How Islamicised is the Pakistan army?

[Conscientious objector]

.

Read the second one, which specifically states that the Taliban executed some of the Christians. Judging by your flags, I assume you live in the UK right now, therefore you probably know a lot of Christians and may have some Christian friends. How would you feel if they were faced with either conversion or execution? Would you leave them to their fate or help them? This is a very personal question, but I request an answer.

Also, the fact that the Taliban have attacked various Sufi Shrines in the past shows that they want they're form of Islam, not others and may not accept another form of Shariah.

O.K read the second one,

This incident might have occurred that much I agree to, what I contest is the allegation that the Taliban were behind it.

This might have been any number of criminal organisations operating within Karachi, the Taliban have many enemies, its highly likely that M.Q.M thugs orchestrated it.They have the motive of maligning their enemy the Taliban as well as a good opportunity to make some money by robbing the Christians as well as getting some perverse sexual gratification.

According to Asif Stephen, a Christian politician, one of the protesters said, "We were protesting peacefully and all of sudden, a few militants carrying the latest weapons rushed in. Some of the attackers entered homes and pillaged money and jewelry and abused the women and burned their properties. The elderly were injured and one child fell to the ground and died in my friend's arms."

ICC also reports the terrorists sexually assaulted several women and physically abused dozens more with clubs, iron rods, and whips.

I'm well aware of the hatred most people on this forum have for the Taliban, but if one were to be just, one would have no choice but to concede that the above quoted actions are those that the Taliban are not known for in the least.

According to AsiaNews, police have arrested seven of the Taliban militants involved in the attack. However, they are unsure who was behind the incident.

I'm also unsure as to what to make of this as it states that police have arrested some of the Taliban involved, yet they are unsure of who was behind the attack?????

Such actions have no basis in the sharia whatsoever, I cant even think of texts that might be misinterpreted that might lead someone to justify such an incident.


This was clearly the work of a third party and they didn't make a good job of impersonating the Taliban.

 

[Vassnti]

O.K read the second one,

This was clearly the work of a third party and they didn't make a good job of impersonating the Taliban.

All that is missing is that they were a jewish indian paid by the CIA to frame your beloved Taliban.

You say the taliban do not molest women?

Islamabad On the heels of their crusade against girls going to schools, the Taliban have now issued new dictum in the areas under their sway asking parents of the grown up daughters to marry them to militants or ‘face dire consequences’.

Taliban new dictum: Marry daughters to militants - Express India

Afghani's used to send their daughters to pakistan to be safe where now to india?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In another thread were we discussed how the Zardari administration removed pictures of Muhammad Ali Jinnah in the Presidential Palace, I made a post but from what I read from your post (one above) I should be banned...



Please visit the link to understand the context of the thread I posted that in as well.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...der-removed-president-house-2.html#post410651


Are you also saying we cannot question Zardari's legitimacy to rule, in spite of the criminal allegations against him, corruption charges, and incompetency?

Advocating Zardari's removal by Coup d'état, and replacing him with a more legitimate and befitting leader is violating the forum rules? If so technically I should be banned.

Though obviously I am not against the Pakistani state, but as many Pakistanis I feel the country must be taken back, and put it place of better hands and minds for a better future.

Technically you would be in violation of forum rules, but we will not be banning people for that particular offense since the State of Pakistan is not locked in an existential struggle with the Pakistani military at this point, as it is with the Taliban.

But I would strongly encourage you, and others who advocate military intervention, to rethink this argument of unconstitutional regime change, because there really is little difference between your argument and that of the terrorists.

All this talk of 'intervention to fix the system and return to a 'true democracy' is nothing but wishful thinking. The kind of bloodshed required to achieve such a feat would rip apart Pakistan. At best you would have what Musharraf did, and at the end the same old faces would return, and the entire process of allowing 'democracy to mature and evolve' would start anew with people like you moaning about 'military intervention to save the country', and people like Yarmouk moaning about 'shariah saving the country'.

We have had dozens of suicide bombings killing thousands of people, just yesterday 22+ soldiers were martyred in an ambush in North Waziristan - the danger from that particular threat is more 'clear and present' than the threat from those who advocate military intervention at this moment.

I will admit that our position is imperfect, but this being a defence forum, and our country being one in transition, some leeway will be extended for some time to those still arguing for military intervention.

But again, remember that your argument is in essence identical to that of the extremists wanting to impose 'Shariah' through force and violence.

There is no substitute for the rule of law and the supremacy of the constitution.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Taliban new dictum: Marry daughters to militants - Express India

I put my hands up, its been reported at expressindia.com, it must be true I cant believe it I was wrong all along.

