How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[ANPP]

Yaap.... War is like a team game. Winning the war is the result of the combined effort of all the assets, included army, air force, navy, intelligence.

But it is also important to improve the capability of the individual assets, so that in war scenario they can give their best & don't leave any weak point in the line.

The best option to counter the enemy fighter aircraft, just buy your own fighter. It is like the improve stealth features in the aircraft. You can design the better defensive radars, missiles etc. to counter the stealth plane. The best option is to design the offensive stealth plane.

 

[farhan_9909]

As was extensively discussed earlier, Bars had a range of 140kms at 5m2 RCS, while Klj7v2 had a 120km range at 5m2.
It was a general coensus that due to the Su 30's overall dismal RCS, the radars of both the plane will be able to locate and lock each other at the same time. Now comes the part which you miss- Does PAF have a missile with long enough range, so it can counter Su 30??It hsa Ra'ad with a range of 350kms, which is unfortunately subsonic. So, no it does not.
On the other hand , we have K-100 Novator, the "AWACS Killer" with a range of 400 kms and a speed of Mach 3.2. Thus, we will be able to utilize our full range of Su 30's radars............

sir so you want to hit PAF fighter aircraft with the non existing k-100..which max g turn is about 12g..?


if that missile really exist than at max it can only destroy awacs.

on the other hand BVR has a max g upto 39..

 

[mylovepakistan]

sir so you want to hit PAF fighter aircraft with the non existing k-100..which max g turn is about 12g..?


if that missile really exist than at max it can only destroy awacs.

on the other hand BVR has a max g upto 39..

i was wondering the same,from where they get such info or they make up stuff...

 

[Pak47]

i was wondering the same,from where they get such info or they make up stuff...

Bollywood and Wiki bro.

 

[MilSpec]

Counter to MKI as i have said in the past is SAAB Eireye with F16's. It would be a big advantage if your FC1 could also be datalinked with SAAB Awacs, it would have given you an added cushion.

There are a few aces up the sleeve of MKI and I am not referring to K172, there are others which have been pressed into service, which we will never see in public domain.



Another very important scenario that PAF will face is ability of MKI to stand as a command outpost. When a pilot in MKI is evading a BVR, the wso can still guide other a/c to the target. This is a very potent capability, especially with quite a few MKI's in the air.

MSP-418K Omul jamming pod and Elta ELM 8882 both are compatible on the MKI, which can give a tough time to all the PAF platform.

please remember, MKI is never going to be a lone gun slinger, western command though has MKI close to the border, but do remember South western command primarily caters to Pak, and is well within the borders.

 

[Viper0011.]

twisting on same thing with different ways will not help you bud..... i mentioned it already.... any kinda jet can be shot down.... no one denying it.... I mentioned earlier about the advantages of MKI and please mention what kinda advantages does JF-17 hold's apart from RCS.... Indian military's hq is just fine.... they don't wanna start war for no reason... maximum IA will prefer to avoid any conflict...... and except some brain frat's both PAKISTANIS and INDIANS not interested to fight another war...

I didn't exactly understand your first part. The world is scared because of the South East Asia....the water situation is about to hit the fan and that's what everyone's concerned with. Water will be the cause of the next war in SE Asia and sadly, between the two neighbors! Let's hope it gets resolved sometime.

As far as JFT vs. SU 30....not even sure why this is being debated. Different classes altogether. Avionics wise, they have some similarities as to they can both target something out to 120 KM's, granted they have missiles to support it. But otherwise, there is no comparison as the classes are altogether different.

JFT and SU 30 will have a day against each other, I am sure of that in case a war breaks out (hopefully never). But it's not a one to one match as they were both designed for different purposes and have different weight class. You don't put a light weight boxer in front of Mike Tyson. Similarly, SU 30 is a heavy class air superiority fighter design to compete the main threat of F 14 (back in the days) and now, to some degree F 15 or 18 (still not on par yet, I might add. No need to hate me, its the truth)

My sources also tell me that there is something else coming to counter the SU 30 threat or at least add more punch of the defensive capability to the PAF. They said it'll be announced sometime next year (its not J 10B), hopefully before the summer. It's a credible source but I'll believe it when I'll see something. The history tells me it's probably 90% true but I'd like to wait to see. When a heavy class jet gets into PAF, then we can have a comparison between the F-XX and SU-30 or whatever India might have on the top end in the next few years

 

[Nishan_101]

Really didn't see any pictures of Super Sukhoi's but for sure it will be quite super.

