How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[Abu Zolfiqar]

yes Faruqi bro, I agree with you.

but the other guy was right. Can we expect to have a weakened taleban in Afghanistan when their support still exists?

Every time americans drop a bomb on civilians, it creates a lot of resentment.


Therefore, best option is for Americans to withdraw from Afghanistan. Medical companies should come into Afghanistan and use Afghan poppy for pharmaceutical industry.

they cant seem to be productive or find other ways to support their economy --- so if they have to be a bloody narc-state --let it be a legit narc-state (without the war-lordism culture)

 

[Faruqi]

Therefore, best option is for Americans to withdraw from Afghanistan. Medical companies should come into Afghanistan and use Afghan poppy for pharmaceutical industry.

I don't think medical companies will be willing to go into Afghanistan without proper security. Also the Taliban have targeted doctors, etc... in the past, especially those linked with vaccines, such as polio vaccines. I'm not sure medical companies would be willing to go into Afghanistan without NATO troops on the ground.

 

[Conscientious objector]

not really.

Yes really by Allah

Thanks for posting.

Is that thanks for posting but no thanks?

Maybe you can ask the taleban why they see themselves as the supreme rulers?

Now you are making a pathetic attempt to not respond to the Quranic verses, by diverting with this irrelevant question

Allah SWT is Holy Divine. But he wont sort out the affairs of the State. The Government will.

Allah the most high has set down laws to be implemented by the rulers when overseeing the affairs of the state.The secular government of Pakistan is like yourself ignoring and rejecting those Laws and commandments.

And the government should refrain from combining religion with state.

Carry on rejecting, you will soon come to know.

Religion is between the follower and Allah. People should be free to practice their religion when they deem fit. You can advise people, but you cannot force them to do anything.

More ignorance and rejection and refusal of Quranic verses.

This was the wishes of Quaid e-Azam

Mr. Jinnah in which he condemned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan’s resolution for a free Pathan state, he said:


“The Khan brothers…have raised another poisonous cry that the PCA (Pakistan Constituent Assembly) will disregard the fundamental principles of the Shari’ah and Qur’anic laws. This, again, is absolutely untrue. More than thirteen centuries have gone by ….. we have not only been proud of our great and Holy Book, the Qur’an, but we have adhered to all these fundamentals all these ages, and now this cry has been raised…[that] we cannot be trusted ?

pffffffffffft........so if you hate it so much, why are you there?

Where have I said I hate it ? Your laughing for nothing, have you gone mad ?

well the term 'Sharia' is used too loosely. Too many interpretations of it.

I have responded to this doubt already in response to someone else,but as for you, yoU completely reject the Sharia so why even bother to ask about so called interpretations?

Taleban believe girls should be covered head-to-toe by force and shouldnt be outdoors or in schools. They believe truck-bombs and suicide bombing is a good tactic to enforce 'Sharia'

Lies and more lies

And you have seen that you were able to focus on important things like studies; integration with people who share differing views, differing cultures, differing perspectives and differing ideas from your own.

So you disregard your lord who created you, and you want to concentrate on "important things"?

Incidentally, Islamiat is required study in all Pakistani schools -- public and private. (a good thing)

They obviously didn't do a good job at your school then

refer to the Webster dictionary

So you can't define that which you call to ? How pathetic is that?

Au contraire.

I said people should accept their deen. But people shouldnt have it shoveled down their throats.

Islam is a religion that promotes moderation of everything. Therefore, it's important to maintain a balance of faith/work/family duties/personal duties/love/committment to the nation & to those in need

Where have I suggested we ignore the things you have mentioned,yet another irrelevant moot point

fair enough. So if somebody choses to reject it, that is his own prerogative and none of your business, and none of the State's business.

thank God the Hudood Ordinance was banned.

The punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, and it is the responsibility of the state to enforce it.

I agree. But it applies to Muslims. Pakistan also has non-Muslims who should not be bound by a system that does not apply to them.

Instead, it makes sense to have a system that can apply to all citizens under Pakistan flag.

Religion is a private matter, not public.

The sharia protects the rights of minorities, non Muslims are not forced to accept Islam they are free to choose which religion they follow. As for your notion of a system that applies to all then this is just pie in the sky.

Declare whatever you want. I could damn care less. You don't know me.

I have seen enough of your kufr statements to confidently state what I have, but don't believe me go ask an alim, I told you even one of your own shia clerics will declare you to be a kaafir for the beliefs you hold

Like most Pakistanis, I am moderate in my beliefs. Nobody is disowning anybody.

