How PAF Should Counter the SU-30 MKI

[INDIAISM]

Here it says SU30mki has 140 for RCS 5m^2 Admit it I am so sorry
Still it favors my point , The klj7 has now 130 for RCS 5m^2 while'st SU30MKI has more than 5m^2 RCS furthermore let the for example RCS of MKI is 8m^2 it still provides that jf17 will detect and engage in BVR as it will have 145-50 km track range..
105 for klj7 is original jf17 radar which was later upgraded ...However ur link says SU30MKI has 10-15 m^2 that is almost more than 160 for it block 2 has even greater range against SU30MKI since it has 150 - 160 km for 5m^2 so radar range winner JF17

How conveniently you forgot to mention few things....

a}Radar of Jf17 will be upgraded in Blk2 version..

b}At present PAF don't even have even a single Jf17 Blk2 in its Kity....

C}IAF is going to upgrade Su30 Mki.....in which Su30Mki will get new Radar Zhuk Ae Aesa Radar....

 

[mylovepakistan]

another idiological claim.....

\
JF-17 has chances but minimal...... who are saying MKI is god.... it is just human made jet..... but far advanced than JF-17........ neither that generation pilots alive... lolz crash rate due to vintage jets and some with human errors... what is your point????



JF 17 has every chance to bring MKI down if it is used properly against it


please enlighten us.... can you share your tacticts and views...... ok you will say with awacs help.... what if awacs is shotdown???? JF-17 will become blind bird...... we don't need false claims... because MKI is superior... you need to hype it to bring on level of MKI.....

LOL !!!

should i really reply to a KID that comes with his new theory that says something like this...

"a jet whose radar is having 130 km range against a fighter sized object...IS BLIND WITHOUT AN AWACS"

LOL!!!

wow....

you know last time you asked me to MIND MY LANGUAGE..

but believe me only a moron can state such statements..LOL


now i know you will jump and go to IRST and jammers account..

REMEMBER in ur above theory you did not even mention these..anyhow lets take account of IRST and jammers too,

currently we dont know the actual capabilities of KG300G jammer so no point here to argue,

BUT for IRST...chinese PODED IRST is superior to OLS-27 and inferior to OLS-30 on board MKI,

however simply go to 1st page and see how MKI with its overly EXPOSED ENGINES gives a HUGE IRST signature too,

hence JF 17 will be able to lock earlier....


YOU dont need FALSE claims?? oh really?????


so please prove here that MKI detects jf 17 earlier...prove it...while if you going with that mr.hunt then ask him to reply the abdulbarijan's posts...

and we will see what you will come up with...LOL!!!

 

[aanshu001]

Well any plane with decent radar & missile can shoot any plane in favorable condition. Now in war scenario if JF - 17 face Su 30 MKI it had quite chances but we need understand below.

1. PAF not only need to face IAF treat but also need to protect sea lane ( don't tell me Mirage -III with rose upgrade can take Mig 29 - K) so PAF resources are divided in two direction

2. SAM system - present & in near future IAF & IA had better SAM ie. Akash, Barak , Spider supported by Green Pine & Swordfish radar system ( this land based radars are unmatched)
3. AWACS - I put both countries even as both had advance systems

4. BVR missile & tactics - Upper hand is with India with more experience and more platforms to which carry BVR

5. Geographical dept - Most of IAF bases are secure from stand off missiles as they are deep inside but in case of PAF most of them situated near the border so more vulnerable compare to Indian

6. Pilot training - Now this is very interesting, most of Pakistanis says PAF pilots are better trained than IAF ( In case of Old platforms like F-16 or Mirage it may be correct) but for a completely new platform never inducted before how can a pilot can be superior. In Pilot training MKI is more mature than JF-17 ( and Indians also had been benefited by tactic evolved by Russian on Su family). As we all agree any platform take years to mature ( so the claim JF -17 pilot is better trained is base less it will still take years to prepare training manual for JF -17).

7. Number - I am not adding Raffle or LCA ( if we take Mig 21 + Mig 29 ug + Su 30 MKI + Mig ) no. of BVR capable planes with capable radars even Mig 21 with Kopyo-M can Track- 10 Targets andssimultaneously Engage - 2 Targets with max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km with Israeli jamming pods on the migs & RCS of 3m2 can give hard time to any PAF plane.

now on claims of JF-17 radar range. Janes reports that KLJ-7's range is 75km for 3m2 target. http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8879/klj7st5.jpg . Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made hear

 

[danger007]

LOL !!!

should i really reply to a KID that comes with his new theory that says something like this...

