58,420, respectively.

Or, to put it differently, an average Hindu household has an income of Rs 168 per day, while an average Muslim household earns Rs 160 a day. In rural India, an average Hindu AHI is Rs 49,077 with Muslim close behind with AHI of Rs 47,805. On income parameters, at least, Hindus and Muslims are, indeed, bhai-bhai
.

Marketers planning an ethnographic pitch to grab mindshare or policy makers preparing ground for affirmative action may do good to remember that an average Muslim household, at the national level, spends more than a Hindu one, with annual household routine expenditure (AHRE) at Rs 40,327 compared to Rs 40,009 for the latter.

Sikh household AHRE is highest at Rs 60,475 with Christians at Rs 45,291. In rural India, Muslim AHRE (Rs 33,711) is higher than Hindu (Rs 32,555) and compares well with Christian (Rs 38,068).

Economic Times
 
I'm waiting for your questions regarding that article on which you want me to explain, again do a little bit search on Deendar Anjuman and alikes where the church bombings was blamed on these extremist bajrang dal.

That john Dayal is one of the biggest MOFO that can ever exist just like BAAL thackerey even WORST because he gets media attention while john Dayal gets media praise, I'm willing to debate on that as well, if you want me to.

So tell me first when will this fanatical religious aspirations of the evangelist stop? or that doesnt concerns you and it is secularism? i'm sure hindutva will stop then, but problem doesnt lies there even with these we have to progress, and how our government handles this is the key issue, are they handling it properly?

Name just one violent attack, that is, one attack where Hindus weren’t provoked by the Peddlers of the only True God and his Son. As to anti conversion laws, there can be nothing controversial provided a simple, unequivocal sentence is present: Peddling religious conversion is illegal.



I can virtually bring into table which media is controlled by whom, let me know how plausible it sounds.

Want to know more about defence journalism in india? check http://warfornews.blogspot.com/ , if the link doesnt works I'll give you alternative, the guy who did that exposed every bits and pieces of media what happens INSIDE, and was threatened to stop writing and he stopped..i think you can fidn soem of his articles here and there as i think he has deleted all the posts.

check these two regarding the remains of war for news,

http://www.stumbleupon.com/url/warfornews.blogspot.com/
http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2006-March/007013.html

It exposed every bloody bits and pieces of inside office story!!
 
I've spent considerable (job and leisure related) time in India and been to many many places to know that she's anything but secular!

While I wish to most respectfully point out that what you think of India is immaterial and what is known is not always right and that the Indian Republic doesn't seek certifications from outside, I'd be grateful if you could explain as to what you saw in India that made you imagine India was secular ?

Oh. What on earth is being 'secular' all about in the first place ? Your views.
 
'Is India secular??? '...who is asking? What moral high ground do you hold to ask us that?
 
'Is India secular??? '...who is asking? What moral high ground do you hold to ask us that?


Actually if we go by the examples of contryside violence no country in the world wil be secular. For eg after 9/11 a lot of inncocent sikhs were harrassed in UK and USA as their having turbans made some people in the countryside feel they were supporting Osama. That does not mean we in UK are no longer secular, it just means were are blissfully unaware of the differences of Sikh and Muslim Headgear. Indian courts have given justice to most victims of the Gujarat riots even if they were minorities invloved.

So I guess India is Secular but still not a perfect secular society but that will come with time and long term sustained education which seems to be the path of most Indians i have come across wish to follow.
 
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