Thanx for posting the link to expressindia I will rely on it for all my news from now on



ps
Ill tell all my friends to tune in to expressindia as well

 

[Fracker]

Right,In addition to your above information,i would like to say the life of muslim has two phases whether he is practically doing jehad or in preparation of jehad.

yarrr.... please do read something about Jihaad please.. its a request.. When jihaad is declare and you have order from state's leader, then you can't say i am warping my shoes

but only Islamic state can decide based on fatwa of Mufti when and where it is valid , me and you cant decide it.

Again, i will request please do read about jihaad, there are many books available. There is no requirement of Mufti, only islamic state's leader can declare jihaad. Like they did in 1980s.

Dont act like ignorant , every one know what Sufi did after peace agreement in bunar.

Again, my previous reply is enough, to answer.

If Al Qeada dont exist from where TTP getting million of dollars for WAR?

our beloved friend United State of America, if you get time then ask those who went there for the fight. What types of armors they are using against Pak Army? how they manage to pay 50k$ for single suicide bomb.

Dont try to be over smart , better draw battery limits between good and evil.Both of them can not be right.

where exactly I said both are right. Are you actually reading what I am writing? I said "This doesn't means TTP are right", which means they are not right get it? Responsible doesn't always mean you are wrong!! Like when Mangla Dam was constructing then they let all mirpur khas' people out of that land. So people suffered because of Mangla Dam, and Pak government was responsible for it. BUT it was a need.

Please analyse the whole satuation in Pakistan with cool mind

I did but u didn't read that analysis at all. This is my 1st post in this forum. http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/28710-how-islamicised-pakistan-army-12.html#post411441

Lastly i think you are mistaken, I never supported TTP, infact i said TTP are been supported by USA, and now i will add (to clearify my stance), Baitullah Masoud and fazullullah should be hanged in front of whole pakistan, so no body go against the state of Islamic republic again.

 

[Fracker]

I think what the moderators are trying to say is that advocating & protecting the Taliban is not allowed, along with the fact that the Zardari issue is off topic and should be the subject of a new thread.

Replace TTP with Taliban, then no one in this forum will have any problem. Because both are two separate bodies, supported by two different types of people. & both's objectives are different.

 

[waraich66]

yarrr.... please do read something about Jihaad please.. its a request.. When jihaad is declare and you have order from state's leader, then you can't say i am warping my shoes

I have given general statement , you could not understand it.

Again, i will request please do read about jihaad, there are many books available. There is no requirement of Mufti, only islamic state's leader can declare jihaad. Like they did in 1980s.

No requirement of Mufti ? are you joking ? Only Mufti can give fatwa and whithout fatwa the kital or war is haram.

Better read and understand difference between arabic word jehad and herb or kital.

Again, my previous reply is enough, to answer.



our beloved friend United State of America, if you get time then ask those who went there for the fight. What types of armors they are using against Pak Army? how they manage to pay 50k$ for single suicide bomb.

US is not funding them , dont blame any one with out any solid proof.

where exactly I said both are right. Are you actually reading what I am writing? I said "This doesn't means TTP are right", which means they are not right get it? Responsible doesn't always mean you are wrong!! Like when Mangla Dam was constructing then they let all mirpur khas' people out of that land. So people suffered because of Mangla Dam, and Pak government was responsible for it. BUT it was a need.

People of mirpur benefited from Mangla Dam , not suffered under agreement with UN and World Bank .Please dont spread misconception.

I did but u didn't read that analysis at all. This is my 1st post in this forum. http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/28710-how-islamicised-pakistan-army-12.html#post411441

Lastly i think you are mistaken, I never supported TTP, infact i said TTP are been supported by USA, and now i will add (to clearify my stance), Baitullah Masoud and fazullullah should be hanged in front of whole pakistan, so no body go against the state of Islamic republic again.

Baitullah and Fazullah are paid war lord (terrorists) but not by USA by India and Israel..

 

[Fracker]

I have given general statement , you could not understand it.

Ok bhai i don't understand but you do.

No requirement of Mufti ? are you joking ? Only Mufti can give fatwa and whithout fatwa the kital or war is haram.

I already mention do read about Islamic definition of jihaad. Einstein said: "I never won an arguments with an ignorant"

Better read and understand difference between arabic word jehad and herb or kital.

ok bhai

US is not funding them , dont blame any one with out any solid proof.

What proof you need dear? Qari as witness, who then killed when he opened his mouth? The weapons TTP is using against Pak army are not russian but American? No drone attacked happen on baitullah masoud till two witness come in front start pointing it? Baitullah masoud fight against army but when Mullah umar calls him for the fight against USA he don't leave. What more evidence you need. I still remember a line by ISI officer whose unit was fighting in swat. "USA is playing double game".

I don't want you to get agree since the denier will never accept. I do accept Indian and israeli involvement in pakistan, but india is supporting BLA, and yes there are some evidence of training of Afghans in Afghanistan. but main problem is USA, who is backing whole game, india and israel are just proxies.

People of mirpur benefited from Mangla Dam , not suffered under agreement with UN and World Bank .Please dont spread misconception.