You are an extreme and fanatical secularist

For every man, his own.

I am proud to be Muslim since birth. I am more or less a practicing Muslim, even though there is always room for further self-improvement.

But I also have 'Aqil' which helps me decide what is good vs. bad

For you is the fire of jahannum if you do not repent from your kufr.

give my regards to Baitullah Mehsud.

Let him know that the people of Parachinar will distribute lamb and sweets when we see his head hanging from a telephone poll.

Don't be so sure that your head will not roll before his.

death to imported Wahhaby culture. Death to the taleban.

Te shia government of Iran, do you call for its death as well?

and anybody who supports them should be shot by 25mm incendiary rounds and thrown in the Indus River.


Traitors.

Any time your feeling brave.

p.s. I suggest you actually LIVE in Pakistan and learn the ground-realities, rather than post on behalf of all Pakistanis while you are living in UK.

I suggest you get your head out f the ground and look around you.

 

[gambit]

The punishment for apostasy in Islam is death, and it is the responsibility of the state to enforce it.

The sharia protects the rights of minorities, non Muslims are not forced to accept Islam they are free to choose which religion they follow.

If there is no compulsion in religions, as muslims often claimed, then it is logical and moral that there should be no compulsion to remain in a religion. A strong religious foundation should not be afraid of members who, for whatever reasons, wishes to become ex-members.

 

[Conscientious objector]

What a sensible and rational man you must be. One misplaced word and you disregard what the persons trying to say.

No really, I couldn't decipher the meaning of your sentence.

I dont blame you this sort of jahiliat is common among the taliban and its suppourters.

You really do make yourself look incompetent when you speak of "jahiliat" and then spell supporters as suppourters
in the same sentence.

What you have failed to understand and perhaps never will that pashtoons are their own masters and i know the language of my ancestors. We will not accept any wahabi or any other influence on our soil be it directly from arabs or arab appeasing slaves like you.

I'm well aware of the fact that Pashtuns never succumb to external pressures for the most part but you are a perfect example of an exception to this rule.

What is muslim to you

.

Someone who submits to the will of Allah.

How do you regard them as Muslim. Raping our women, beheading innocents, kidnapping our youth and the endless suicide attacks on open markets. How are they Islamic i could list a hundred things they have done which is not Islamic like for killing an Islamic scholar and the suicide bombing during friday prayers, this is their most recent acts of barbarism. What about killing their own just recently its here in the 'pakistans war' board. They are muslim by name just like the govt only thing that the govts actions are in no way unislamic and they do not claim to be fighting for Islam yet they are not violating as much as those who claim to fight for Islam.

More pathetic GOP propaganda and you are swallowing it whole.

What a hypocritical statement. You want people to be judged on merit then why is Mangal Bagh who is a busdriver not an Islamic scholar,
a taliban leader imposing laws or religion when he himself does not have the knowledge to do so.

I bet he knows more about Islam than you probably ever will

That is what im saying that it should be based on merit and that should go both ways no favouritism of rich or poor. Pakistan was moving towards alliviating poverty during musharrafs era when there was good economic growth.

Maybe so, but that was up until Mushy decided to sell his soul to america

Now why is there all the economic problems?

Because mush started a civil war

wouldnt have to do with some self-righteous apes destroying the country and its economy. When this cancer is eliminated we can once again move towards more development and better infrastructure.

The "self righteous apes" are your secularist friends, and they are the cancer in the Pakistani society.

Please do post this i would love to see what the people of buner dir and swat think of these God sent warriors.

You yourself posted a video of People expressing their support for the Taliban, or have you forgotten?

Actually ive had my culture drilled into me and common sense to know that what they are doing is in no way Islamic as hard as this may be to digest for you.

All you've had drilled into you is secularism defeatism and a slave mentality which dictates that the west is the provider of all things good.

We need education in our country so we can develop as a nation

Start with yourself and learn to spell first before you talk of education.

I dont believe emulating western way of life is how we should live as ive made it clear that i want my culture to be kept intact just because you want education and better infrastructure doesnt translate into having your women inappropriately dressed you should know that pashtoon are fiercely proud of their culture and are very conservative same cannot be said about the taliban who have raped our women and shot fathers for refusing to marry off their daughters to them.

Bring facts not rubbish propaganda.

You sir believe Islam is backward by suppourting these backward people who do not represent our religion and have raped its beauty, moderation and its values. This is not Islam, Islam respects the rights of women and promotes education and moderation.