"a jet whose radar is having 130 km range against a fighter sized object...IS BLIND WITHOUT AN AWACS"

LOL!!!

wow....

you know last time you asked me to MIND MY LANGUAGE..

but believe me only a moron can state such statements..LOL


now i know you will jump and go to IRST and jammers account..

REMEMBER in ur above theory you did not even mention these..anyhow lets take account of IRST and jammers too,

currently we dont know the actual capabilities of KG300G jammer so no point here to argue,

BUT for IRST...chinese PODED IRST is superior to OLS-27 and inferior to OLS-30 on board MKI,

however simply go to 1st page and see how MKI with its overly EXPOSED ENGINES gives a HUGE IRST signature too,

hence JF 17 will be able to lock earlier....


YOU dont need FALSE claims?? oh really?????


so please prove here that MKI detects jf 17 earlier...prove it...while if you going with that mr.hunt then ask him to reply the abdulbarijan's posts...

and we will see what you will come up with...LOL!!!

Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....


I know who is kid here......

 

[HAIDER]

We discuss long before thust vectoring is curse in bettle zone. Its only good for russian acrobat teams. Defence anaylst gave very good reason. For using thrust vectoring plane has to reduce the speed at its lowest and thrust need to increase at top. Means using thrust vectoring Plane not only burnt double the fuel but also easy target. Leave behind extremely high heat signature, a good for any incoming.

 

[Viper0011.]

Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....

I know who is kid here......

I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away.
In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne.
The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint.
But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.

 

[danger007]

I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away.
In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne.
The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint.
But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.

Sir i am not down playing JF-17.... i mentioned many times JF-17 is cost effective fighter.....

while in case of preemptive strike , super su-30mki will be assigned.... as it can carry Brahmos ... and up graded RADAR im not sure about AESA .... might be reduced RCS at the level su-35 ......... in that case upgraded MKI don't need to step into Pak airspace ... because pakistan don't have large area.........

i have one question.... what if MKI uses stand off missiles from the boarder as well brahmos????

 

[HAIDER]

I've provided an overview of the situation many times over but it seems as people on either side want to forget about the reality and just stay busy trolling their lives away.
In the case of Pakistan and India, the great radar of SU30MKI doesn't exactly have an advantage. If that was the case, you would've seen per-emptive strikes on Pakistan in 2008.
JFT can detect SU 30 from around 140KM, SU30 can detect a JFT from around 160KM. But where it gets tricky is that neither BVR missile works over this distance, nor does a BVR work all the way to the end of its flight spectrum. It's not a bullet that goes straight, it's a missile and countering high maneuverability is expected from it. Which in turn bleeds flight time, fuel, drag, velocity, target reacquisition, and thus reducing the range. So the ranges above 100KM are really for tracking only. Each side has GBR's (ground based radars) that already have similar range into each others territory so radars ranges from SU30 or JFT ..don't really make a huge issue or add a new capability. Pakistan's FOB's are well within 100KM of the Indian border so both the aircraft will see each other as soon as JFT will get airborne.
The mirages and the SU30 that came into Pakistan's territory had two locks on it as soon as an F16 and a F7 became airborne. Both of these jets flew from FOB's. In fact, the F 7 was 20 Km inside Pakistani territory when it took off and obtained a lock on SU 30 right away as the Chinese PL5 and AIM9X, both have 20+km ranges. So the short distance between the two puts SU 30 at a small disadvantage from an EW or interception from long distance's standpoint.
But in my opinion, SU 30 could be lethal as it carries a LOT of weapons. It can double fire BVR's onto an incoming bogy making it VERY difficult to evade two good BVR's. It can do that with at least 3 incoming jets, sending two BVR's for each plane. Making it difficult to counter the bvr's.

Endorse above statement. Every AC has to come certain range to strike the target. A BVR with 130 range is not necessary will have proven strike. If its 130 then has to come atleast minmum 70 km to 80 km range to strike the target. But read in few articles they argue about the range, some saay average 40 km to 50 km.

 

[alimobin memon]

How conveniently you forgot to mention few things....

a}Radar of Jf17 will be upgraded in Blk2 version..

b}At present PAF don't even have even a single Jf17 Blk2 in its Kity....

C}IAF is going to upgrade Su30 Mki.....in which Su30Mki will get new Radar Zhuk Ae Aesa Radar....