Ask someone who really belong to mir pur, also answer me, if the government tell you to leave the whole city and your home you will not suffer? if you are comparing not suffering with being paid for the land, then swati people are also paid for that, then how come they suffered? But again you are not focusing on the point i raised but just extending the arguments.

 

[niaz]

I think the thread is a misnomer. Any army of a Muslim country will be “Islamicized”. Jihad fi sabil Allah is the motto of Pakistan army.

IMO Islamicized and Talibanized are two completely different things. The answer to the question how talibanised is Pak military? The answer must be “quite a lot’. Pakistan supported Afghan jihadis for 9 years and was the first country to recognize Taliban government of Afghanistan.

Since the time of bigot Zia, there has been promotion of extremist /jihadi lovers over officers considered too western. Thus we have had bigoted Generals such as Hamid Gul (There are press reports that Baitullah Mahsood has even written a letter to him asking for help) and also reports of 57 PAF staff that actually conspired to kill president Musharraf!

Besides, military forces are part of the society and since there is significant support for Taliban/ Islamic terrorists among politicians (JI and Imran Khan’s TI including some of PML-N such as Kh. Saad Rafiq); in the print as well as electronic media; such support cannot be absent from the security forces personnel.

 

[zubair723]

The second & third SURAH of QURAN clearly lays down the 'pre-requisites' of fighting or JIHAD. There is no room for theology based on HEAD of STATE.
Also hearing this non-sense again & again that Religion is something personal & between GOD & INDIVIDUAL. Maybe other religions ,not ISLAM. When QURAN prescribes so many laws from inheritance to business dealings then ISLAM is about SOCIETY as whole, not individual 'whims'.

 

[waraich66]

What proof you need dear? Qari as witness, who then killed when he opened his mouth? The weapons TTP is using against Pak army are not russian but American? No drone attacked happen on baitullah masoud till two witness come in front start pointing it? Baitullah masoud fight against army but when Mullah umar calls him for the fight against USA he don't leave. What more evidence you need. I still remember a line by ISI officer whose unit was fighting in swat. "USA is playing double game".

I don't want you to get agree since the denier will never accept. I do accept Indian and israeli involvement in pakistan, but india is supporting BLA, and yes there are some evidence of training of Afghans in Afghanistan. but main problem is USA, who is backing whole game, india and israel are just proxies.

Logically your wrong.

Why should US play double game , already beared to much loses and in 2011 NATO agreement is also ending.

Actually India is playing double game with USA and PA had many times endosed it.

Ask someone who really belong to mir pur, also answer me, if the government tell you to leave the whole city and your home you will not suffer? if you are comparing not suffering with being paid for the land, then swati people are also paid for that, then how come they suffered? But again you are not focusing on the point i raised but just extending the arguments.

If you have any evidence of suffering of mir pur residents due mangla dam ,open a new thread in Geo political section.

 

[waraich66]

The second & third SURAH of QURAN clearly lays down the 'pre-requisites' of fighting or JIHAD. There is no room for theology based on HEAD of STATE.
Also hearing this non-sense again & again that Religion is something personal & between GOD & INDIVIDUAL. Maybe other religions ,not ISLAM. When QURAN prescribes so many laws from inheritance to business dealings then ISLAM is about SOCIETY as whole, not individual 'whims'.

War or herb is not act of indivduals similar to Haj , please try to understand.

Well Said ALLAMA IQBAL :

Maoug hai darya me berune darya kuch nahi
Fard hai millat se tanha kuch nahi.

 

[zubair723]

War or herb is not act of indivduals similar to Haj , please try to understand.

Well Said ALLAMA IQBAL :

Maoug hai darya me berune darya kuch nahi
Fard hai millat se tanha kuch nahi.

Well how about applying this verse of IQBAL on ZARDARIS & MUSH & company. What has this lot of 'FARD' done for the 'MILLAT'.
I know one thing approving surgical strikes on MURIDKE to please guess who.
Actually this lot of FARD-e-POWER MIR JAFFARS have themselves denied justice & contributed to so many injustices that they are not acceptable as HEAD of STATES.. IQBAL's vision of HEAD of STATE is supposed to be a man of self, just bowing to GOD ,no one else.

 

[Fracker]

Logically your wrong.

As i said, denier will never accept. I have proven already with the logics, witness, but yet you deny. Khair its up to you!!

If you have any evidence of suffering of mir pur residents due mangla dam ,open a new thread in Geo political section.

Not needed, i already mention that this point was just to show, responsible suffering not always means wrong. Some times there is a necessity to do it.

 

[Fracker]

The second & third SURAH of QURAN clearly lays down the 'pre-requisites' of fighting or JIHAD. There is no room for theology based on HEAD of STATE.

2nd & 3rd Surah are pretty lengthy one, it will be good if you actually post the versus number for ease.