How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

[toxic_pus]

The Indian support is always behind you because...

Really, I look that cute?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

My question is.....

Thanks to Growler....everyone now knows what makes the Dhruv ALH what it is.....

But what I fail to understand is, that if the one knows each and every (crucial) component that makes a utility chopper.....and on top of that knows where to get it......Why not make one yourself?

Pakistan should have its own chopper flying anytime since this thread makes it seem like nothing more than assembling a lego blocks...LOL!!

So what's missing......I suppose what's missing is the "indegenous" element we speak of......

But hats off to Growler.....He actually took a lot of time and effort browsing the net to comeup with all this research and in the process saved some knucklechildren....

I dont usually reply to posts which involves pakistan into a discussion that is not even related to it. But just want to clear some misunderstanding.

In simple words. Pakistan does not have enough budget to run multiple projects in scale of India's. JF-17 and AK are one of the few projects which involves the same concept as Dhruv. You take a platform from one sources and integrate it with foreigner technologies which should be produced at home. India also has a lot of influence in western market and if Pak decides to run a same project parallel to Dhruv their are going to be too much factors which wont get Pak anywhere.
Western market dont want to lose a bigger buyer India which is looking forward to multiple projects cooperation with europe. JF-17 French package is in hot water what looks to be Indian intervention and I dont know what french intentions are. They want Pak to buy alot more of French weapons in one package such as 3 Merlins, JF-17, FC-20 and perhaps frigates. What worries Pak is French may rip us off like what they are doing to India with MK2 deal.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Thank you for yet again providing some positive input in this thread.
With all due respect, Dhruv, engine, rotors, etc are mostly foreigner technology. Indian technical contribution in Sakti engine is 10%.

Don't know (really) about the 10%, but the rest of your point seems correct.

However, and this goes back to my earlier post, what has been done on the Dhruv is beyond simple 'assembly', but a significant leap in capability via conceptualization, IMO. Which leads me to the next part which is:

IMO Indian contribution is in mostly stage 2 and barely in stage 3.

I don't know about that. We could disagree here. Edit - in the absence of 'real information', you have as much chance of being right as me.

India enjoys luxury of foreigner input in its projects. India is simply too much dependent on non-indian technologies and the huge amount of financial support it has, multi national companies are willing to provide designs and technologies which are not just off the shelf.

That's true. We now have the money so we're getting more goodies. But that's life. It's also somewhat worrying because there is a danger of getting snowed under western BS; all they want is $$s. Like your French example.

In the long term, IMO while we have advanced significantly in overall design, I think the challenge for is to indigenize manufacture of key components - the engine/ radar for aircraft; the engine/ rotor (?) for copters etc.

 

[manojb]

"HAL is discussing a single-pilot version with instrument flight rules capability of the advance light helicopter Dhruv that could be a candidate for joint certification(FAA-DGCA)." This will give huge boost to Dhruv marketing!!

Source: aerospace diary: FAA/India Pursue Aviation Product Certification Accord

 

[Peshwa]

I dont usually reply to posts which involves pakistan into a discussion that is not even related to it. But just want to clear some misunderstanding.

In simple words. Pakistan does not have enough budget to run multiple projects in scale of India's. JF-17 and AK are one of the few projects which involves the same concept as Dhruv. You take a platform from one sources and integrate it with foreigner technologies which should be produced at home. India also has a lot of influence in western market and if Pak decides to run a same project parallel to Dhruv their are going to be too much factors which wont get Pak anywhere.
Western market dont want to lose a bigger buyer India which is looking forward to multiple projects cooperation with europe. JF-17 French package is in hot water what looks to be Indian intervention and I dont know what french intentions are. They want Pak to buy alot more of French weapons in one package such as 3 Merlins, JF-17, FC-20 and perhaps frigates. What worries Pak is French may rip us off like what they are doing to India with MK2 deal.

Growler....Fair enough....I suppose bringing Pakistan into the discussion was unnecessary....I suppose what I was alluding to was that if the know-how and the exact components are known, why are there only limited number of countries that are in the business of making utility choppers.....

Nevertheless, since you brough up JF-17 and AK, lets use those as examples.....
As per your claim, similar to the above 2, the Dhruv has foreign components as well..... both of the above are joint collaborations between Pak and China......However in the case of Dhruv, everything from R&D, prodution, testing, weapons, the works has been done in India......Its not as simple as just assembling the parts and one is ready to fly......


However, in the JF and AK, the word "indegenous" is used very generously....Dont you think the Dhruv deserves to be more "indegenous" than either of the above since it was completely Indian engineering that made the project a success that it is?

Take J-10 for example, uses a Russian engine and is clearly a followup to the LAVI program, yet it is considered an "indegenous" Chinese plane.......and Pakistanis and Chinese back it up quite vociferously....
Same standard should be applied to the Dhruv....thats all....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I suppose what I was alluding to was that if the know-how and the exact components are known, why are there only limited number of countries that are in the business of making utility choppers.....

Every military has it own demand and India is one of the largest military and requires a big fleet. some times it better for medium size military like pakistan to opt for limited number of choppers like 30-40 straight from the market because its cheaper then to produce it at home. If pak has a requirement for 150-200 choppers then they may consider such a project.

