How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[alimobin memon]

Furthermore it was found that canards with TVC is not a combination , since u have TVC why would u need canards , which technically increases more RCS but also wastage of money , TVC is engine is super maneuverable machine , which not only provides Fuel efficient but a great lifting , yaw , pitch and rolling ... To take full canard advantage the canopy side to be lil more upwards or canards need to be fitted more high where as in Su30MKI they are not , i wonder why is that ... maybe I am wrong but till some one corrects i think i got a valid question in my mind

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Su30mki Rely on Brute Power, a powerful difficult to Jam ( NIIP N011M Bars) , Elta EL/M-8222 self protection jamming pods (which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s), At-least x8 BVR's , TVC to outclass most fighters in WVR arena (in-case opponent managed survive BVR Salvo) . Su30Mki can carry even more powerful electronics on board, chances of Jf17 getting a lock and bringing down a Mki are not very promising.

I see Jf17 as cost effective replacement for obsolete PaF fighters, it's not design to take on Mki's, the reason of inducting Jf17 is more related to limited funds. it does not provide any clear advantage over IAF brute force.

 

[danger007]

You have presented a very valid argument but it fails to take a very important aspect into account, the introduction of AWACS and a fully fused C4I network on PAF's side. PAF has adopted a cost effective solution, instead of arming every plane with a capable radar, she has adopted to install force multipliers(AWACS, 3D Radars and Active/Passive Radars) to mitigate this factor. All aircrafts assigned for AD roles will be data-linked to PAF's command and control centre.

This will enable the JF17 to roughly spot the MKI at approximately the same time as the MKI spots JF17. During the 2008 probing incident, although the AWACS on PAF side were not online they were able to track and vector in interceptors in less than 2 minutes towards the border. That should tell you how capable PAF's radar network is. No matter how much RAM coatings are applied on the MKI, you will never be able to reduce its RCS to a level of that of a Rafale or a EF. Its structurally designed in such a way from its inception, the least the designers can do is reduce the RCS to a minimum level and thats that. MKI is a very capable machine no doubt. If MKI and JF17 were going head to head far out in the ocean without any backup, my money would be on the MKI but wars are not fought 1 on 1. A cohesive strategy that is designed to get the maximum out of each and every asset is the name of the game today.



If it were up-to me i would scrap our Armed Forces and use that money for social uplift of the poor, employment generation, education and healthcare.

sir may i know what kinda structural defect that MKI has..... please point out technical aspect why MKI RCS can't be reduced..... who want MKI RCS at the level of Rafael.....Do you forget the RCS of F-15...

Neither MKI will come alone nor JF-17.... JF-17 can't perform a role of MKI... it will be purely defensive fighter.... It is capable enough to hold on it self..... I just want to listen technical and logical points.... but not your opinions and false claims.........
I don't wanna see another war between India and Pakistan.... because we suffered alot with those war's which gained nothing..... now every thing is improving .....

 

[alimobin memon]

Su30mki Rely on Brute Power, a powerful difficult to Jam ( NIIP N011M Bars) , Elta EL/M-8222 self protection jamming pods (which the Israeli Air Force uses on its F-15s), At-least x8 BVR's , TVC to outclass most fighters in WVR arena (in-case opponent managed survive BVR Salvo) . Su30Mki can carry even more powerful electronics on board, chances of Jf17 getting a lock and bringing down a Mki are not very promising.

I see Jf17 as cost effective replacement for obsolete PaF fighters, it's not design to take on Mki's, the reason of inducting Jf17 is more related to limited funds. it does not provide any clear advantage over IAF brute force.

What you think is not a factor here , In war scenario any1 can be be pitted against each other so , saying elta from (israel) doesn't scare me indeed they have mastered but you cannot compare something that is not revealed with ELTA , saying it does not provide clear advantage over PAF is funny i think u lack knowledge and then u say "I'll stop replying to you" bro go first learn then come ...

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

What you think is not a factor here , In war scenario any1 can be be pitted against each other so , saying elta from (israel) doesn't scare me indeed they have mastered but you cannot compare something that is not revealed with ELTA , saying it does not provide clear advantage over PAF is funny i think u lack knowledge and then u say "I'll stop replying to you" bro go first learn then come ...

Memon by this logic Jf17 does not provide any advantage over IaF, we know how good cheap Chinese products are ?? Your argument is baseless, like your other posts.

And Dont copy me (the bolded part)

 

[alimobin memon]

Memon by this logic Jf17 does not provide any advantage over IaF, we know how good cheap Chinese products are ?? Your argument is baseless, like your other posts.

And Dont copy me (the bolded part)

U Kidding me Baseless like my other posts i think i have to award u for ur Baseless arguments as always , We know what chinese products are ... I officially stop replying u ... have u even tried to read my last 5 posts just read it anyways.

And i never said Jf17 is provides greater advantage , i said SU30MKI has 5 seconds estimate to react before jf17

I think u dont listen properly.

