How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[Agnostic_Indian]

After flying the F's for so long, UAE considered the performance of Rafale to be sub par and wanted it to be heavily upgraded before it could meet the standards set by the F's. France was not willing to invest so heavily in the jet any more as it had no other clients and wanted UAE to bear the expenses.......UAE realized that it was not a sound purchase and opted for better alternative. That's the whole story or in short the Jet could not perform up to expectations.





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what were the shortfalls...any links to that..bcoz i heard it was canceled on financial reasons not technial.

 

[Storm Force]

Mav3erick

Response to your comment

Very few countries have the balls to SAY NO THANKS TO USA like india

Very few countries can afford a super expensive rafale in large nos enough set licence manufacture at home

BY THE WAY I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS this will explain one of the reasons for rafale nothing bar F22 comes close

The RAFALE Omnirole Fighter: Pushing Forward on New Air-to-Air Capabilities

EXCELLENT CHOICE BY THE IAF who did their global assessment thoroughly

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

This is what I wrote "Not sure which BVR missile they use, most likely AIM-120C & SD-10 have been integrated as those are the BVR Missiles that we hold in inventory". It shouldn't have been this hard to understand!

Google is your friend for Russian BVR engagements.

You believe an MKI can take on an F-15 and beat it too, I do not. We may leave it at that.

You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.

Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.

 

[Black Widow]

J10 B is sufficient to fulfil the requirements for Pakistani Airforce for forseable future best part is that its fully integrated with Chinese AWACs and these platforms will go under continued enhancement

F16 + j10B + JF17 Thunders more then enough

J10 B is more agile bird then Sukhoi
F16 is fast and agile nuclear enabled
JF17 thunders are carrying BVR and Nuclear enabled

We have absolutely no need to induct more planes

As Pakistani I would prefer some improvement of Cities and Infrastructure and Police System

My frnd "Nuclear" AZADPAKISTAN2009 : Why boasting Nuclear capability in every line? Do you mean to say your F16 and FC1 will fire nuclear capable AAMs on Indian fighter planes??? and more over what is definition of agility here?? You outrightly declared F16 and J10 more agile than SU27 family. Any facts behind it or its just your believe , ???




@J10 Vs Su27 Family: There was a chinese thread where a chinaman wrote that J11 (A copy of Su27) wiped out J10 (A copy of Lavi, an Israeli attempt to Improvise F16--Wiki) in one of war game... What make you believe that J10s can counter Su30s, when it can not match Su27??? Its again your belief , ??

 

[danger007]

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

anyways does your AF pilots know that? so you are saying JF-17 got better radar than MKI? so what it can do even it detected MKI before? it still needs come close to MKI to get lock on.. and fire the missile..

 

[Black Widow]

Believe it or not, the JF17 and F16 (without awacs support) will detect rhino aka mki's well before getting detected by mki.

See this post:



So if mki's range for 3m2 RCS figher is 123-118km, then tell me at what range mki will detect F16, whose RCS is 1.2m2 and JF17's RCS is even lesser.
And JF17's range for 5m2 RCS is 105km, then what would be its range for 20m2 RCS rhino? And F16's radar's coverage is even bigger.

F15 had similar RCS, Yet no one caught that rhino. Son , the RCS doen't play any role in 4th Gen fighters. I suggest u to learn some thing about detection and tracking range of fighters. Even one detect any plane on its radar, it's not sure that it can track that plane for long.

No matter how less you keep the RCS, for 4th gen fighter it won't be lesser than 5m2 , in loaded configuration. And mind that this is just frontal RCS, assuming that the fighters are approaching each other at same altitude.

Even F16 detect Su27 family at 200Km, so what?? Can it successfully track it?? Does F16 has 200Km range AAMs??? As I know 100 KMs is max AAMs range (some say 129-130, in approaching mode, 50-60 in chasing mode). To lock Su27 or F15 one need to come within locking range (80-100 KMs). In 80-100 Kms (BVR scenario), only thing matter is Counter measures, evasive manuver , ECM suit etc...

Here Big Fighters have advantage, Due to huge size they have enough space.

In BVR scenario, if both fighters belong to same generation, same class, 1 or 2 BVR missile can not guarantee the Kill..

 

[kaykay]

This is utter BS that mki's rcs is 20sqm.Its not more than 5-6 sqm clean and 10-11 sqm when loaded and almost all fourth generation aircrafts will have the RCS of 4-6 sqm when loaded or even more for some....may be typhoon and rafale can have something like 2-3 sqm though.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

This is utter BS that mki's rcs is 20sqm.Its not more than 5-6 sqm clean and 10-11 sqm when loaded and almost all fourth generation aircrafts will have the RCS of 4-6 sqm when loaded or even more for some....may be typhoon and rafale can have something like 2-3 sqm though.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

this will give you a general idea about rcs of different jets. rcs of mki is given differently in different sources. global security org given 4m2 while an article in business standard given it 20m2 but that was in an article to boast about stealth features of new Pakfa/T50 . there was news about Indian scientists developed a special canopy , stealth coating which is to be applied on fighter jets but no further combination about it's implementations.

 

[Black Widow]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters.html

this will give you a general idea about rcs of different jets. rcs of mki is given differently in different sources. global security org given 4m2 while an article in business standard given it 20m2 but that was in an article to boast about stealth features of new Pakfa/T50 . there was news about Indian scientists developed a special canopy , stealth coating which is to be applied on fighter jets but no further combination about it's implementations.

