How many sabres were captured?

[DARKY]

I see lot of logic in what PAF did...Wars are fought on strategy and not emotions...Pak strategy was defense of east lies in west...However after 65 showdown IAF, IA, IN were far better prepared and our strategy was merely to stop any advances of Pak in western sector...Unfortunately for PAK they could not make any significant gains in western sector...There was no reason to loose more plains in offense and left with little or no fire power for defense should IA chose to broaden tha combat sector in western sector...

What kind of strategy is to let your naval as well as army's mechanized assets being destroyed like tin cans can preserving your aircrafts if the country is so incapable it should have surrendered rather than fighting the war illprepared and illequipped what strategy is to send a whole mechanized division without any air support when there are 5-6 airbases of enemy hardly in 100km circle...... and what about the naval arena while the missile boats were regularly buzzing off Karachi coast the Air Force was kept at bay whats the purpose the saving of planes serve when about half of the navy is destroyed.

 

[deckingraj]

Actually you are talking about an era when all three wings of armed forces operate as per their own specific plans...Even now true interoperability b/w three wings is a distant dream..Anyhow let me share my thoughts

What kind of strategy is to let your naval as well as army's mechanized assets being destroyed like tin cans can preserving your aircrafts if the country is so incapable it should have surrendered rather than fighting the war

They actually did surrender, right??? B/W their strategy was very simple - Attack IAF bases, give them a solid punch and paralyze them for as long as possible...This will help them big time in capturing some significant land in India which would have come handy during cease fire...

In fact if you read somewhat more about Pakistani plans then they were banking heavily on two things...

- LIke 65 PAF pre-emptive strikes will put IAF on the back foot
- International community will step in and force India for a ceasefire...

Unfortunately for them IAF and Indian establishment had done their homework pretty well...PAF pre-emptive strike were pretty much ineffective...and rest is history....

illprepared and illequipped what strategy is to send a whole mechanized division without any air support when there are 5-6 airbases of enemy hardly in 100km circle......

Partly answered above...Look at the number of offensive sorties that IAF flew...Do you really think PAF had anything to spare??? May be you are forgetting that we enjoy'd numerical superiority over them and with induction of Mig-21 we had quality as well...

and what about the naval arena while the missile boats were regularly buzzing off Karachi coast the Air Force was kept at bay whats the purpose the saving of planes serve when about half of the navy is destroyed.

a
I am not sure how effective PAF would have been in saving the PN...Anyways as said they had their hands full dealing with IAF offensive sorties...

Look your questions are valid and perhaps someone can answer...My stay here has taught me that PAF was saving their planes to inflict a big strong punch but by the time they could, surrender was already on cards...Is this truth, was their lack of synergy b/w three wings etc etc i don't know for sure...However PAF did give us hard time in both 65 and 71 and there should be no doubts about it...Having said that i have no doubts in my mind that IAF outmatched PAF in both western and eastern sectors during 71 war....

 

[Windjammer]

@ WIndjammer:

I like messing with you,

Sorry can't help you there, I am a straight forward guy.

you go all Rambo on the keyboard !!

Let' see....
John Rambo.....the weekend warrior.!!
John Wayne.....the cowboy !!
John Cleese......the joker !!
Seems all evidence points to one direction with the exception of....you can argue, that you are not a cowboy but an Indian.

Ok, please read what I last typed and reply only to that. Why copy paste stuff that is irrelevant?

So after a little frivolous behaviour , are we talking sanity.!! ??
One can be sure as hell that from my previous post, the egg has landed squarely.

Lastly, are so sure of this Mig-21 shootdown photo's origins, tell us who was the IAF pilot, who was the PAF pilot and when and where did this shootdown take place. The last time I asked you the same, you did not have any believable answer.

Guess what.... none of man's best friends have come back to contradict me on the image.
And we are waiting for the evidence on the Mirages..... just one grainy shot or a piece of wreckage. Are you certain, your armed forces actually shot down the Mirages...... may be they just saw a Mirage..... like the Oasis in the dessert. I suggest, you start messing with Jagan.... perhaps he can give you an escape route.

 

[SQ8]

Actually you are talking about an era when all three wings of armed forces operate as per their own specific plans...Even now true interoperability b/w three wings is a distant dream..Anyhow let me share my thoughts




They actually did surrender, right??? B/W their strategy was very simple - Attack IAF bases, give them a solid punch and paralyze them for as long as possible...This will help them big time in capturing some significant land in India which would have come handy during cease fire...

In fact if you read somewhat more about Pakistani plans then they were banking heavily on two things...

- LIke 65 PAF pre-emptive strikes will put IAF on the back foot
- International community will step in and force India for a ceasefire...