 

[Manticore]

Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range

With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry

With the inclusion of LERX , you get a far better AoA as compared to previous design -- like the use of canards to get lift , LERX do the same job while getting direction stability from the ventral fins and tail planes

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-wa...canard-non-canard-fighters-2.html#post3006617


The inner countermeasures area was significantly increased in the prototype4 --
from my article

The JF-17 has a defensive aids system [DAS]which incoporates various subsystems.The radar warning reciever allows 360 degree coverage in a 60km range in both ultravoilet and infrared spectrums.Detection sensors are on the front and tail.100-500 different types of radar signatures can be saved.The inbuilt ECM can effectively counter radar locks.KG300G jamming pod has multiple mode jamming capabilty.HMS is speculated to be of chinese origin.The missile approach warning system [MAWS] with an integrated optical distributed aperture imaging system , scans in UV,IR and visual spectrums , detecting missiles at 20km range.

all values from official presentations of jft

 

[Safriz]

J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range

With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry

and Electronic Warfare Capabilities will play a very important role.

 

[alimobin memon]

Due to the awacs integration into a net centric environment , the detection time might not be of that much concern -- the actual capability of the missile might be more important & that too , not only its range

With the use of IFR probes , jft wont be a defensive fighter , rather it would carry a vast array of weapons which even our f16s dont carry

Definitely IFR probe will increase the range of the jf17 to remain in airspace for further time . Jf17 has wide array of weapons include Anti Radiation missile which can be used to suppress enemy air defenses .

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.

but no official deal singed yet ?

 

[tvsram1992]

Any body who thinks Jf17 can win over rcs game should keep in mind that Mig21s can win over F16 in a similar way . The game is not only about rcs , it also includes maneuverability , ew systems , sensors , avionics , weapons .

 

[alimobin memon]

J10B is good platform but jf17 can be updated to same extent IFR probe will increase the range of operation , Payload is 4500 kg there might be improvements like HARD composites that might increase range like Gripen NG , take it that way like klj7 j10 radar can be integrated than tweaked to increase it's capabilities , IRST can be added to any 4+ generation fighter.

Any body who thinks Jf17 can win over rcs game should keep in mind that Mig21s can win over F16 in a similar way . The game is not only about rcs , it also includes maneuverability , ew systems , sensors , avionics , weapons .

No , MIG 21 RCS is not lower than F16 , while'st MIG 21 Radar does not provide range enough counter a plane like f16 however when fully combat ready that is weapon equipped the F16 has 5m^2 and MIG 21 too than comes the power of radar ... but in case of jf17 thunder has less greater radar range to attack , 120 km is against 5m^2 for SU30mki while jf17 has 130km , however as i said in my one of the recent posts that SU30MKI avionics are good so it will only provide difference of 5 seconds which in BVR scenario is not enough

 

[Rain]

Do u think that KLJ-7 V2 is Superior to ZHUK ME on MIG-29M. Zhuk ME is the latest Operational radar on MIG-29. ZHUK ME has as a range or 120 kms for 5m2 RCS. KLJ -7 is based on russian Phazotron N010 Zhuk radar which is a generation below ZHUK ME.

Single engine fighters cannot support high power radar. Example Compare the radars oif F-35 vs F-22. I have considered the KLJ-7v2 while doing the calculations.The detection of range for KLJ-7v2 for 10 m2 RCS cannot be more then 140 kms. Because " So as the Target range increases, The tracking range % gets reduced due to loss of power & disturbance in reception of reflected wave. Therefore consider 77-80 % as tracking range for 10 m2 RCS target. Even at 80% of 140kms the tracking range would be 112 kms."

& Su-30MKI carry a very good Israel Electronic Warfare Suite. In Electronic warfare JF-17 Is at serious disadvantage.

Dear Mr Hunt,
Before you continue with your figures about radars ranges, you must do some logical rebuttal of Abdulbarijan post #372. if cant falsify the claims there, you should not continue to insist on your figures!

For rest of Indians fellows; Please dont forget that Indian armies have used elephents throughout their history, and their history is replete with examples that Horse mounted cavalary often defeated Elephants ounted forces, though those elephent were better equiped as compared to horses, It is just a example, dont start to discuss that examples plz.

 

[Mr.Hunt]

J-10b vs mki should be the next discussion,as sooner or later PAF will have J-10b.

Let PAF induct atleast 1st J-10 a b c d e or any version. Then we can discuss. & u guys have a plan for only 36 of these fighters. By the time PAF has 36 J-10 ... IAF wil have 270 SU-30mki.

Dear Mr Hunt,
Before you continue with your figures about radars ranges, you must do some logical rebuttal of Abdulbarijan post #372. if cant falsify the claims there, you should not continue to insist on your figures!

For rest of Indians fellows; Please dont forget that Indian armies have used elephents throughout their history, and their history is replete with examples that Horse mounted cavalary often defeated Elephants ounted forces, though those elephent were better equiped as compared to horses, It is just a example, dont start to discuss that examples plz.

The ranges are all correct. Pls point out the mistake so i can correct it.