Agree with you. I will suggest our Pakistani frnd to read this post as well ... Posted by MODERATOR:Antibody in April 2011

Radar Cross Section (RCS)
RCS (m2) RCS (dB)


1. automobile 100 20
2. B-52 100
3. B-1(A/B) 10
4. F-15 25
5. Su-27 15
6. cabin cruiser 10 10
7. Su-MKI 4
8. Mig-21 3
9. F-16 5
10. F-16C 1.2
11. man 1 0
12. F-18 1
13. Rafale 1
14. B-2 0.75 ?
15. Typhoon 0.5
16. Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
17. B-2 0.1 ?
18. A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
19. bird 0.01 -20
20. F-35 / JSF 0.005 -30
21. F-117 0.003
22. insect 0.001 -30
23. F-22 0.0001 -40
24. B-2 0.0001 -40


Radar Cross Section (RCS)


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/20908-rcs-different-fighters-2.html#ixzz2GnuLwscm

 

[Gentelman]

You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.

Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.

no mairages r not BVR capable....
wrong info.....

Mav3erick

Response to your comment

Very few countries have the balls to SAY NO THANKS TO USA like india

Very few countries can afford a super expensive rafale in large nos enough set licence manufacture at home

BY THE WAY I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS this will explain one of the reasons for rafale nothing bar F22 comes close

The RAFALE Omnirole Fighter: Pushing Forward on New Air-to-Air Capabilities

EXCELLENT CHOICE BY THE IAF who did their global assessment thoroughly

well thats wrong....
every country have power to turn down us products....
Pakistan also turned down a downgraded AWACS offered by US when PAF demanded US centary....i suppose thats wrong name....
yeah thats its name..
Boeing E-3 Sentry
well overall turning down weapon offer isnot a big deal...
and Pakistan dont get that chance due to sanctions

 

[Mav3rick]

You said your mirages are BVR capable. Kindly tell me how can these mirages be BVR capable without BVR missiles. If they have been using BVR missiles for over 15 years, isn't it odd that nobody knows about it.

BVR capable means the Radar incorporated in the Avionics suite can use a BVR missile! The Grifo Mx series of Radars that were installed under the ROSE upgrades are BVR capable. And this is common knowledge, available throughout the internet.

Post a source about Russian BVR engagements or stop talking.

Google it to take a hike!

 

[Hasnain2009]

You're taking clean RCS, RCS of loaded F-16 or JF-17 will be very close to 5 sq m. And you're negating the role of jammers, ECMs in an aircraft.

Yes you are right, i was negating the role of jammers, ecm and other counter measures. But with jammers, ecm etc, mki will face even more difficulty to detect/lock jf17 /F-16.

 

[Mav3rick]

anyways does your AF pilots know that? so you are saying JF-17 got better radar than MKI? so what it can do even it detected MKI before? it still needs come close to MKI to get lock on.. and fire the missile..

I wonder why you guys get so confused with performance of the radars alone when the US Government spent Billions of $$$ not on their radars but on stealth which is the ability to hide from radars by minimizing the RCS! If you can grasp that concept, you can understand that MKI with its massive RCS will light up radars all over Pakistan from a good distance which may just be the same distance by which MKI detects a JFT through it's powerful radar. Also, that powerful radar will be a homing beacon for ARM's from standoff ranges!

Let me also tell you something interesting, 1 thing that the F-15's/F-16's pilots learned from their exercises with F-22 was the fact that they could not get a lock on the Jet even through visual contact because the Jet would just not appear on the radars! That's the power of extremely low RCS.

And while we are at it, the only F-22 that has ever been shot even in exercise was shot down by an F-16

F15 had similar RCS, Yet no one caught that rhino. Son , the RCS doen't play any role in 4th Gen fighters. I suggest u to learn some thing about detection and tracking range of fighters. Even one detect any plane on its radar, it's not sure that it can track that plane for long.

No matter how less you keep the RCS, for 4th gen fighter it won't be lesser than 5m2 , in loaded configuration. And mind that this is just frontal RCS, assuming that the fighters are approaching each other at same altitude.

Even F16 detect Su27 family at 200Km, so what?? Can it successfully track it?? Does F16 has 200Km range AAMs??? As I know 100 KMs is max AAMs range (some say 129-130, in approaching mode, 50-60 in chasing mode). To lock Su27 or F15 one need to come within locking range (80-100 KMs). In 80-100 Kms (BVR scenario), only thing matter is Counter measures, evasive manuver , ECM suit etc...

Here Big Fighters have advantage, Due to huge size they have enough space.

In BVR scenario, if both fighters belong to same generation, same class, 1 or 2 BVR missile can not guarantee the Kill..

Because the missiles would self destruct as the target is of the same generation? That doesn't seem right, does it to you?

 

[Skull and Bones]

Yes you are right, i was negating the role of jammers, ecm and other counter measures. But with jammers, ecm etc, mki will face even more difficulty to detect/lock jf17 /F-16.

Yes, but MKI has even powerful French and Isreali jammers.

 

[Mav3rick]

no mairages r not BVR capable....
wrong info.....

I suggest you read up on ROSE upgrades and Grifo Mx Radars on PAF Mirages.

Yes, but MKI has even powerful French and Isreali jammers.

French Jammers???