How much of Pakistani culture is Indian?

[KRAIT]

It is true that you are the most ignorant person I have met on PDF, but it is also true that you smash your own records for being stupid and ill-informed with effortless ease. Except Kalam, all the other Muslim presidents, Zakir Hussain, Mohammed Hidayatullah, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, were non-BJP appointees.

Joe sir, I had to admit that you posted one of the sophisticated insult on PDF.

Respect _/|\_

This guy is way too confused.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,

There are many who may not agree with the above description, that no major movement of peoples took place during the end of IVC as it existed then. For one, how do you presume the Brahui language is linked to the Dravidian, considering the huge distance between the two locations and the era that we talk about. Yes, trade was taking place even between the IVC and rest of india and even Mesopotamia and the IVC seals were located in present day UAE. However, the language linkages may only happen when there is some movement of peoples between two places is taking place, even if takes a millennium or more.

My dear Ticker,

I am genuinely distressed that you should lend yourself to these hair-pulling contests. You should also consider the facts and consult references before comment.

Brahui links to Dravidian language family is a linguistic determination, not a political one. Neither I nor any other Indian had anything to do with it, I can assure you.

The distances are irrelevant; it seems that you have not read the copious information in the notes that I submit on historical or proto-historical topics. The whole of peninsular India spoke Dravidian languages before the superior (linguistically speaking) Indo-Aryan languages came in, sometime around 1500 BC.

So everybody around the present pockets of Brahui are thought to have spoken some version of a Dravidian language. Traces of these languages are still detectable today, through the IVC and the Gangetic plain. The language went to people, people did not go to the language.

It was not due to trade, then, or to the movement of populations, but due to the movement of languages. Consider the spread of Persian in mediaeval India and you will understand. It was adopted far beyond its number of native speakers and their own immediate environment, it became the administrative language for northern India. Yet if you check the numbers of ethnic Persians, they may not have been more than a fraction of the Persian-speaking, reading and writing population.

I request you to play a positive role in today's milieu. The members from both the Internet Hindu community and the Internet Muslims include some very stupid people, and all rational people should educate them and keep them under control.

 

[Ticker]

Don't you feel ashamed to reply like this? Just curious. Can you be so dishonest and justify it on the grounds that it helps you in your war with Internet Hindus to distort the truth and strike dishonest postures? The others are bone stupid. You are not. What do you hope to achieve by these tactics? Credibility? In whose eyes?

Why are you getting flustered about a comment I made in a context and you were not addressed. Relax.

 

[Don Jaguar]

Mein tu kafi deer pehlay hi chup ho gaya tha lakin ye loog abhi tak lagay hain.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Look, please do not mix the international governance order and history in the manner that you are suggesting. 1935 was an administrative act, promulgated by Mountbatten whose inclinations were more clearer in the proceedings up to 1947.

I do not agree with your contention. The known history of old India emanated from what is now Pakistan. You can claim some historical aspects because a lot of people who existed in old India remained in new India. You can not take away the fact that IVC and its original peoples are Pakistanis and a limited portion of India. I have already answered to your contention in another post, that as the IVC ended, its people some how died with it. Have a heart Sir, where did you come out with this unacceptable theory.

I have already, on another occasion, listed the historical, political, religious, social, artistic, architectural and military aspects of India before 1947 which had no origination in the Indus. The known history of old India did not emanate from what is now Pakistan, as that elaborate but incomplete presentation showed.

Regarding the IVC, how could it die so completely that its existing people maintained not even a shred of remembrance or contact with it? What is the value of your claim of an ongoing link considering that the remains were found by a Bengali babu working for the British, and that the British taught us every thing we know today about the IVC? If the people living around it had a link, they should be able to display at least a shred of a connection? They should have informed the British that their ancient ruins lay below? They had no idea what was under the debris.

So how do you link the culture and the people? Just physical proximity?

Why are you getting flustered about a comment I made in a context and you were not addressed. Relax.

Flustered? No, saddened.

 

[Ticker]

It is true that you are the most ignorant person I have met on PDF, but it is also true that you smash your own records for being stupid and ill-informed with effortless ease. Except Kalam, all the other Muslim presidents, Zakir Hussain, Mohammed Hidayatullah, Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed, were non-BJP appointees.

There has been no Muslim prime minister because it is the most sought after political job in India. People do not get it because of their religion; they get it because the political situation dictates that they do. Like Manmohan Singh got it.

Sir,

And then you get flustered on some of my comments, when I have to respond to certain gentlemen.

And on many such occasions I don't use the Victorian sophistication which may escape certain cells meant to activate understanding.