Its SUPPORTING not suppourting, there you go Ive educated you my son, now read my posts and learn, don't try to teach *****

 

[Conscientious objector]

If there is no compulsion in religions, as muslims often claimed then it is logical and moral that there should be no compulsion to remain in a religion.

Not really, once you enter into an agreement and you take an oath of allegiance, then you are bound by certain conditions, the breech of which results in a severe penalty

A strong religious foundation should not be afraid of members who, for whatever reasons, wishes to become ex-members.

All nation states do not accept what would be considered treason, the U.S imprisoned many people during the cold war for alleged membership of the communist party.


gambit, tell me are you a Christian?

 

[gambit]

Not really, once you enter into an agreement and you take an oath of allegiance, then you are bound by certain conditions, the breech of which results in a severe penalty



All nation states do not accept what would be considered treason, the U.S imprisoned many people during the cold war for alleged membership of the communist party.

And the US was wrong for that. We do not imprison communists now, do we? An oath of allegiance is a two-way street. The member pledged to live and act according to a prescribed set of rules, the organization pledged to protect the member. If the member wishes to leave, unless the member has clear plans to do something that would lead to negative consequences of that organization, the only thing that organization should do is to withdraw moral support for that member. Many people renounce their US citizenships. The US government does not hunt them down and kill them. Treason is a different issue, unless Islam consider apostasy the equivalent of treason, in that case, we can argue that Islam, as practiced, is institutionally weaker than Christianity as the Vatican or the Church of England or the Quakers or the Unitarian Universalist Church do not hunt apostates down and kill them.

gambit, tell me are you a Christian?

Irrelevant.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Irrelevant.

Please answer.

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

No really, I couldn't decipher the meaning of your sentence.




You really do make yourself look incompetent when you speak of "jahiliat" and then spell supporters as suppourters
in the same sentence.




I'm well aware of the fact that Pashtuns never succumb to external pressures for the most part but you are a perfect example of an exception to this rule.


.

Someone who submits to the will of Allah.





More pathetic GOP propaganda and you are swallowing it whole.



I bet he knows more about Islam than you probably ever will


Maybe so, but that was up until Mushy decided to sell his soul to america



Because mush started a civil war



The "self righteous apes" are your secularist friends, and they are the cancer in the Pakistani society.



You yourself posted a video of People expressing their support for the Taliban, or have you forgotten?




All you've had drilled into you is secularism defeatism and a slave mentality which dictates that the west is the provider of all things good.



Start with yourself and learn to spell first before you talk of education.



Bring facts not rubbish propaganda.





Its SUPPORTING not suppourting, there you go Ive educated you my son, now read my posts and learn, don't try to teach *****

You really do make yourself look incompetent when you speak of "jahiliat" and then spell supporters as suppourters
in the same sentence.

Once again unless your mentally challenged, this time i hope you can understand what the sentence still means if you cant then i am truly worried about you. So im sure you can understand what the sentence means and reply accordingly instead of looking for spelling mistakes you should really try to answer the points im raising not look for spelling mistakes this isnt a macbeth english essay its a defence forum. If you wanna keep doing it then be my guest and keep correcting it just makes it obvious that you cannot answer the points and cannot digest the talibans barbarism.

I'm well aware of the fact that Pashtuns never succumb to external pressures for the most part but you are a perfect example of an exception to this rule.

First of all your not even a pashtoon. I say this because no pakhtoon in his right mind would support the taliban after what they have done to the pashtuns. You would not at all support the taliban if you had relatives in danger or were in any way affected. Your what we call an arab appeasing begharata and we dont want you people near our soil. Its clear on this forum how the majority of pashtoons feel and who they are supporting. This cancer will be finished and this unIslamic arabic influence will be eradicated from our lands.

Someone who submits to the will of Allah.

really and the taliban are doing that by raping a young women and cutting her breasts off? or by then beheading and burning their bodies.

More pathetic GOP propaganda and you are swallowing it whole.

ok if u cant answer a point dont bother writing back to make a fool of yourself. I could of dismissed all your posts as taliban propangda God forbid thats what everyone thinks.

I bet he knows more about Islam than you probably ever will

And how did you come to that conclusion I didnt know that to be a bus driver in pakistan you had to be an Islamic scholar. It also doesnt matter if hes more religious than me or not because im not the one imposing my will on them through the barrel of a gun.

Maybe so, but that was up until Mushy decided to sell his soul to america

Yes or 165 million pakistanis would have lost thier lives. I hate the man for his other decisions but i can never hold this decision against him

The "self righteous apes" are your secularist friends, and they are the cancer in the Pakistani society.