Nevertheless, since you brough up JF-17 and AK, lets use those as examples.....
As per your claim, similar to the above 2, the Dhruv has foreign components as well..... both of the above are joint collaborations between Pak and China......However in the case of Dhruv, everything from R&D, prodution, testing, weapons, the works has been done in India......Its not as simple as just assembling the parts and one is ready to fly......

unfortunately thats the myth indians are taught. I wont bother repeating again for you but this thread here is for you to read and enlighten yourself. in short words. Dhruv is a multi national product produced in India.

However, in the JF and AK, the word "indegenous" is used very generously....Dont you think the Dhruv deserves to be more "indegenous" than either of the above since it was completely Indian engineering that made the project a success that it is?

completely wrong. thats why i never wanted to drag something else in as it will change the course of the thread. And like i said in very very simple words. provide technical details of indian contribution other then articles that mentions the word "indigenous" in it. Is the engine indian? no. is the hydraulics indian? no. is the mission computer indian? no. is the design entirely indian? no.

Take J-10 for example, uses a Russian engine and is clearly a followup to the LAVI program, yet it is considered an "indegenous" Chinese plane.......and Pakistanis and Chinese back it up quite vociferously....
Same standard should be applied to the Dhruv....thats all....

Lavi and J-10 dimensions are way different how ever china may have gained technical know how from Isreal but never took any direct assistance from Isreal in J-10 project. other then some design similarities LCA uses more Lavi technologies then J-10.

back to dhruv topic no more ridiculous analogies.

 

[manojb]

back to dhruv topic no more ridiculous analogies.

How much % does DESIGN,FABRICATION(component, assembly), TESTING,CERTIFICATION constitute in flying aircraft?

 

[lamdafriend]

ladies and gentlemen,
for a product to be labelled 'indigenous',it is not neccessary that every component of it must be designed and made in home.
For example,
1.HAL marut
First supersonic fighter jet to be made in home by an asian country.
the design was done by Kurt Tank.a famous designer who is german. But it is considered to be indigenous(made in india) because of it was the indians who spend the money,did the production and first of all the initiative.
2.JF-17
The joint-fighter 17 can be called as indigenous as they(pk+china) have done significant changes to an abandoned russian project,spending time,money and effort.

so the conclusion is that alh dhruv can be considered as a "made in india "product.

bonus for india haters:
india has formula 1 racing team called "Force india "owned by vijay mallya.the thing is that force india does not even have single indian car driver.
bonuis for pak haters:
pak has been in first 15 ranks of worlds most worse nations since its independence,where as india rank in 60~75 positions

 

[F-16_Falcon]

ladies and gentlemen,
for a product to be labelled 'indigenous',it is not neccessary that every component of it must be designed and made in home.
For example,
1.HAL marut
First supersonic fighter jet to be made in home by an asian country.
the design was done by Kurt Tank.a famous designer who is german. But it is considered to be indigenous(made in india) because of it was the indians who spend the money,did the production and first of all the initiative.
2.JF-17
The joint-fighter 17 can be called as indigenous as they(pk+china) have done significant changes to an abandoned russian project,spending time,money and effort.

so the conclusion is that alh dhruv can be considered as a "made in india "product.

bonus for india haters:
india has formula 1 racing team called "Force india "owned by vijay mallya.the thing is that force india does not even have single indian car driver.
bonuis for pak haters:
pak has been in first 15 ranks of worlds most worse nations since its independence,where as india rank in 60~75 positions

BS propaganda. JF-17 is jointly developed by Pakistan and China. Our advance technologies are incorporated in JF-17 via PAC Kamra.

 

[STAR SCREAM]

BS propaganda. JF-17 is jointly developed by Pakistan and China. Our advance technologies are incorporated in JF-17 via PAC Kamra.

NOPE!!! just a PARTNER JUST LIKE US IN MKI....AM NOT SAYING THIS BUT THIS IS ALL OVER GOOGLE

 

[John Doe]

NOPE!!! just a PARTNER JUST LIKE US IN MKI....AM NOT SAYING THIS BUT THIS IS ALL OVER GOOGLE

Just for my knowledge, exactly what part of the JF 17 is made or designed by Pakistan? I have never got a clear answer. With a MKI it is well known what is made by India.
Does anyone know?

 

[MickyMouse]

Just for my knowledge, exactly what part of the JF 17 is made or designed by Pakistan? I have never got a clear answer. With a MKI it is well known what is made by India.
Does anyone know?

None of it was designed in Pakistan.
The FC-1 was designed by China between 91 and 98, which was modified as per request by PAF.
The input for redesign came from MIG
The current JF-17s with PAF are 'lite' versions
They will be upgraded by French or British/Italian avionics, status of this deal may depend upon who wins MRCA competition.
The aircraft is powered by MIG-29s RD-33 engine, it is unknown how many engines Russia will supply to them because
(a) Indian pressure
(b) JF-17 is a competitor to MIG-29

but no need to take my word for it, its all here

JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also 250 JF-17s my 2025 is really not a number which IAF should worry about too much.

 

[PoKeMon]

I haven't read the article but yet can say that ALH is no more than 30% indigenous. A country which can't fabric a single micro controller on his own should not boast off things not in her capabilities. Its bitter but its true

 

[MKI]

Well they are indigenous because HAL (indian company) has the rights to build and sell them. No other country or aviation company has ever objected the concept of dhruv being indian, like sukhoi's objections for j10.
All the countries and companies are cool about dhruv. But here we have confused souls trying to prove some thing else.

 

[Hulk]

That's a good point and simple logic, ownership of brand matters.