How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[alimobin memon]

A Jf17 armed with externally mounted weapons is a big Spot on Mki Radar. So detection advantage is Fuss here. Su30Mki mounts a BIG powerful NIIP N011M Bars radar, at least x8 BVR's and a Powerful State of art Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod 'll fry incoming missile seeker. Bringing Down a beast like that is not easy kill but Mki is not invincible either.

Even if Jf17 manage to detect a Mki 1st ? there is Not much you can do. Only a noob pilot 'll launch BVR missiles at maximum ranges and gives enough time to opponent to deploy counter measures or take evasive maneuvers.

Su30mki Huge RCS can be use as advantage to fool enemy pilots. a combo of Su30mki and Mig21 / LCA or even Rafale is death warrant for enemies. air battles are Not simple as most of us thinks.

Do tell me How PAF ll manage to bring down 270+ Mki's ? (and Super sukhois) ? i am not even taking other IAF fighters into account.

jf17 after full external load RCS is close 5m^2 MKI radar if we calculate detects jf17 at 120km where as jf17 radar has been improved to detect a 5m^2 target at 130km so my brother let me tell u the MKI RCS is greater than 15 (as f15) The new jf17 name as block 2 cost is around 25-26mn$ so let me tell you Low cost was block 1 ok for you , but block2 has been improved, First of all 8BVR are useless if it is destroyed early before it has only launched 2 , at the other hand nobody will fire BVR until the are 100km radius nobody fires at long range , EW suite of jf17 has been reported by PAF f16 pilots themselves that it jammed our radars in exercises , Air chief Marshall has already stated block 1 as 85% of block 52+ , block 52+ costs 60million dollars as same as gripen is 50 million dollars but we know only NG is superior not the C or D , Cost is only problem when you come to west for weapons .... If So called super Sukhoi was so goood why did u bought rafales when u knew u can buy more than 200 out of same rafale program cost ... Because it is not as good as you think. To be honest u are fanatic as pakistani are for jf17 both are bad threat to each other my friend TVC is not going to be as good as expected in war even didnt prove well in RED flag . let me tell you a thing that India is very Very big it has also to protect his own airspace and borders from all sides , I guarantee u only 100 or so India can use them against pakistan in war, most of mki's are faced already towards CHINA , Even United states with so much power does not send that much aircrafts than u think india will for example whole NATO was in war not USA ... but Pakistan has advantage that if india attacks they can use All fleet to defend as it is their own country...

 

[notorious_eagle]

A Jf17 armed with externally mounted weapons is a big Spot on Mki Radar. So detection advantage is Fuss here. Su30Mki mounts a BIG powerful NIIP N011M Bars radar, at least x8 BVR's and a Powerful State of art Elta EL/M-8222 Jammer pod 'll fry incoming missile seeker. Bringing Down a beast like that is not easy kill but Mki is not invincible either.

Same goes for the MKI. With externally mounted weapons, the MKI will have an RCS and IR signature as big as an elephant. JF17 data-linked with external hardware will see the MKI approximately at the same time as the MKI will see the JF17.

Even if Jf17 manage to detect a Mki 1st ? there is Not much you can do. Only a noob pilot 'll launch BVR missiles at maximum ranges and gives enough time to opponent to deploy counter measures or take evasive maneuvers.

Thats ridiculous

If i can see my enemy first, i will try to go around his radar nose to escape detection. There are several tactics a pilot can employ if he can see his enemy first to get into a better fighting position.

Su30mki Huge RCS can be use as advantage to fool enemy pilots. a combo of Su30mki and Mig21 / LCA or even Rafale is death warrant for enemies. air battles are Not simple as most of us thinks.

This is where radar resolution comes into play. PAF deploys several layers of radar coverage with both active and passive hardware. This enables PAF to see exactly the type of aircraft that is inbound and what their formation is. This combo of strike package is indeed very potent but your enemy isn't exactly impotent armed with F86 Sabers.

Do tell me How PAF ll manage to bring down 270+ Mki's ? (and Super sukhois) ? i am not even taking other IAF fighters into account.

Since you are the one making a claim here, i ask you to prove to me how the MKI will break through Pakistan's defences. I am not saying it cannot be done, but Pakistan's AD is quite robust and potent. There is no way IAF can take the skies without taking heavy attrition losses.

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

 

[AUz]

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

R.I.P , the civilizations of Sub-continent.

CNN : The satellite images have shown that Mumbai , Karachi , Delhi , Hyderabad , Kolkata , Lahore , Amritsar , Islamabad , Chennai etc are turning up into big clouds of red mushroom smoke.

The war between India and Pakistan , ladies and gentlemen , is over.....forever.


