Conscientious objector
BANNED
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- Jun 16, 2009
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I did not 'failed' to answer because there is no question. Criticism is not treason for US. May be it is for Islam, but if it is not for US, there can be no valid comparison. You need to look up what is normally considered to be 'treasonous' acts. But to initially filter out some more easily items:
Disobedience
Cowardice
Incompetence
Ignorance
None of them are 'treasonous'.
Let me ask you again What would the US army do to a soldier who was serving in Iraq or Afghanistan for example who started to criticise and question the legality of the war?If this soldier openly declared that he believed the US was engaged in illegal and immoral aggression against another sovereign state?
Really? Are you saying that in fact, the US actually imprisoned people for criticism? Last time I checked, Noam Chomsky roams freely, around the country and around the world, all the while spewing thinly disguised hatred for his country. In fact, the Pentagon indirectly paid for his research at MIT. Chomsky is a multi-millionaire from his speeches and his books. Chomsky actually called the Pentagon an 'evil' institution. Or how about Howard Zinn?
We have many examples in Islamic history of citizens taking and holding the leaders to account,we have examples of citizens criticising the caliph.These citizens were not punished in any way.So you are making a false comparison,criticism is not classed as treason in Islam at all.
Can you tell me how many years Alexander Cockburn of Counterpunch and The Nation, a bastion of liberal print journalism in the US and incessant critic of everything conservative, spent in prison? The US Constitution contains 'amendments' and they are there from what? Criticism, may be? The US had a bloody civil war to abolish institutionalized slavery in the country. Sane people would call that criticism in the extreme towards an issue.
Why you have gone off on this tangent of criticism I don't know maybe your trying to construct a straw man argument,but it wont work I can give you examples of people criticising Islamic rulers throughout history openly with no punishment,so whats your point?
As a 10yrs USAF veteran, I do not have an American flag planted in front of my house and very few people in my neighborhood know my veteran status. The vast majority of US veterans do not openly daily flaunt their status. No one call us 'unpatriotic'. From my experience alone, I have doubts about your claim, which seems to imply that such labeling of people is widespread. Still, even if this does happen, how is it the equal of a death sentence for apostasy? You are treading into the absurd.
Your argument is absurd because initially we were not discussing criticism.The example of the flag applies if your a Muslim living in the US,who is seen as being unpatriotic and its the Muslims that are pressured into making public displays of their patriotism.
If you do not see how the US actually goes beyond tolerance but actually welcome criticism, you must be looking at your own society.
My own society is not an Islamic one so your point is ridiculous.
Are you saying that labeling or name calling is the equivalent of capital punishment for apostates? I understand this better than you do.
No but the crime is not the same as that of apostasy either.
Are you saying that the US is somehow unique in having interests in the affairs of other countries? What do you call the sponsorships of Hezbollah and Hamas? What do you call Saddam Hussein's attempt to unite Iraq and Syria into one country? Or you did not know about that?
This argument of yours is baseless as none of these nations are a Islamic state, rather their laws and constitutions are based on socialism/baathism etc
What do you call the Taliban's support for al-Qaeda when Mullah Omar were in full knowledge of al-Qaeda's global operations?
I call this another one of your false accusations,where is your proof?
Please...The US is the largest single donor to the Palestinians, larger than any Arab state that shed crocodile tears for them. When natural disasters struck in Asia, the muslims there were asking, in anger at that, at the reporters:'Where is America?' Not 'Where are my muslim brothers and sisters?' but 'Where is America?' It is 'Death to America' when convenient but whenever, as the proverbial natural disaster sh!t hit the fan, US Navy ships and aid are always welcome and even expected as dues.
For the tsunami that struck South Asia, oil wealthy Saudi Arabia gave $10 millions but actress Sandra Bullock, who does not own a single oil derrick, managed to give $1 million. Catholic Relief Services had its web servers crashed because of donors traffic. In simple monetary terms, the US was behind Australia, Canada, Germany and Japan, but in merely a few days, the US military sent 13,000 men and women, two dozens ships and nearly one hundred aircrafts to deliver 300 tons of supplies. US warships also desalinated sea water for the victims. No one bothered to do the math on that. Not one muslim country was in the top 10 donors list. Reuters news tracking had:
No. 20 Qatar: $25 million
No. 22 United Arab Emirates: $20 million
No. 27 Kuwait: $10 million
No. 32 Algeria: $2 million
No. 33 Bahrain: $2 million
No. 34 Libya: $2 million
Read this
Instead, the reality was that the world saw how imams tripped over themselves in trying to blame the disaster on US in every imaginable mental contortions.
Which Imams? quote one.
.Kuwait's law maker Walid Tabtabai said the tsunami was a punishment from Allah because the people neglected their prayers, listened to music and mixing the sexes
Kuwait is the lap dog of america, you could not give a worse example of an Islamic state if you tried.
I am here in Las Vegas and my girlfriend is a dealer at the Sahara, where is Allah's punishment for this modern day Sodom? The two of us alone certainly deserve it.
Every nation and every individual has its/his/her appointed time.
The US also saved muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. How many muslim troops did the guardian of Mecca and Medina sent to help US there?