 

[RazPaK]

Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?


Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.

 

[Don Jaguar]

Why are Indians trying so hard to prove that we have the same culture?


Pakistanis should just say yes to make them happy. These guys are very stubborn and ziddy.

We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?

 

[RazPaK]

We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?

Because the thread won't end, If we don't.

 

[Ticker]

My dear Ticker,

I am genuinely distressed that you should lend yourself to these hair-pulling contests. You should also consider the facts and consult references before comment.

Brahui links to Dravidian language family is a linguistic determination, not a political one. Neither I nor any other Indian had anything to do with it, I can assure you.

The distances are irrelevant; it seems that you have not read the copious information in the notes that I submit on historical or proto-historical topics. The whole of peninsular India spoke Dravidian languages before the superior (linguistically speaking) Indo-Aryan languages came in, sometime around 1500 BC.

So everybody around the present pockets of Brahui are thought to have spoken some version of a Dravidian language. Traces of these languages are still detectable today, through the IVC and the Gangetic plain. The language went to people, people did not go to the language.

It was not due to trade, then, or to the movement of populations, but due to the movement of languages. Consider the spread of Persian in mediaeval India and you will understand. It was adopted far beyond its number of native speakers and their own immediate environment, it became the administrative language for northern India. Yet if you check the numbers of ethnic Persians, they may not have been more than a fraction of the Persian-speaking, reading and writing population.

I request you to play a positive role in today's milieu. The members from both the Internet Hindu community and the Internet Muslims include some very stupid people, and all rational people should educate them and keep them under control.

I am sorry I distress you. Please forgive me. I respect you for your abilities and the vision you project. You are a rare intellectual.

I am different though. I am what I am, and I like to interject frustration amongst the lot on certain occasions - probably because I can. I know it does not sound good on almost all the occasions, but I do want to have fun at times. Let me.

I though still have some difference of opinion with regard to the linguistics theory that you profess. How and why did Persian language spread as it did and the spread of other languages. A lot has been written about this and is indeed very interesting. But that for some later time.

I am again sorry if I distress you Sir. But I am not going to even attempt to change. Please let me remain what I am - may be an outlaw of sorts in your jargon.

 

[INDIC]

We don't have the same culture bro. Indus valley civilization is ours that's a fact. So why we lie?

You once told your ancestors were from Uttar Pradesh.

 

[Ticker]

I have already, on another occasion, listed the historical, political, religious, social, artistic, architectural and military aspects of India before 1947 which had no origination in the Indus. The known history of old India did not emanate from what is now Pakistan, as that elaborate but incomplete presentation showed.

Regarding the IVC, how could it die so completely that its existing people maintained not even a shred of remembrance or contact with it? What is the value of your claim of an ongoing link considering that the remains were found by a Bengali babu working for the British, and that the British taught us every thing we know today about the IVC? If the people living around it had a link, they should be able to display at least a shred of a connection? They should have informed the British that their ancient ruins lay below? They had no idea what was under the debris.

So how do you link the culture and the people? Just physical proximity?




Flustered? No, saddened.

I am sorry you are saddened. Please don't be. I still have to learn a lot from you. On occasions I will challenge you for the sake of challenge, to learn more. And on other occasions, I will contest your outlay because I may feel that I am on the right.

I posted a reply to your earlier statement regarding no IVC linkages with the current times. There are some very renowned Pakistani archeologists who have written about these aspects. I will try to get the links, if these are available or the books or papers they have written on the subject.

Here if I may, I will re-post some of my comments which I posted earlier.

To say that Harappan people just vanished out of thin air and no trace of them has been left is factually wrong. Their legacy also remains in many forms even to this day.

After 1900 BC there were no longer references to Meluhha in Mesopotamian writings, and no Indus seals are found in Mesopotamia after that date. Whatever the reasons of their diminishing trade – may it be changing course of river, drought, Aryan invasion, decease, earthquakes or whatever, the fact remains that their cities shrank in the second millennium BC, yes, but people still lived in places like Harappa long after that.

The continuing prosperity of the bigger cities, like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, may have made them grow too large and unwieldy to administer, and so groups may have split off into smaller settlements. But those settlements were held together by their common culture. Perhaps the dispersal was a way of providing flexibility to deal with the reasons I explained above.

Some of the aspects that we can still trace their legacy to are the commerce routes they developed. Traders from the highlands of Pakistan’s Baluchistan and northern Afghanistan brought in copper, tin and lapis lazuli. The Makran and southern coasts of Pakistan provided decorative shells. Timber was floated down the rivers from the Himalayas and gold from southern Central Asia. Skilled Harappan artisans and specialized craftsmen turned such raw materials into useful and beautiful products for regional distribution and—as finds elsewhere have shown—for export by land and sea to Mesopotamia, Persia and Central Asia.