~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~ Silence ~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

jf17 after full external load RCS is close 5m^2 MKI radar if we calculate detects jf17 at 120km where as jf17 radar has been improved to detect a 5m^2 target at 130km so my brother let me tell u the MKI RCS is greater than 15 (as f15) The new jf17 name as block 2 cost is around 25-26mn$ so let me tell you Low cost was block 1 ok for you , but block2 has been improved, First of all 8BVR are useless if it is destroyed early before it has only launched 2 , at the other hand nobody will fire BVR until the are 100km radius nobody fires at long range , EW suite of jf17 has been reported by PAF f16 pilots themselves that it jammed our radars in exercises , Air chief Marshall has already stated block 1 as 85% of block 52+ , block 52+ costs 60million dollars as same as gripen is 50 million dollars but we know only NG is superior not the C or D , Cost is only problem when you come to west for weapons .... If So called super Sukhoi was so goood why did u bought rafales when u knew u can buy more than 200 out of same rafale program cost ... Because it is not as good as you think. To be honest u are fanatic as pakistani are for jf17 both are bad threat to each other my friend TVC is not going to be as good as expected in war even didnt prove well in RED flag . let me tell you a thing that India is very Very big it has also to protect his own airspace and borders from all sides , I guarantee u only 100 or so India can use them against pakistan in war, most of mki's are faced already towards CHINA , Even United states with so much power does not send that much aircrafts than u think india will for example whole NATO was in war not USA ... but Pakistan has advantage that if india attacks they can use All fleet to defend as it is their own country...

Such a Baseless noob post by you,
HOW You know Jf17 RCs is 5m^ ? are you a insider ? Can YOU back your claim with credible source ?
HOW you know su30mki rcs is greater than F15 ? is there any official source which disclose mki RCS ?

Stop Dreaming ,Get real, i lol'd after reading bolded part!

Same goes for the MKI. With externally mounted weapons, the MKI will have an RCS and IR signature as big as an elephant. JF17 data-linked with external hardware will see the MKI approximately at the same time as the MKI will see the JF17.



Thats ridiculous

If i can see my enemy first, i will try to go around his radar nose to escape detection. There are several tactics a pilot can employ if he can see his enemy first to get into a better fighting position.



This is where radar resolution comes into play. PAF deploys several layers of radar coverage with both active and passive hardware. This enables PAF to see exactly the type of aircraft that is inbound and what their formation is. This combo of strike package is indeed very potent but your enemy isn't exactly impotent armed with F86 Sabers.



Since you are the one making a claim here, i ask you to prove to me how the MKI will break through Pakistan's defences. I am not saying it cannot be done, but Pakistan's AD is quite robust and potent. There is no way IAF can take the skies without taking heavy attrition losses.

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.
_____

On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.

 

[VCheng]

.................

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

No, the more important scenario to ponder is this: Economic collapse creates conditions ripe for a civil war, with factions and gangs ruling the streets. Pakistan sees no choice but to "request" the UNSC for "assistance" .... ....

 

[notorious_eagle]

Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.

You are the one who raised this point in the first place, why blame me.

On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.

Indeed the IAF can destroy static radar sites with Anti Radiation Missiles. But keep in mind that both sides are employing Anti Radiation Weapons and will be sending out strike packages for SEAD missions. Intelligence, preparation and most importantly luck will determine who ends up being successful.

No, the more important scenario to ponder is this: Economic collapse creates conditions ripe for a civil war, with factions and gangs ruling the streets. Pakistan sees no choice but to "request" the UNSC for "assistance" .... ....

Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.

 

[Major Shaitan Singh]

Simple Answer why fight so much....

PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.

Forget the Chinese Junks.... like mobile they blast during charging and these aircraft will blast during high maneuvers and fall like junk from the sky, these aircraft will not dare to cross INDIAN border or they will be sitting ducks for AKASH and SPYDER and S 300PMU...

Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says "Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist" I never heard IAF brass saying so "Does PAF does not go for Adventure"

 

[VCheng]

Y.............
Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.

I agree. My point was that annihilating war with India is even less likely than the improbable scenario I described, and therefore we should concentrate more our our economy than our military now that we have a credible nuclear deterrent.

 

[Fazlu]

But the question you should also be asking is, what if the IAF is too successful and manages to render PAF ineffective in 24 hours. Indian IBG's have managed to crush Pakistan's reinforced armour, broken through N5 highway and are on their way to Islamabad. What exactly will Pakistan do?

I dont think that's in our best interests. The refugee influx into India would be un-manageable.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

You are the one who raised this point in the first place, why blame me.