Really how much people died as a result of secular beliefs in pakistan. Now look at how many died because of self-righteous apes imposing their will on people and claiming it as Sharia. This cancer will be removed and the fact that the majority of pakistanis support the operations shows that they belief it is a cancer in our society. We as pashtoons dont believe in extremism we are secular people who want to live in peace and prosperity something we cannot do under taliban rule.

You yourself posted a video of People expressing their support for the Taliban, or have you forgotten?

Did you even read what i wrote. I have friends here who said that when the taliban first came in they said nothing to anyone they listened to peoples complains and isolated the police, once a vacumn was created they did as they pleased which is why the horrors are now being reported. They claimed they wanted sharia but their acts or barbarism and not laying down arms made it clear where their interests were.

All you've had drilled into you is secularism defeatism and a slave mentality which dictates that the west is the provider of all things good.

No brother you are the one with the slave mentality and its clearly obvious that your just an arab appeasing confused individual. I am worried only about my own country and people. Education isnt a western value neither is striving for development and better infrastructure. Wanting to help your country progress doesnt mean you are a slave of the west maybe for people who are backward and believe that to be good muslim means you must live like a caveman.

Start with yourself and learn to spell first before you talk of education.

If you cannot answer the points or cant read a sentence if one letter is misplaced then im truly sorry i even bothered with you. I am promoting education instead of backwardness, spelling mistakes are something that have nothing to do with it unless ofcourse your holding on to it because of a lack of a valid point.

Bring facts not rubbish propaganda

Same could be said for you, disprove my propaganda with facts not by whining.

not suppourting, there you go Ive educated you my son, now read my posts and learn, don't try to teach *****

And im supposed to be the one whos a western slave. I would be worried if you are indeed old enough to be my father .Enjoy ignoring the facts and instead acting as my english teacher.

 

[gambit]

gambit, tell me are you a Christian?

Irrelevant.

Please answer.

Fine...I am not a Christian. I am a senior acolyte of The Consolidated Temple of Eros, Aphrodite and Venus. Am also head attendant to the Chamber of the Vestal Virgins of the same. We do not punish apostates, although we have yet to have anyone willing to leave our sect.

 

[Fracker]

I don't think medical companies will be willing to go into Afghanistan without proper security. Also the Taliban have targeted doctors, etc... in the past, especially those linked with vaccines, such as polio vaccines. I'm not sure medical companies would be willing to go into Afghanistan without NATO troops on the ground.

Where exactly, they done any harm to medical team? they only stopped them for polio vaccination, because they thought they are spys. Of-course, how can you let them in, while war is going on. And American spies are searching for you, to kill you, will you let them in? Never!!

 

[Fracker]

If there is no compulsion in religions, as muslims often claimed, then it is logical and moral that there should be no compulsion to remain in a religion. A strong religious foundation should not be afraid of members who, for whatever reasons, wishes to become ex-members.

Tell me one thing, what Pak army will do, if armies one of the officer start spying on you to help india?

 

[Fracker]

Can't answer each and every line but just putting things in line with previous going discussion, other things might start new discussions. Quoting!!

Should minority groups in Pakistan be subject to such laws when they are not Muslims?

&

I view all humans (especially my fellow citizens) as equals; regardless of faith.

Aint both of your line are conflicting each other? But yes, minorities also have to follow same law, just with some difference like, marriages, decency, oath and some others, could be made as per there own religion since Quran send these laws only for muslims, other may also can follow, but there is no compulsion for that. But some laws like punishment, Constitution, etc should be followed as Islamic shariah, since those are actually social laws, and representing whole islamic nation, and being part of islamic nation they should also respect. also, there religions don't have any such laws as per Islam, then why will they even bother? just don't do illegal things.

the peace came, and the drugs-business stopped. They did magnificent job.

But somewhere down the line, something went wrong. They began embracing jahhalat when they started doing public beheadings, intimidations, and other barbaric activities which remind me a lot about what I was seeing in Swat somewhat recently --before the Army came in to clean up the place.

again you are combining TTP and Taliban. What should i answer, but yes these barbaric, and jahhalat is actually Islamic punishment, yes i agree in public showing should be avoided, but saying removing hard punishments will be taking criminal's side.

---but my biggest enemy is ignorance and people who impose their views on me

it isnt the americans doing that......it is TTP

Ignorance? what actually ignorance is? If i don't know anything about some topic then i might be the part of that ignorance. & who actually don't impose his views on others? Just go to newscientist, you will find scientist imposing their views on others, similarly each fields!! what if some Islamic Mullah start doing same? he is also a human. Yes, you can correct him with the arguments, and i spend my whole life in mardan, i know if you come with proper argument w.r.t Islam, like you have hadith/Quranic versus to back you. Then they can't argue, and they then have to accept what you are saying.

