How LETHAL is PAF J-10C Vigorous Dragon? The Game Changer for Pakistan Air Force...by Sqn Ldr (R) Fahad Masood, a former PAF mirage specialist.

[FuturePAF]

We need a few squadrons of J11s too.

Supercrusing J-10 powered by the WS-15 would probably be better for the PAF; smaller plane/lower RCS, potentially similar range, and more maneuverable.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Supercrusing J-10 powered by the WS-15 would probably be better for the PAF; smaller plane/lower RCS, potentially similar range, and more maneuverable.

As per a brochure by AVIC J-10C with existing power source is capable of pseudo-supercruise, which I take to be maintaining supersonic speed with military thrust after it has gone supersonic with after burner. However, there is scant detail on whether this can be achieved with external load.

 

[FuturePAF]

As per a brochure by AVIC J-10C with existing power source is capable of pseudo-supercruise, which I take to be maintaining supersonic speed with military thrust after it has gone supersonic with after burner. However, there is scant detail on whether this can be achieved with external load.

Hence the need for a more powerful engine and some small design changes. An effort the PAF should get behind. Higher sustained speed will probably mean, if there is an engagement, the plane will probably be high and fast and be able to impart that energy to a missile it is firing, giving it some extra range.

Furthermore, for long range naval patrols, the J-10 would then be able to better come to the aid of surface ships or deal with Enemy MPA patrolling in a sector where a possible PN sub is operating.

The J-10 developed to the point it match’s all the capabilities of the Eurocanards, and then adds some more of its own.

 

[gambit]

Hence the need for a more powerful engine and some small design changes. An effort the PAF should get behind. Higher sustained speed will probably mean, if there is an engagement, the plane will probably be high and fast and be able to impart that energy to a missile it is firing, giving it some extra range.

Furthermore, for long range naval patrols, the J-10 would then be able to better come to the aid of surface ships or deal with Enemy MPA patrolling in a sector where a possible PN sub is operating.

The J-10 developed to the point it match’s all the capabilities of the Eurocanards, and then adds some more of its own.

Propulsion as a whole involves the inlet. We must slow down supersonic shockwaves that enter the inlet and jet engines do not like ingesting anything supersonic. Next is the airframe. Most airframes are designed to withstand stresses from speed and acceleration within certain flight regime. But now you are making the airframe handle stress from supersonic speed longer in duration than they were originally designed. Might as well design a new airplane.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hence the need for a more powerful engine and some small design changes. An effort the PAF should get behind. Higher sustained speed will probably mean, if there is an engagement, the plane will probably be high and fast and be able to impart that energy to a missile it is firing, giving it some extra range.

Furthermore, for long range naval patrols, the J-10 would then be able to better come to the aid of surface ships or deal with Enemy MPA patrolling in a sector where a possible PN sub is operating.

The J-10 developed to the point it match’s all the capabilities of the Eurocanards, and then adds some more of its own.

Hi,

Cheaper to invest in a better missile than changing the aircraft's structure.

I doubt that there is a higher benefit of a higher sustained speed than where the speed capability is now while looking at the cost factor.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

Just chiming in a bit about PL-15 that PAF is using. We are aware the PL-15E has a range of 145km, but that's the export model shown at Zhuhai airshow. Pakistan generally utilizes the same models as PLAAF with slight modifications, rather than the dumbed down export versions. During the Kargil Conflict, PAF had the option to directly pull from PLAAF inventory should it needed additional planes. That's not just some friendly gesture, but indications that PAF pilots were already well familiar with operating Chinese planes and weapon systems. Without some degree of interoperability, pilots can't jump into a random plane and expect to perform in combat.

Going by that bit of tradition, Pakistan is likely using China's domestic version of PL-15 with over 180km range.

Circumstantial evidence. We are guessing in the absence of concrete information out there.

aggressors will stay with F16 variants in CCS. J10 wont unless we get J10D/E/F of future....the least no in CCS for any a/c type is 6.