Indeed the IAF can destroy static radar sites with Anti Radiation Missiles. But keep in mind that both sides are employing Anti Radiation Weapons and will be sending out strike packages for SEAD missions. Intelligence, preparation and most importantly luck will determine who ends up being successful.



Not likely to happen . The State is no where near the position you are describing above my friend. I know sitting in the US and watching Western television might make you think otherwise, but believe me we Pakistanis are living quite peacefully here. This is the problem with us Pakistanis, we ourselves are our biggest enemies. We never get tired of bashing ourselves.

Nobody is blaming anyone, you just raised the same point i said! above. your reply of that post is not helping either.
__________

To that i agree, I hope such situation never escalate.

Regards

 

[alimobin memon]

Such a Baseless noob post by you,
HOW You know Jf17 RCs is 5m^ ? are you a insider ? Can YOU back your claim with credible source ?
HOW you know su30mki rcs is greater than F15 ? is there any official source which disclose mki RCS ?

Stop Dreaming ,Get real, i lol'd after reading bolded part!



Never denied that Externally mounter weapons 'll not increase Mki RCS, so irrelevant point raised by you.
_____

On bolded part, yes Iaf pilots can also apply same tactics, even radar sites can be taken out by standoff weapons. it Doesn't mean that Iaf can't penetrate PAF defense layers, but Mki is not invincible either as i said before.

My friend what i am saying that the RCS of jf17 is already claimed to have 1 or less than it and with payload it increase to b/w 4 and 5 ... while'st SU30MKI RCS is already discussed in many times that it has very high RCS like F15 only SU35 and fullback versions have less RCS to less than 1 ... The design explains it self , I dont think u have seen the discovery wings documentary MIG29 and SU27 , In these u will clearly see that the Sukhoi's have been designed to counter BIG aircrafts like F15 for instance whil's mig29 to counter f16 and f18 , other western med weight jets , Further when 4thgeneration era came to become little old Lockheed and Boeing decided to Created new designs with the ability to have stealth or near stealth for that RCS calculation is the Main Explanation , but it was found to take atleast 25years since 1985 estimate the research started in west where as Sukhoi realised that SU27 is an excellent platform but due to its huge size it was even at that time easy to detect reasons were its open engine from back near vertical stablizers u can see the intake are so open that u can see the engine directly from forward canopy ... these factors were not found in F16 nor F18 there intake were covered to cover the inside of the engine , i hope u understand , at the other hand The Russians brought new prototypes namely SU27 ++ , Su30 , SU33 ,SU34 , SU37 and SU35 out of which the extreme BAR and RAM coatings are found in SU35 , SU34 , Su37 terminator ... My friend i may be pakistani , But it is a fact that SU30MKI has greater RCS and jf17 has less u can see the jf17 has DSI intake , except exhaust all engine is in covered in fuselage as in mig29 and f16 , it has very few edges , some edges are forcely turned to rounding surface as landing gears ... But What SU30MKI makes a beast is TVC , HMD , PESA , IRST these factors are not found in jf17 , now u see IRST cannot track target that is 100km far , HMD is for dogfight , TVC is wvr but now we see 40G overloaded missiles almost any airforce RED flag revealed that TVC not very effective ... PESA will provide only less RCS as it still uses single frequency signal not like AESA ... The SU30MKI radar is rumoured to be changed i heard not sure but current radar after jf17 klj7v2 is already tweaked and added to jf17 ( tweaking is actually more of a small update even on a radar that is already produced just some minor modifications) radar has 130 against 5m^2 ... if SU30MKI gets AESA it is another rafale for IAF but looking at the current facts the BVR combat is in jf17 if RCS is what i stated of SU30 MKI greater than 20 and less than 25....
Nobody is noob everyone is student and teacher i know what i know , if u are really technical i can show u we are too