 

[aanshu001]

I was reading this tread the major point raised by Pakistani members were JF-17 with AWACS can neutralize the treat of MKI that's same goes for IAF were Mig 21, 29, Mirage will be night mare for PAF ( both Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) are going to be heavily upgradedand will be on par with new F-16 PAF getting

Several time Mr. Mastan Khan had said on this forum if IAF loose 25 MKI on day -1 it's the moral will down but I would like to ask can Pakistan afford to lose 25 F-16 ( and why PAF can't loose 25-30 F-16 on day 1) when your opposition is equipped with 3 times 4++ generations planes, better radar & SAM system, Dedicated spy satellite and even AWACS platform.

For me the question is How Pakistan Should counter the Su 30 MKI after countering Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 ( no future planes included) don't tell me 150 + JF-17 with 100 F-16 combined with 50 J-10. Even with 125 Mig 21 bison with BVR missile can take 45 to 50 PAF planes (3:1 scenario I hope they will do much better) with AWACS support.

The training and tactics apply both way and finally technology and numbers make the difference which is in IAF favor at-least for now and next 20 years.

 

[MilSpec]

I was reading this tread the major point raised by Pakistani members were JF-17 with AWACS can neutralize the treat of MKI that's same goes for IAF were Mig 21, 29, Mirage will be night mare for PAF ( both Mig 29 & Mirage 2000) are going to be heavily upgradedand will be on par with new F-16 PAF getting

Several time Mr. Mastan Khan had said on this forum if IAF loose 25 MKI on day -1 it's the moral will down but I would like to ask can Pakistan afford to lose 25 F-16 ( and why PAF can't loose 25-30 F-16 on day 1) when your opposition is equipped with 3 times 4++ generations planes, better radar & SAM system, Dedicated spy satellite and even AWACS platform.

For me the question is How Pakistan Should counter the Su 30 MKI after countering Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 ( no future planes included) don't tell me 150 + JF-17 with 100 F-16 combined with 50 J-10. Even with 125 Mig 21 bison with BVR missile can take 45 to 50 PAF planes (3:1 scenario I hope they will do much better) with AWACS support.

The training and tactics apply both way and finally technology and numbers make the difference which is in IAF favor at-least for now and next 20 years.

The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.

Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,

we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time

Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,

The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.

On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.

Its all about planning.

 

[alimobin memon]

The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.

Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,

we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time

Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,
Thumbs up to your post
The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettision its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.

On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.

Its all about planning.

same point I made that not all of the indian fleet is going to attack pakistan 400 max and when i said that some trollers justt made fun ... ur

 

[aanshu001]

same point I made that not all of the indian fleet is going to attack pakistan 400 max and when i said that some trollers justt made fun ... ur

I do agree with you but question is hear 300 BVR capable aircraft against 100 capable BVR aircraft ( in current scenario) and in future 600 BVR capable aircraft against 250-275 BVR capable aircraft ( after Induction of 150 + JF 17 & 36 JF-17 in PAF and with IAF including 200 LCA & 126 Rafale) in next decade leaving out Super Su 30 MKI & FGFA.

Even Navy is going to give hard time to PAF to protect it Sea Lines with it new toys 45 Mig 29 K ( forget about repeat order or Naval LCA) in present scenario INS Vikramaditya patrolling near Lakshadweep, PAF need at-least half of it's F-16 fleet to keep eye on the it as no other PAF plane had range or capabilities to do the same.

 

[alimobin memon]

If u search through google maps or earth u will only find 2 f16 overall in pakistan on their bases. GEO eye satellite itself has no idea how many planes with BVR currently we have jf17 is speculated at 50 and 65 f16 but there are no confirmation we might have more BVR fighters than u think. If u think I am wrong then i have pics in which shenyang and chengdu airforce bases are so open that u can even see if it is j11 or j10 , jh7a ... we indeed have more than 100 but not sure how much .