Unfortunately for them IAF and Indian establishment had done their homework pretty well...PAF pre-emptive strike were pretty much ineffective...and rest is history....




Partly answered above...Look at the number of offensive sorties that IAF flew...Do you really think PAF had anything to spare??? May be you are forgetting that we enjoy'd numerical superiority over them and with induction of Mig-21 we had quality as well...


a
I am not sure how effective PAF would have been in saving the PN...Anyways as said they had their hands full dealing with IAF offensive sorties...

Look your questions are valid and perhaps someone can answer...My stay here has taught me that PAF was saving their planes to inflict a big strong punch but by the time they could, surrender was already on cards...Is this truth, was their lack of synergy b/w three wings etc etc i don't know for sure...However PAF did give us hard time in both 65 and 71 and there should be no doubts about it...Having said that i have no doubts in my mind that IAF outmatched PAF in both western and eastern sectors during 71 war....

There is no doubting the Outmatch..
I believe a discussion on this subject has occurred earlier between me and John... and perhaps others.
I dont recall that thread.. but I might be a good read.

 

[John Doe]

Sorry can't help you there, I am a straight forward guy.

The classes begin again:
Firstly , the expression is 'I am straight', NOT ' I am Straight forward' You actually brought a smile to my face with this sentence, for that I and all the other readers thank you!!!

And we are waiting for the evidence on the Mirages.....

Please go back and read all my posts again. I have repeatedly busted your line of " all Mirages were lined up before the international media". You have yourself agreed that one other Mirage was in the hangar, not seen by anyone.

Why do I need to show photos of Mirage wreckage? Have I made any claims myself? I have only quoted other authors. Not once agreeing or disagreeing with these writers. And eventually if it is proved that the PAF had only 23 Mirages during the entire 1971 conflict, and that the 23rd Mirage was indeed in the hangar as witnesses by impeccable sources, I am always open to correction. On the other hand show me one , just one post in this forum where you have admitted to being wrong. Right here on this thread, how many times were you shown to be lying??

If anything, YOU have to show us a photo of the Gnat that you swear was shot by Afzal Chaudhary. Only you can save his honour and prove wrong Sajjad Haider and all the other pilots on the Eastern front!

Still waiting for your comment on who shot the Mig 21 and who the unfortunate IAF pilot was. Surely you, with all your high level contacts (sic) can give us this info. Or is it Top Secret?

 

[AmberDutt]

Still waiting for your comment on who shot the Mig 21 and who the unfortunate IAF pilot was. Surely you, with all your high level contacts (sic) can give us this info. Or is it Top Secret?

The proof will be provided at the right time

 

[SQ8]

Would that mig be the one that was shot down by Flt lt Aamer Sheriff flying an F-86?
Or the reported kill by an F-6..
Im not sure of the gun camera on the F-6.. so It could be one from an F-86.
it definitely looks like a Mig-21FL or type 77 as it was known in IAF service.

 

[Windjammer]

The classes begin again:
Firstly , the expression is 'I am straight', NOT ' I am Straight forward' You actually brought a smile to my face with this sentence, for that I and all the other readers thank you!!!



Please go back and read all my posts again. I have repeatedly busted your line of " all Mirages were lined up before the international media". You have agreed that one other Mirage was in the hangar, not seen by anyone.

Why do I need to show photos of Mirage wreckage? The Mirage claims are not mine, I am repeating other authors. Unlike you, I am always open to correction. Show me one , just one post in this forum where you have admitted to being wrong.

If anything, YOU have to show us photos of Gnats shot by Afzal Chaudhary. Only you can save his honour and prove Sajjad Haider and all the other pilots on the Eastern front!

Still waiting for your comment on who shot the Mig 21 and who the unfortunate IAF pilot was. Surely you, with all your high level contacts (sic) can give us this info. Or is it Top Secret?

Well hold on to your horses, one can be both straight and straight forward.... straight as in your mind and straight forward in one's deliverance. wasted.
Damn, folks 40 year back never thought of taking the shot of the Mirage in the hangar to kill some curiosity. what to say of....curiosity killed the cat. And since you can't stop praising your self, what and where did you exactly managed to burst anything. Did I say 24 Mirages were in the line up, and did you crane your neck to see what was inside the hangar...... for the same effort, the author could have said, one Mirage was still at a FOB or on a mission or something.
Now the highlighted part is interesting, blow me if I ever claimed to have been in the war or served in the forces, albeit, it burns some in the wrong places to know that I have my contacts. As far as I am concerned, you are just a minute detail who just wants attention, if the MODS feel my posts are out of place, they can easily delete them, but then I am not the one looking at others post count.