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

My friend what i am saying that the RCS of jf17 is already claimed to have 1 or less than it and with payload it increase to b/w 4 and 5 ... while'st SU30MKI RCS is already discussed in many times that it has very high RCS like F15 only SU35 and fullback versions have less RCS to less than 1 ... The design explains it self , I dont think u have seen the discovery wings documentary MIG29 and SU27 , In these u will clearly see that the Sukhoi's have been designed to counter BIG aircrafts like F15 for instance whil's mig29 to counter f16 and f18 , other western med weight jets , Further when 4thgeneration era came to become little old Lockheed and Boeing decided to Created new designs with the ability to have stealth or near stealth for that RCS calculation is the Main Explanation , but it was found to take atleast 25years since 1985 estimate the research started in west where as Sukhoi realised that SU27 is an excellent platform but due to its huge size it was even at that time easy to detect reasons were its open engine from back near vertical stablizers u can see the intake are so open that u can see the engine directly from forward canopy ... these factors were not found in F16 nor F18 there intake were covered to cover the inside of the engine , i hope u understand , at the other hand The Russians brought new prototypes namely SU27 ++ , Su30 , SU33 ,SU34 , SU37 and SU35 out of which the extreme BAR and RAM coatings are found in SU35 , SU34 , Su37 terminator ... My friend i may be pakistani , But it is a fact that SU30MKI has greater RCS and jf17 has less u can see the jf17 has DSI intake , except exhaust all engine is in covered in fuselage as in mig29 and f16 , it has very few edges , some edges are forcely turned to rounding surface as landing gears ... But What SU30MKI makes a beast is TVC , HMD , PESA , IRST these factors are not found in jf17 , now u see IRST cannot track target that is 100km far , HMD is for dogfight , TVC is wvr but now we see 40G overloaded missiles almost any airforce RED flag revealed that TVC not very effective ... PESA will provide only less RCS as it still uses single frequency signal not like AESA ... The SU30MKI radar is rumoured to be changed i heard not sure but current radar after jf17 klj7v2 is already tweaked and added to jf17 ( tweaking is actually more of a small update even on a radar that is already produced just some minor modifications) radar has 130 against 5m^2 ... if SU30MKI gets AESA it is another rafale for IAF but looking at the current facts the BVR combat is in jf17 if RCS is what i stated of SU30 MKI greater than 20 and less than 25....
Nobody is noob everyone is student and teacher i know what i know , if u are really technical i can show u we are too

Memon Your baseless Post is Not helping, i asked 2 simple questions and your reply is waaay!!! offtrack No credible source ? drop it here! you are wasting my time.

 

[Alphacharlie]

Simple Answer why fight so much....

PAK does not have arsenal to compete with SU 30MKI.... F16 are sitting ducks.... though some F16D can give a fight but can be shot down by BVR.

Forget the Chinese Junks.... like mobile they blast during charging and these aircraft will blast during high maneuvers and fall like junk from the sky, these aircraft will not dare to cross INDIAN border or they will be sitting ducks for AKASH and SPYDER and S 300PMU...

Every PAK Airforce office knows very well the capabilities of IAF and says "Misadventure will be dealt with Iron Fist" I never heard IAF brass saying so "Does PAF does not go for Adventure"

Service life of Mig 21 Type 57 or Type 75 is 5500-6000hrs
Same for J7 is 2500-2800hrs at Max

Now do ur Math....on Quality

 

[mylovepakistan]

Memon Your baseless Post is Not helping, i asked 2 simple questions and your reply is waaay!!! offtrack No credible source ? drop it here! you are wasting my time.

HMMMM...so you dont think that jf 17's RCS is 1m2 ( clean ) while 3-4m2 ( loaded )

and MKI's RCS is as big as elephant,

first lets move to jf 17's RCS,

the jf 17's RCS is believed to have been lowest in the current PAF inventory which includes block 52 ( remember block 52 has 1.2m2 RCS in clean configuration )
if you ask me for a link, go through jf 17 information pool thread/multirole threads,OSCAR who is one of the oldest moderators out there + nabil_05 and najam khan..all these members have openely cleared this...

now before you jump and say,have they insiders...so yes they have insiders.

any ways let me give you a clue too,how a jf 17 gets such small RCS,

- DSI intake that HELPS to hide engine fan blades ( does not hide COMPLETELY though ) and hence helps to reduce frontal RCS UPTO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT...

- its smaller aircraft ( smaller than block 52 )

- RAM paint ( though very very limited but its believed that it has RAM on some parts of jet )

- limited use of composites ( nearly 8 % )

now just for ur info a MIG 21 has 3m2 clean RCS,and i dont need to tell you that what material its made of ( pure metal )...

hence its safe to assume JF 17 has 1m2 RCS and its confirmed by our think tanks too,

coming to SUKHOI 30 MKI's RCS...

well,if you want a link,here is a statement saying some thing like this,

"According to a defence ministry official, “It is an amazing looking aircraft. It has a Radar Cross Section (RCS) of just 0.5 square metre as compared to the Su-30MKI’s RCS of about 20 square metres.”

India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter

 

[Storm Force]

indians must mad and plain stupid to invest so much money on su30mki with its massive RCS .

Stupid because they could have easily spent the $14 billion for 270 SU30MKI on

150 mirage2000-5 INSTEAD

CHINEASE MUST BE STUPID as well to buy J11 SU30 SU27 wen they easily induct the much smaller thunder JF17 instead with all those above advantages over SU30MKI