 

[Viper0011.]

I do agree with you but question is hear 300 BVR capable aircraft against 100 capable BVR aircraft ( in current scenario) and in future 600 BVR capable aircraft against 250-275 BVR capable aircraft ( after Induction of 150 + JF 17 & 36 JF-17 in PAF and with IAF including 200 LCA & 126 Rafale) in next decade leaving out Super Su 30 MKI & FGFA.

Even Navy is going to give hard time to PAF to protect it Sea Lines with it new toys 45 Mig 29 K ( forget about repeat order or Naval LCA) in present scenario INS Vikramaditya patrolling near Lakshadweep, PAF need at-least half of it's F-16 fleet to keep eye on the it as no other PAF plane had range or capabilities to do the same.

If my little understanding is correct, it's ALWAYS been like this. India vs. Pakistan airforce ratio's been 1:3. This is just the reality that the Pakistanis have to plan for.

As far as the Navy is concerned, yes, an aircraft carrier's a big force projection. But HERE is where you are missing the point. A battle group such as USN's battle group has about 34 ships and one or more submarines as escorts over a couple of hundred miles worth of radius. In the IN's case, it's not a blue water navy, nor will it ever be able to bring the AC around the littoral waters of Pakistan. Too much danger. I am more than sure that PN's focus will be fast attack stealthy mid size crafts and PRIMARILY the submarines. A navy like IN (even though big in size) has TOO MUCH to risk by bringing an AC close by.

Even the USN keeps the AC in the middle with layers around it as it operates in the blue water. Frankly speaking, no one would want to touch the USN AC as they know the overwhelming back to the stone age response they'll get. BUT, its not the case for India. Plus the range is little in this conflict. Now if you move the AC a few hundred miles out in safety, then you'll still operate jets off of the AC but they'll lose that quick surprise advantage. In this scenario, these jets will have no differentiation as to if they are coming off land or off an AC. You could theoretically block supply lines of Pakistan due to the size of IN and have an AC back the offensive line up a few hundred miles, but then the primary role will become air-support / air superiority over the IN ships trying to establish a blockade.
This would again get neutralize if Pakistan really gets six or more subs, some of which may be nuclear capable. Plus, induction of many fast attack mid size ships will scatter the PN as these smaller AC are harder to detect. In a conflict, it'll be difficult to neutralize all of them immediately, some of these could provide long range SAM support and anti ship missile launching capability. Plus the stealthiness may help them stay off the radar for a while.

 

[aanshu001]

If you want to fit a BVR missile on a J-7 your wish & money but you need a capable radar to guide it. As per your assessment or speculation 50 JF-17 & 65 F-16 of all blocks now you had 115 BVR capable plane if all are capable enough (I am not sure about earlier block of F-16).

 

[danger007]

The thread is not about how PAF should counter IAF, it's about countering SU30MKI.

Numbers on paper dont matter, what matters is size of your strike package and configuration,

we are not flying all of 700 odd combat aircrafts against thier 350 aircrafts at a time

Numerically a strike package of 3 mki and 4 M2k can run into 10 f16's, giving numerical superiority to PAF at that time,

The assumption is MKI strike package is aggressor, PAF will have time to get enough numbers of planes in the air to engage or even intercept. Even if 4 PAF f16's or FC1 fire a salvo and disengage without hitting any, and IAF strike package has to jettison its munition to take evasive actions, PAF's mission succeeds and they successfully counter MKI.

On flipside, if F16 formations are trying to hit trombay high and run into a formation of patrolling MKI flying pure air superiority mode from lohegaon, then narrative changes. Eireye wont have the range, f16's will be on their own, probably will have to jettison their bomb loads and counter MKI in air-combat. All that matters is pilot skills, environment of engagement, weapons loadout and some luck. Anything is possible then.

Its all about planning.

Yes i do agree but one thing Even IAF strike package fire a missile without hitting any, PAF f-16 and FC-1 will be in defensive position ....

Present Pakistan and USA relation is in bad position... PAF can't hope spare parts from USA... So they can't use all of F-16's in pakistan inventory.... So im expecting PAF package will comprise 1 or 2 F-16 and remaining will be JF-17 may be 2-4....