“The southern states controlled the sea trade, just as Karachi does today. Ships from Meluhha [the Mesopotamian name for the Harappan nation] regularly sailed from Lothal near modern-day Karachi, Pakistan for the ports of Babylon.” And they evidently made stops all along the way, as I mentioned earlier that Indus River seals have been found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The modern city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of the Harappans’ main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar south into rugged tribal territory, through the modern towns of Pakistan’s Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Pakistan’s Sulaiman Mountains, and on down across the Gomal Plain to the early Harappan site of Rehman Dheri, where an important excavation was conducted from 1976 to 1980.

I agree with you that Hindu Aryan culture was distinctly different than the culture of the Indus Valley Civilization, which was not Hindu and yes were not Muslim either.

The IVC was mostly restricted to the valley of the Indus—however at the tail end of the civilization some of it dispersed into areas beyond the IVC.

The 3 Major IVC cities are all located in Pakistan. One in Western Pakistan, one in South and the last one approx in central Pakistan.

Current day India didn’t exist during IVC, and their religion had nothing to do with IVC, and major IVC settlements are not even located in India. However, Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization” which is indeed surprising.

Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and it cannot be denied, because various peoples after their decline ruled or invaded the area.

Therefore, we the people of Pakistan rightly claim ourselves to be the scions of and holders of Indus Valley Civilization.

 

[Storm Force]

We live in YEAR 2012 & NOT year 3000 BC

Cultures religions traditions EVOVLE & MATURE over time.

IVC (indus valley civilastion) is a western term/reference

99% OF THE GL;OBAL POPLULATION has no idea what IVC means

99% of the world live in YEAR 2012.

to them pakistan is

1. located in the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT
2. Has the INDIAN OCEAN on its shores
3. Was divided only 65 years from GREATER india

Pakistanis have been a seperate entity for 65 years of a 3000 year old IVC . IE less than 2% of the histrical timeframe..

IT SEEMS TO ME THE WORD INDIA surrounds PAKISTAN geopgraphically, historically, tradiotionaly etc.

ITS WILL BE HARD TO CREATE YOUR OWN PAKISTANI CULTURE which the GLOBAL WORLD CAN RELATE TOO as INDIA. INDIANS carry too much clout TODAY & THROUGHT TIME./HISTORY

 

[Ticker]

We live in YEAR 2012 & NOT year 3000 BC

Cultures religions traditions EVOVLE & MATURE over time.

IVC (indus valley civilastion) is a western term/reference

99% OF THE GL;OBAL POPLULATION has no idea what IVC means

99% of the world live in YEAR 2012.

to them pakistan is

1. located in the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT
2. Has the INDIAN OCEAN on its shores
3. Was divided only 65 years from GREATER india

Pakistanis have been a seperate entity for 65 years of a 3000 year old IVC . IE less than 2% of the histrical timeframe..

IT SEEMS TO ME THE WORD INDIA surrounds PAKISTAN geopgraphically, historically, tradiotionaly etc.

ITS WILL BE HARD TO CREATE YOUR OWN PAKISTANI CULTURE which the GLOBAL WORLD CAN RELATE TOO as INDIA. INDIANS carry too much clout TODAY & THROUGHT TIME./HISTORY

These clouts come and go in a nation's history.

You were nobody's some years ago.

Geopolitically you are still weaker than Pakistan despite your growing and now receding economy.

The Indian sub continent that you refer to is now called South Asia and only current Indians call it Indian sub continent and feel great about it.

Indian instead of surrounding Pakistan in any capacity is surrounded on three sides by powerful and nuclear armed China and Pakistan. The only place you can move out to is the sea. You can go and pea in it for all we care.

India in its current form came in to being only 65 years ago from British India and before that Muslim India and before that was divided in to hundreds of small or slightly bigger principalities. Before that, it was more than 4000 years ago that the great Mauriyan Empire ruled it. And you you are clinging to that 4000 year old entity and some much smaller entities thereafter, till Muslims came and constructed what was subsequently called India.

What global world do you relate to. The one which comes to you for payment of pittance to seek services of your poor slave labour. For half a billion souls living under poverty line.

What are you talking about. First learn to relate yourself to the current India itself and then talk about how big India was 4000 years ago.

Currently, the current India just shines like a mirage and nothing more.

 

[Rafi]

Pakistani culture is unique with many flavors.

Plus - "Peccavi" -