BTW 16/16+ sqn strength isnt hard n fast rule for high end a/c. Point still stands. Another example, check the strength of Nauman Akram Shaheed's f16 sqn.

And J10 is a HIGH END FIGHTER! its now the PAF's high end and best fighter, F16 is dethroned.

haha u might want to follow the PAF affiliated twitter public accounts to truly gauge the mood in PAF abt j10c and her impact on PAF's psyche. For whom F16 used to be the hallmark of excellence before 2020 shaheen exe when PLAAF allowed for the first time unrestricted use in these exe. For the first time PAF SAW what truly is a 4.5++ is, and how the real n true 5th gen technology that it carries of J20 are! That a/c backed up by unrestricted PLAAF jammer/EW aircrafts, Their latest AWACS that they brought for these exe. etc Had really raped PAF no matter what they threw at them they had an answer for it. They truly made PAF felt helpless and beaten them constantly as if u tide a person then starting yr barrage of laatain mukkay on him. As much as helpless he feels, thats how helpless PAF felt infront of them. And According to windjammer, these exercises almost gave somebody in PAF high command a heart attack back in december 2020. Now thats whats happening amongst the regular PAF pilots too specially amongst F16 sqns.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1550161378106904576

My God man! i still cant forgive myself of how wrong i was abt the analysis of @MastanKhan all these years. And whatever Mastan Sahab used to say, is now proving right one by one. He and @Khafee both were right abt J10C.

Now this fact is coming on the surface right in public view.

Do you think folks behind psf are PAF affiliated? Oh boy!

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Cheaper to invest in a better missile than changing the aircraft's structure.

I doubt that there is a higher benefit of a higher sustained speed than where the speed capability is now while looking at the cost factor.

Considering the Aim-260A should be operational by 2030, there is probably a similar ranged Chinese missile in development. Perhaps higher sustained speed is not as beneficial, but I had assumed the J-10 could benefit from being able to hold heavier payload, and independently carry Anti-ship missiles as well as BVR and WVR missiles while still being able to maneuver to protect itself.

To your earlier point of a naval fighter to carry 2 x 1000 kg Anti-Ship missiles, perhaps just equipping some J-10 with the AShCM or AShBM and other J-10s providing cover with Air to Air missiles. Better mission planning and using multiple aircraft is probably a better and safe approach.

 

[iLION12345_1]

J10c is superior to F16 (at least on paper) but the upgraded version indian Su30MKI and the Tejas MK2 which is under development is likely to be far superior to J10c Pakistan needs to acquire J20 to deter the modernization of IAF

MK1A hasn’t even flown yet and you’re worrying about MK2. And MKi couldn’t even hold its own against JF-17 block 2s and in your words “ancient, 50 year old” F-16s. Stop spouting rubbish.

 

[SQ8]

J10c is superior to F16 (at least on paper) but the upgraded version indian Su30MKI and the Tejas MK2 which is under development is likely to be far superior to J10c Pakistan needs to acquire J20 to deter the modernization of IAF

Those are bhaktora gods..Pakistan will need the X-wing starfighter and even those will not be enough

 

[siegecrossbow]

MK1A hasn’t even flown yet and you’re worrying about MK2. And MKi couldn’t even hold its own against JF-17 block 2s and in your words “ancient, 50 year old” F-16s. Stop spouting rubbish.

Is this based on encounters during/shortly after Swift Retort or have there been recent encounters?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

And MKi couldn’t even hold its own against JF-17 block 2s

while rubbishing the laughable claims of that poster you fell in a trap and made a claim yourself which cant be backed up

 

[iLION12345_1]

Is this based on encounters during/shortly after Swift Retort or have there been recent encounters?

while rubbishing the laughable claims of that poster you fell in a trap and made a claim yourself which cant be backed up

It is a reference to Swift retort, lest we forget that it were indeed JF-17 Block 2s that escorted the Strike package and were also part of the strike package itself. There are no direct confrontations in A2A combat anymore, there are a dozen factors involved on both sides. If anything even the PAF seems to change its claim of who shot down what, at IDEAS somehow the F-16 became a JF-17, technically, all the jets flying that day played a part in the shooting down of enemy aircraft and successful strikes, one just happened to pull the trigger. Just as the F-16s were tracking the enemy, so too were JF-17s, they just didn’t get permission to engage.
A JF-17 could just have easily been the one to pull a trigger and then despite not really having done more than what the F-16 did, everyone would be talking about how the JF-17 was now superior to an MKi.
A jet v jet now is simply judged by a successful OP like that, at least in my book.

Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot

The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On condition…

hushkit.net

 

[Horse_Rider]

Supercrusing J-10 powered by the WS-15 would probably be better for the PAF; smaller plane/lower RCS, potentially similar range, and more maneuverable.

Yes and absolutely. We need to internalize the J-10C production line similar to a JV we did with the JFT. A J-10C production line would produce cheap immediate results since it's a matured platform with 600 jets built, while the JFT was a new platform with challenges.

J-10C local production (50-60% ToT is fine) to build a local industry, we can do integration / upgrades and create new versions per our needs (with Chinese R&D support available to us).

Later, the Chinese can create a 5th gen design based on a single engine J-20 (for example), that can also be manufactured using this J-10C production line locally and we can sustain both 4.5++ gen and a 5th gen platform in large numbers much cheaper with 50-60% build locally with goals to produce 100% in the future. J-10C is our Rafale and Gripen. We should be able to go worry free on our Hi-Lo combo (J-10C / JFT) in the future by doing this kind of a JV

The JFT has built a strong Center of Excellence (COE) and we need to expand it to J-10C now. We produce over 50,000 engineering students annually and a part of this talent can be used in these projects growing the economy and the defense sector and becoming independent! Our next stop should be doing a JV around 2028-2030 on TFX / KizilElma / Akinci's and their associated BVR and stand off weapons that are built on top line Western tech. It's time to act smart and think longterm.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Yes and absolutely. We need to internalize the J-10C production line similar to a JV we did with the JFT. A J-10C production line would produce cheap immediate results since it's a matured platform with 600 jets built, while the JFT was a new platform with challenges.

J-10C local production (50-60% ToT is fine) to build a local industry, we can do integration / upgrades and create new versions per our needs (with Chinese R&D support available to us).

Later, the Chinese can create a 5th gen design based on a single engine J-20 (for example), that can also be manufactured using this J-10C production line locally and we can sustain both 4.5++ gen and a 5th gen platform in large numbers much cheaper with 50-60% build locally with goals to produce 100% in the future. J-10C is our Rafale and Gripen. We should be able to go worry free on our Hi-Lo combo (J-10C / JFT) in the future by doing this kind of a JV

The JFT has built a strong Center of Excellence (COE) and we need to expand it to J-10C now. We produce over 50,000 engineering students annually and a part of this talent can be used in these projects growing the economy and the defense sector and becoming independent! Our next stop should be doing a JV around 2028-2030 on TFX / KizilElma / Akinci's and their associated BVR and stand off weapons that are built on top line Western tech. It's time to act smart and think longterm.

Here again.. Oh God:

Copying from previous thread:

WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup the fking factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??

Come back to reality!

J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.

Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ?

Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf.

Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-

1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.

2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.

Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?

 

[Horse_Rider]

Here again.. Oh God:

Copying from previous thread:

WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup the fking factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??

Come back to reality!

J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.

Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ?

Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf.

Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-

1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.

2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.

Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?

Please take this POLITICAL DRAMA elsewhere. You clearly have NO real experience with economy or how to grow it, or, understanding of the fact that "we are NOT doomed"!! It's a rough path that will start to stabilize in the next 3-4 months. The proposal on growing aviation industry with J-10 will also help grow the economy whenever that would take place!

I am not here to teach your politically corrupt mind "economy". It seems you people are moving off from insulting the Army and now the new topic is "we are doomed"? Let's keep your politically motivated posts to some political thread. If you can't comprehend the topic don't respond to my posts and derail the thread.