 

[John Doe]

@SANTRO
I remember googling Aamir Sharif the last time this photo came up, and here was my post:
"If you look at Jagan's table, it states that 1 was lost to F/L Maqsood Amir, 2 were lost accidently(incl.one self-goal), and the remaining 3 Mig 21s to AAA.These 3 were shot down in Pakistan naturally.
So this mention of Amir Shariff is a twist in the tale, does the official PAF list of IAF losses mention him?
"

I also looked at the following site to identify which version of the Mig 21 it was. But I could not tell. This has to be one of the best sites for Mig 21 fans:

Versions of the MiG-21 - MiG-21.de

 

[Windjammer]

Would that mig be the one that was shot down by Flt lt Aamer Sheriff flying an F-86?
Or the reported kill by an F-6..
Im not sure of the gun camera on the F-6.. so It could be one from an F-86.
it definitely looks like a Mig-21FL or type 77 as it was known in IAF service.

Santro, it's former, and as I said earlier, since it's a small image, turn it into a desk top..... the roundels on the wing are evident as is the Indian pilot's ejection sequence which Hussaini depicted in one of his works.

 

[John Doe]

blow me if I ever claimed ........

Are you still going with the "I am straight' alibi??!!??

Du bist unglaublich, Mein Freund!

 

[Windjammer]

Are you still going with the "I am straight' alibi??!!??

Du bist unglaublich, Mein Freund!

The difference is you lived in America, may be close to San Francisco, to certain terms, we have different meanings and expression.
Hope you understand.

 

[John Doe]

it's former............evident as is the Indian pilot's ejection sequence which Hussaini depicted in one of his works.

Come now, if you are so confident that it was Aamir Sharif, then why wait till some one else came up with the name?

Secondly, are you sure that a painting should be taken as proof in a historical discussion? Remember that we had this discussion before, and how it turned out for you.

Again, to sum up:

You have NO proof that the 23 rd Mirage was actually in the hangar, nobody saw it.

YOur statement that "all Mirages were on the Line up photo" is FALSE.

You have no proof or idea where the Mig 21 photo came from. You just whacked it from the Pakdef forum like I pointed out the last time too!

 

[SQ8]

@SANTRO
I remember googling Aamir Sharif the last time this photo came up, and here was my post:
"If you look at Jagan's table, it states that 1 was lost to F/L Maqsood Amir, 2 were lost accidently(incl.one self-goal), and the remaining 3 Mig 21s to AAA.These 3 were shot down in Pakistan naturally.
So this mention of Amir Shariff is a twist in the tale, does the official PAF list of IAF losses mention him?
"

I also looked at the following site to identify which version of the Mig 21 it was. But I could not tell. This has to be one of the best sites for Mig 21 fans:

Versions of the MiG-21 - MiG-21.de

My bad john.. I meant to say Maqsood Amir.
Aamir Sheriff's kill would have had to be verified by either Gun cam.. or wreckage.. the latter can only confirm a loss. not who got a kill.
ACdre Pat callighan was the PAF officer in charge of verifying kills from wrecks in 71.. (gun damage on wreck. etc).. and was also fairly thorough.

 

[John Doe]

Hello boy!!!

Sorry I did not realize this earlier, Windjammer, but I believe that your claim that this photo that you love uploading is of Aamir Sharif in a F-86 Sabre belongs with your other discredited posts that need deletion.

You see, Aamir Sharif was flying an Chinese F-6

And the last time you posted this photo, you said that this was a photo from Flt Lt. Maqsood Amir on 17th December !!!!

Man, isn't it so tough to keep track of your stories? How do you do it? Oh wait , you don't. See below to read your own words:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/85172-last-air-battle-day-14.html#post1463173


@Santro:
Sorry, we posted at the same time. But you see my point about this photo having no solid proof of origin? This photo has been plugged for ages as the proof of Windjammer's following theory:

That's correct, the kill (Flt. Lt. Amir Ali Shariff on 14th Dec in 11 SQD flying F-6) was achieved over Shakargar area, another MIG-21 was shot down on 17th December by Flt. Lt. Maqsood Amir flying in an F-86.
Ironically it has emerged that yet another MIG-21 was shot down in air combat by No. 14 Sqn in the Eastern sector, again by an F-86.

Of course, WJ is the only one who knows who in the PAF shot down this mystery IAF Mig 21 and who was the unlucky Indian pilot!

Also you can also see that the F-6 guncam looks rather different, more reason why I don't believe that Aamir Sharif's guncam is the one we have been hitherto discussing. OT, Aamir's claim was in Indian airspace. Plus see the photo, it is not too emphatic by itself to show a kill. The IAF does not acknowledge this shootdown either. See link below:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/40522-flash-back-air-war-1971-a.html#post569896