The US didn't save jack it was the Mujahideen that repelled the aggression of the Serbs
So please lay off the hyperboles on how the US is a 'rogue' nation.
Make sure you read this
I do not care if the murder, or should we say -- execution -- of Theo van Gogh was sanctioned by any muslim nation. That is merely an administrative rubber stamp. It is the idea behind the deed that seemingly unite the muslims of the world and this is where we see who is truly being evasive -- YOU.
No initially your were saying
Did any ambassador or diplomatic delegation that can claim to speak for ALL the muslims in the world appealed to the Dutch government to extradite Theo van Gogh to a muslim dominated country to stand trial for committing a grave insult against Islam?
And now you say
I do not care if the murder, or should we say -- execution -- of Theo van Gogh was sanctioned by any muslim nation.
Why were you asking if any Muslim nation had asked for his extradition in that case if as you say you don't care? your not making sense man.
I asked (post no. 340) if you approved of the death sentence on apostate writer Salman Rushdie. You avoided the question in your response. Why?
I responded by telling you that a sentence can only be imposed after a trial.If you want to know if I think if he should stand trial then the answer is yes
Because deep down you know there is something amiss about the idea that a religion should have a death sentence other than the one that its god mete out.
No nothing is "amiss" everything is perfect I agree with it 100% without doubt.I hope you understand that
You hide behind a convenient shield composed of Quranic verses and the names of immam this and scholar that.
I'm not hiding I'm open and frank about my beliefs, I'm proud of them,I tell as many people as I possibly can about them.
Now you sidestep the same issue, which is the killing of anyone who disrespect Islam, by saying that no political and legal authority approved the sentence.
Its not sidestepping at all its the facts as I see them.There is a proper procedure which needs to be carried out.One person can not act as judge jury and executioner.
It does not matter if it is about Rushdie or van Gogh, it is about offending a religion and if there is a death sentence for one method of offense, it is only natural that the same can be for the other method.
Rephrase this I don't quite understand what you mean.If your asking me do I believe if those in question should be executed for their alleged crime then the answer is, if found guilty as charged in a court then YES I do without doubt. In fact I'd happily do it myself.
.The whole of Afghanistan? You must be joking. The US targeted only Taliban controlled areas
Here is just one example of many of the indiscriminate bombing by the rogue state you call america/home
Most of Afghanistan were under tribal authority. When these tribal leaders and petty warlords united with US, their people were no worse off than when the Taliban were in control.
The families of the thousands slaughtered by you air force and military would beg to differ
The right of vengeance, which is far more legitimate than how Iran justified the mullahs' war against Israel. The Taliban allowed al-Qaeda to used Afghanistan as a safe haven for recruitment and training.
Not one shred of evidence just empty rhetoric.
Under international laws, the ones you claimed the US flouted, any acts of war committed by al-Qaeda can be legitimately attributed to the ruling authority as an accomplice.
In that case we should hold the US responsible for the Oklahoma bombing and every other crime ever committed by anyone living in the US.
Please...Spare US more of these gross exaggerations.
Guantanamo bay is an exaggeration is it? Your living in denial
He hasn't been executed for apostasy as far as I know.I would like to see evidence of Salman Rushdie's trial for the crime of apostasy.
Of course...The ever so convenient CIA boogeyman.
Refer to the chapter in Rogue state about the CIA
.When thinking people see how you brought the CIA into this, they will see that you have lost the debate
As far as I'm concerned this "debate" as you call it is not about winning or losing, you inquired about the Islamic Ruling on an apostate and I explained.Now the fact that the explanation is not to your liking is not a problem for me.I did not for one second expect you to like it,I did my duty and was being courteous by explaining, but to be frank I couldn't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks.This is what I believe and I'm very aware that many have a problem with it, the bottom line is that I don't, I'm happy with my religion,praise be to Allah.
.Religion is about issues that are supposedly perfect, eternal and cosmic in scope
Well without wanting to sound arrogant, its only Islam that is perfect.
The US is an entity that is flawed and has a finite existence.
On the one hand you admit the flaws of the US and on the other you deny facts that prove the crimes against humanity committed by the US over the past 200 years or so,it is the very flaws that you admit to that you so ardently defend.
Notice how I have always tried to compare Islam against other religions, not against countries. When you try to justify certain Islamic principles against the flawed and finite US, you effectively trivialized your faith.
Yes and I was only pointing out that the Islamic ruling on apostates is nothing unusual in that all countries have laws to secure their interests and have punishments for those who's actions could lead to a breakdown in society.Islam being the practical way of life that it is has laws that are pragmatic and that effectively deal with the realities of our societies.
Islam is a way of life which encompasses every aspect of human life and not just those of the spiritual realm.There are laws relating TO everything from the environment to interaction between a man and his wife from the judicial system to healthy eating.Whilst these laws are perfect and divine they are also very practical.
My point in highlighting the flaws of the US was to point out the hypocrisy of those who claim that western standards of freedom and democracy are somehow superior to Islam which is seen by many in the west as being a cruel and barbaric religion.
I was in no way comparing the divine laws of Islam to any man made system but rather questioning the reasoning behind why someone should have a problem with laws that they falsely perceive as being intolerant etc when in fact they don't regard the crimes of their own nations as being in anyway questionable.
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