130 km is upgraded range of block klj7 radar. block 1 radar already has air to air range than BAR . Block radar is new no one knows specific details. Zhuk Ae is ofcourse to be super flanker program radar but one must realise we also will by then start developing block 3

I always assumed that they were talking about the V2 version... i dont know if others think otherwise

I have always assumed 105 Km range for 5m2 as the baseline model was quoted as giving 75 Km range for 3m2 which roughly equals 85+ Km for 5m2....at dubai 2011 some officials said that the baseline KLJ-07 was upgraded... so hence I believe it has 105 Km range for 5m2, which BTW are the official figures by the manufacturers, u can ask more to storm force about this as he had compiled a whole thread regarding BVR, detection and so forth...

baseline model has 105 km already for 5m^2 , the new upgrade is 130 km ... 75 for 3m^2 doesn't count 85+ because 4m^2 gets 85+ range while'st 105 for 5m^2 , there is difference of 2 b/w 3 and 5

 

[Jungibaaz]

Well any plane with decent radar & missile can shoot any plane in favorable condition. Now in war scenario if JF - 17 face Su 30 MKI it had quite chances but we need understand below.

1. PAF not only need to face IAF treat but also need to protect sea lane ( don't tell me Mirage -III with rose upgrade can take Mig 29 - K) so PAF resources are divided in two direction

Same goes for you, PLAAF should be your biggest worry.

2. SAM system - present & in near future IAF & IA had better SAM ie. Akash, Barak , Spider supported by Green Pine & Swordfish radar system ( this land based radars are unmatched)

Sure, Pakistan armed forces are very tight lipped about SAM purchases.
FT-2000, HQ-2B, HQ-18 and Spada 200.

But India does seem to have a wider range of more modern SAMs.

3. AWACS - I put both countries even as both had advance systems

4. BVR missile & tactics - Upper hand is with India with more experience and more platforms to which carry BVR

How so? It's a common misconception to think that PAF is new to BVR, that AIM-120C-5 is PAF's first.
PAF have had AIM-7F Sparrow for F-16s and T-darter for over a decade now.

5. Geographical dept - Most of IAF bases are secure from stand off missiles as they are deep inside but in case of PAF most of them situated near the border so more vulnerable compare to Indian

Sure, but Pakistan would retaliate equally any bases within range that are meant to deal with Pakistan would be targeted by Ra'ad and Babur. India does have a geological advantage, but effects would be the same.

6. Pilot training - Now this is very interesting, most of Pakistanis says PAF pilots are better trained than IAF ( In case of Old platforms like F-16 or Mirage it may be correct) but for a completely new platform never inducted before how can a pilot can be superior. In Pilot training MKI is more mature than JF-17 ( and Indians also had been benefited by tactic evolved by Russian on Su family). As we all agree any platform take years to mature ( so the claim JF -17 pilot is better trained is base less it will still take years to prepare training manual for JF -17).

So what you're saying is that MKI pilots are IAF's best so JF-17's can't possibly compete?
Well that isn't how it works, PAF would place it's best near the Indian border whether that goes for F-16 or JF-17.

7. Number - I am not adding Raffle or LCA ( if we take Mig 21 + Mig 29 ug + Su 30 MKI + Mig ) no. of BVR capable planes with capable radars even Mig 21 with Kopyo-M can Track- 10 Targets andssimultaneously Engage - 2 Targets with max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 80 km with Israeli jamming pods on the migs & RCS of 3m2 can give hard time to any PAF plane.

LCA will be a threat as much as MKI I believe, Even Mk.2 will be comparable to our best F-16s.

now on claims of JF-17 radar range. Janes reports that KLJ-7's range is 75km for 3m2 target. http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8879/klj7st5.jpg . Invoking the Radar-Range-RCS equation the calculated range for 5m2 target is 85km which is far less than comments made hear

Please show me your calculation. and the equation you've used.
that 75km figure goes hand in hand with 105km for 5m^2.

But even those stats are old, the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for 130km for 5m^2 size target.
Sources given in earlier pages of this thread.

 

[alimobin memon]

The problem is that janes, Global security , wikipedia and PAC itself hasn't updated their section for JF17 for a period now which makes Indians think that jf17 is still what it was then
No matter what any1 says block radar is upgraded to 130 km for 5m^2 , over all range increase from 150 to unknown figures .
let me tell u that klj7 initially had 135 for surface sea targets but it was found that C802A of jf17 has 180km range which means jet cannot take the full advantage of the missile a radar needed to be able to minimum attack an sea target with 140 km range. so that is one of the factor jf17 radar was upgraded the over all range is increased. You tell me Wikipedia still talks about concerns over engines which is already solved and chilled.
jf17 is cost effective fighters for others one must realise we for a time now ought to become self reliant rather than import. jf17 is not cost effective for us but it is PAF's backbone , westerns economies are in not as good condition as they did now what they are doing is keep increasing the cost even F35 which suppose to be 5th generation solution became too expensive . Our currency and chinese is not very high which gives us products at low prices . If jf17 was an western product i guarantee that it would not be less than 35 million dollars.
If you guys dont like jf17 ... dont like it because that is what we want.
If MKI is so good and u almost have blue navy for this region , why are u guys afraid of Pakistan who has only 100 4th generation fighters where as u guys have 350 atleast ... Invade us . Now please dont tell me u are not offensive

