How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Thorough Pro]

In an otherwise unrelated thread, some members are ranting cheap banter on the Kargil conflict.
Here is an extract from Brian Cloughley's article shedding light on the Kargil debacle, which he wrote soon after the conflict circa 2000.

You just shut them (indians) off. they live an ignorant life and believe only what is fed by state controlled media.

 

[lkozhi]

You just shut them (indians) off. they live an ignorant life and believe only what is fed by state controlled media.

our state controlled media is doordarshan which no one watches
rest of media controls state

What is the PAF opinion about how sukhois will be used? I guess they think it will be used toward the later stage of war to bring it to a finish. Downing of such planes will be morale eater for us. So I think we wont risk it initially.

 

[Rain]

While reading your post I have to agree that such type of thinking is very lame....I mean the type of thinking that believes Pakistani Generals assumed that India would not go full on despite Pakistan squeezing their throats in Kargil. Kargil was a political debacle and not a military one! Actually, the plan was so brilliant that it is hard for some to digest even today. Everything was on plan until NS bowed down to his masters call.

What else do you think was the contention b/w NS and the Military?

I am not here to defend Nawaz nor i want to discuss Kargil related issues, it was an example that how faulty our thinking can become, whn we plan wars or conflicts? you should talk about the theme not example, sorry to see many senoir members are talking on subject which is not related to topic of thread.

PS: PAF was not Ready for Conflict, Navy was not ready for Conflict and Politiccal set up was naive an unprepared for Conflict, wht makes genreals think that invading Kargil at that was an excellent Idea, in My Opinion It was a brilliant idea but ill timed and ill planed. Full Stop on Kargil for now.

 

[Mr.Hunt]

UNBIASED ANALYSIS

KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.

Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.

So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].

Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.

JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.

And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.

 

[alimobin memon]

UNBIASED ANALYSIS

KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.

Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.

So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].

Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.

JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.

And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.

Klj7V2 is updated one , all jf17 carry or been updated to carry klj7v2 with 130 not 120

 

[Mr.Hunt]

Klj7V2 is updated one , all jf17 carry or been updated to carry klj7v2 with 130 not 120

Even 130 kms wont make any difference ..... you have to accept that N011M Bars outclasses ur KLJ-7 v1 or v2 easily & it was inducted in 2003 where as u are now inducting v2 ..... more then 9 years later & even then it is much inferior to N011M Bars & Su-30MKI combination.

JF-17 was never designed to take on Su-30MKI's ..... it was built to replace Mirage & F-7 In PAF at affordable cost.

 

[danger007]

Yes JF-17 is cost effective fighter.... Not to perform at the level F-16's..... purely some fan boyz giving it over hype.....

 

[alimobin memon]

Yes JF-17 is cost effective fighter.... Not to perform at the level F-16's..... purely some fan boyz giving it over hype.....

God bless you ... all pakistani can say now to you guys , actually jf17 was made to counter the spitfire of World war 2

 

[danger007]

God bless you ... all pakistani can say now to you guys , actually jf17 was made to counter the spitfire of World war 2

lol ignorant comment again.... i said it is cost effective fighter..... but it can't perform at the level of F-16's... ok

 

[alimobin memon]

lol ignorant comment again.... i said it is cost effective fighter.....

You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's

 

[danger007]

You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's

lolz... ok JF-17 can outperform F-16's... are you happy.... is your ego satisfied...

 

[Skull and Bones]

You also said not to perform at the level of f16's .... World's most ignorant comment comes out to be your's

Nor in payload, nor in TWR, nor in avionics....still ought to perform at the level of F-16. That's what i call delusional grandeur.

 

[mylovepakistan]

UNBIASED ANALYSIS

KLJ - 7 Radar On JF-17 Has a DETECTION range of 120 kms for 5 m2 RCS Target [Claimed by Senior Members but officially it is between 90 - 100 kms]. TRACKING range is 80 - 85 % detection range. Therefore @ 85% the tracking range of KLJ-7 for 5 m2 RCS is 102 kms. The pilot has to track the opponent to fire a BVR missile.
The radar can track 10 targets in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

N011M has a Search/Detection range of 350 kms [ 30 m2 RCS ] and a TRACKING range of 200 kms for targets with 10 m2 RCS.
Up to 15 air targets can be tracked at once in track-while-scan mode with 4 of these engaged at once. Its a high power radar.

Let us assume the RCS of LOADED [Air Combat] JF-17 is 2 m2 RCS & tat of SU-30MKI is 10 m2 RCS. N011M Bars can TRACK earlier block F-16 at 160 - 165 kms & Block 52 at 140 kms. RCS of block 52/60 is estimated at 1.5 m2.

So a Su-30MKI will TRACK JF-17 from around 150 kms where as JF-17 can track Su-30 at around 105 - 108 kms [85% of detection range].

Su-30MKI's radar can SIMULTANEOUS operate in Multiple modes where as KLJ-7 LACKS this capability.

JF-17 carries 4 SD-10 BVR Missiles with Range of 70 kms.
Su-30MKI Carries 8 R-77 BVR missiles with 90 kms range.

And I am talking about the present situation. Please do not start about future updates. Looking forward for a sensible reply.

GOOD..but you seem to be forgetting that BARS has 140-160 km "detection" range against a F-16 block 15 which has 5m2 RCS,

check the vayu sena tripod website that says a MIG 21 for instance can be " detected" at 135 km...

so now calculate 85%( according to you tracking range is 85% of detection )

its comes out to be 114.5 KMs...

so tracking range for a 3M2 rcs is 114.5 KMs..

while you have calculated KLJ's " tracking " range as 102 km against 5m2..

so now calculate against a 10m2 RCS...it gives nearly 130 km value...

so still JF 17 can detect and track MKI earlier...

 

[danger007]

GOOD..but you seem to be forgetting that BARS has 140-160 km "detection" range against a F-16 block 15 which has 5m2 RCS,

check the vayu sena tripod website that says a MIG 21 for instance can be " detected" at 135 km...

so now calculate 85%( according to you tracking range is 85% of detection )

its comes out to be 114.5 KMs...

so tracking range for a 3M2 rcs is 114.5 KMs..

while you have calculated KLJ's " tracking " range as 102 km against 5m2..

so now calculate against a 10m2 RCS...it gives nearly 130 km value...

so still JF 17 can detect and track MKI earlier...

lolz................. The KLJ-7 is an X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna. The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.


Frequency : X-band
A mechanically-steered slotted array antenna
14 Operational Modes
Range more than 100 km
Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
Reliability:
MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure): 220 hours
MTTR (Mean Time To Recovery): 0.5 hours
Weight less than 120 kg
Composition
Antenna Unit
Receiver Unit
Transmitter Unit
Processor Unit
Power Supply Unit
Auxiliary Transmitter Unit
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

 

[mylovepakistan]

lolz................. The KLJ-7 is an X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna. The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.


Frequency : X-band
A mechanically-steered slotted array antenna
14 Operational Modes
Range more than 100 km
Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
Reliability:
MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure): 220 hours
MTTR (Mean Time To Recovery): 0.5 hours
Weight less than 120 kg
Composition
Antenna Unit
Receiver Unit
Transmitter Unit
Processor Unit
Power Supply Unit
Auxiliary Transmitter Unit
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex

LOLzzzz...

check the kanwa report that was saying after tweaking, the detection range has jumped upto 130 km against a 5m2 target...lolzzz