During World War II -- did Allied Forces remain in the battle fields (such as France or even Egypt) or did they return to their homes countries.

The problem is, nobody wanted these non-Afghan mujahideen. Algerians, Saudis, Uzbeks, Kuwaitis, etc. --- their home countries didn't want them back!!!

At least we should have taught them something after the war was over. The only thing they knew how to do is fight aggresively. But they couldnt do a multiplication problem or know how to do anything productive in life

you have answer yourself They can't go back, and Mullah Omar thats why didn't force them to go back. & yes we should have taught them something, we taught them fight, and they succeeded, then why after fighting finished, we didn't send the convey of islamic scholars who could properly train them.

who said there was no security risk?

ohh come on, pakistan was the only country who recognized them, pakistan offered help them to develop. central asia gas pipeline plan also came in same time. Pak top intelligence were freely moving throughout the country. & also them start helping kashmiri for their rights. & just face the facts, they were not any security threat to pakistan or anywhere closer.

Hamid Karzai is a weak man and a bit of a twit. I wont mind him being President as long as he recognizes the Durand Line (which he refuses to do) and also he stops allowing indian consullates to be used as terrorism against NWFP and Baluchistan.

how long we will wait & see, its been around 8 yrs he is on same seat. & doing against Pakistan's will.

i dont like afghanistan or that many afghan people. But I hope they can stabilize their country and help it blossom.

I don't generalize people. They are muslims, and that is sufficient for me to like them, and i will be only point on specific persons who are against us.

Pakistan isnt just Hanafi, there are many communities.

I never said "Just Hanafi". I said Major ratio.

he's a bloody twit, but the good thing is that he has good relations with Zardari

& what exactly zardari is? He belong to same category. I don't expect anything good from zardari, so don't think hamid karzai's relationship with zardari going to help us anywhere.

put pressure of Afghanistan to do more to stop the opium-production and to also stop allowing anti-Pakistani elements to function in Afghanistan

come on, face the truth!! throughout his tenor opium crops is increasing, and in 2007, they achieve 1st position, and every yr, its going up by 7%. Similarly, Hamid karzai allowed india in afghanistan, and still given them free hand. Like Taliban given to ISI, in past.

 

[waraich66]

we can argue that Islam, as practiced, is institutionally weaker than Christianity as the Vatican or the Church of England or the Quakers or the Unitarian Universalist Church do not hunt apostates down and kill them.

You claim is not right , see below post , both religion discourage apostasy .


In Christianity
Main article: Apostasy in Christianity
See also: Apostata capiendo and Backslide
In addition to the Jewish tradition inherited through the Old Testament, Christian governments, sometimes with the approval of the Church, have punished both apostates and heretics individually and in campaigns such as the Inquisition and the Albigensian Crusade. The Byzantine Emperor Justinian I instituted the punishment of death for apostasy in the very first law of the Corpus Juris Civilis (Body of Civil Law), his code that formed a basis for several European countries' laws for many centuries.

Catharism was a name given to a radical and anarchistic quasi-Christian religious sect with dualistic and gnostic elements that appeared in the Languedoc region of France in the 11th century and flourished in the 12th and 13th centuries. The Catholic Church regarded the sect as dangerously heretical and in 1208 AD, the Pope urged the local Christian governments to a crusade known as the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars. Being that the Cathars were also anarchists, they were also enemies of the state. In the ensuing 20-year military campaign, thousands of apostates were executed including 7000 residents of a town called Beziers, who were locked and burnt in one of their meetinghouses. According to historians, a horrified onlooker rushed to the papal gates and reminded the crusaders that some Catholic Christians were still trapped in the meetinghouse together with the Cathars. The officer overseeing the massacre then made the well-known remark: “Kill them all. God will know his own”[9]

 

[gambit]

You claim is not right , see below post , both religion discourage apostasy .

Of coures all religions discourages apostacy. Show me one that does not. But we are not talking about what happened a few hundred years ago when the line between religion and politics are either nonexistent or ignored. Today, Christiany is politically defanged. None of the Christian sects persecute apostates. Christianity today is quite the buffet for the people. Pointing out what happened in Christianity's (bloody) past does not justify today Islam's issues with apostasy. The bottom line is that if an organized religion must kill in order to keep its adherents in line, it is not a very strong institution.