 

[MiG-21]

baseline model has 105 km already for 5m^2 , the new upgrade is 130 km ... 75 for 3m^2 doesn't count 85+ because 4m^2 gets 85+ range while'st 105 for 5m^2 , there is difference of 2 b/w 3 and 5

Please show me your calculation. and the equation you've used.
that 75km figure goes hand in hand with 105km for 5m^2.

But even those stats are old, the upgraded KLJ-7 has a detection range for 130km for 5m^2 size target.
Sources given in earlier pages of this thread.

(5/3)^1/4 * 75


Aim-7 in PAF's inventory? Seriously? Is there no limit to a fanboy's dreams?


First off, Janes, is not wikipedia or Global security. God! Second, a 105km for 5m2 range is the same as the radar range of the Mirage-2000-5, Mirage-2000-9 and F-16 Block-52. These 2 radars have bigger dishes, most definitely have superior processing capabilities and Gain, and most probably have a higher transmitter power. One of the reason why the 105km number is looked upon with suspicion. If that figure was of the J-10's radar, a comparable aircraft to F-16 and Mirage-2000, then it would have made a bit of sense. But JF-17...?
I'm not even going to go into the "130km for fighter sized target" thing. First let Block-2 fly. From the recent klimov order update, the engines haven't even been manufactured because it still wasn't asked for yet.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The problem is that janes, Global security , wikipedia and PAC itself hasn't updated their section for JF17 for a period now which makes Indians think that jf17 is still what it was then
No matter what any1 says block radar is upgraded to 130 km for 5m^2 , over all range increase from 150 to unknown figures .
let me tell u that klj7 initially had 135 for surface sea targets but it was found that C802A of jf17 has 180km range which means jet cannot take the full advantage of the missile a radar needed to be able to minimum attack an sea target with 140 km range. so that is one of the factor jf17 radar was upgraded the over all range is increased. You tell me Wikipedia still talks about concerns over engines which is already solved and chilled.
jf17 is cost effective fighters for others one must realise we for a time now ought to become self reliant rather than import. jf17 is not cost effective for us but it is PAF's backbone , westerns economies are in not as good condition as they did now what they are doing is keep increasing the cost even F35 which suppose to be 5th generation solution became too expensive . Our currency and chinese is not very high which gives us products at low prices . If jf17 was an western product i guarantee that it would not be less than 35 million dollars.
If you guys dont like jf17 ... dont like it because that is what we want.
If MKI is so good and u almost have blue navy for this region , why are u guys afraid of Pakistan who has only 100 4th generation fighters where as u guys have 350 atleast ... Invade us . Now please dont tell me u are not offensive

check post #446 the increased range should be for version 2 which is yet to come.

 

[mylovepakistan]

Im not MKI fanboy but AMCA..... I am eagerly waiting for it...... Just because MKI got huge RCS wont help JF-17 to bring down.... RCS is will be one of factor which helps to detect a jet...... In that case.... US should close F-15 production line....


I know who is kid here......

LOL!

you say im not MKI fan boy yet ur theory shows only foolishness that jf 17 with out an AWACS is blind against MKI....LOL!


read it again and have a nice laugh at ur self and ur theory...and then i hope you will come to know that u are really a KID...

 

[Storm Force]

LOTS OF HOT AIR and heavey breathing regarding RCS and radars

People are concentrating on only 2 things RCS and range of radar.

THE DIFFRENCE in the 2 planes is far more complex (too complex for 99% of us in this forum)

FOR A START

SU30MKI carries a PESA tech radar. PESA radars fall between the AESA technology and the much older MSA radar found on 3rd generation fighters..

JF17 carries a older Mechanical sterring atenna radar. THIS means despite the boasting of radar ranges ITS realatively easier to jam by the SU30MKI elta jammers and IT processes data at only half the speed.

Your arguments over who wil,spot who are so flawed and all these rash assumptions of we have better pilots and you will be over PAK airspace are just HOT AIR

I suggest you all read up a neutral western source on the evolving PESA radar tech,, TVC on fighters like SU30MKI F22 & J20 & PAK FA before you contribute...