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How "Indigenous" is Dhruv/ALH?

What in the aircraft is indigenous, i.e. made in India, and what is the 'degree of difficulty' of that Indian contribution? Was it design? Or the frame?

COMPLETE HISTORY OF DHRUV AND ITS DEVELOPMENT

The indigenously developed Dhruv is a multi-role new generation helicopter in the 5.5-ton weight class. Dhruv has multiple meanings and origins. "Dhruv" is a Sanskrit word that means "non-movable" or "immobile", or Firm or Constant. However, this word is most commonly used to refer "pole star". The Hindu version of Dhruv means Dhruv was a Prince and blessed by God, that the pole star will be named Dhruv and the whole universe would revolve around the star and be stationary and shine the brightest. When Dhruv prayed Lord Vishnu, Lord Vishnu gave him blessing and told him - "I will make a place for you in the sky from where nobody can remove you". And then he made Dhruv the 'pole star'.

HAL Dhruv is said to share many design features that are derivative of the Kawasaki BK-117 and EC-145, which is a variant of the BK-117. HAL started development of a new 12-seat helicopter known as the ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) in July 1984. It was designed with assistance from MBB in Germany. It followed a similar layout to that of the BK-117 although it is a larger aircraft. The Dhruv might look a bit like a BK 117 but it is quite a lot larger and has a 4 bladed not 2 bladed tail rotor.

The Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter has flown extensively in diverse terrains ranging from hot tropical deserts to the great Himalayan ranges. Dhruv has high military capabilities for heliborne assault, logistic support, casualty evacuation, reconnaissance and training. It can also be used as air observation post. It is designed to meet the requirement of both military and civil operations. The civil variant of Dhruv carries forward the ruggedness of the military variant. It can carry six passengers in the executive version and twelve in the passenger version.

The "Dhruv" Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is a unique multirole, state-of- the-art, cost-effective helicopter in the 4-5 ton class. ALH has incorporated hingeless composite main rooter with elastomeric bearings, a bearingless composite tail rotor, integrated dynamic transmission system, full authority digitial engine control and crashworthy composite airframe.

The Advanced Light Helicopter is HAL’s flagship program and it has been accorded high priority in the country in terms of development, production and marketing for the next decade. Indigenously designed and developed to meet the requirements of the Army, Navy, Air Force and the Coast Guard, the ALH can fly at high altitudes, possesses sea-level high lift capability and performs at high speed. It is an armed gunship, a utility transport, an anti-submarine warfare/anti-surface vessel warfare helicopter and a platform for search and rescue and casualty evacuation. The ALHs are powered by two Turbomeca TM 333 turboshaft engines procured from France and these will be produced under licence by HAL.

With its wide body, specious and quite cabin, sliding doors, emergency exits, smooth and vibration free rides which are important for passenger comfort, the ALH fits well into the civil role. Large rear clamshell doors provide easy loading of stretchers or other bulky loads. The helicopter is planned for a wide range of civil roles like VIP travel, Commuter, Search and rescue, Emergency medical service, Underslung load, Disaster relief, Offshore operation etc. It is easy to fly and economical to maintain with all these operational flexibility.

ALH has been designed with close interaction with the military from the beginning. With sonar/sonics, radar, ESM, torpedoes, depth charges and anti Ship Missiles, ALH forms one of the most agile and quick response ASW, ASV platform in the world. With the turret gun, rockets, air-to-air missiles and third generation anti-tank missiles, ALH has the teeth for attack along with significant self defence and protection system.

The hingeless main rotor offers good maneuverability and maintenance-free operation. The advanced blade profiles ensure low noise, highspeed and efficient lift. The advanced cockpit reduces pilot workload. The extensive use of composites ensures longer life and low life cycle cost. High reliability is due to redundancy in critical system. Easy maintenance is due to modular design and BITE facility in major systems. Integrated Dynamic System offers low vulnerability, increased safety and reliability.

The ALH is built to international design standards stipulated by FAR and US MIL. Designed to cater to the diverse needs of Army, Navy and Air Force, as well as Civil sector, ALH has versatility to carry out a variety of roles. It can operate with equal ease over sea, high altitude, sandy deserts and adverse environmental conditions. The ALH entered the advanced stage of certification, having undergone extensive flight tests for demonstrating compliance with variety of requirements. A civil variant ALH prototype is also under development.

HAL concentrated on integration work. With the turret gun, rockets, air-to-air missiles and third generation anti-tank missiles, ALH has the teeth for attack together with self-defence and protection systems. The naval version of the ALH is fitted with sonar/sonics system, surveillance radar, ESM system and tactical mission system and is armed with torpedo/depth charges and anti-ship missiles for anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel missions.

The Dhruv features a 'System Bolkow' four-blade hingeless main rotor with carbon fibre composite blades. The blades have advanced aero foils, swept back tips for reduced nose, and feature a ballistic tolerance against bullet hits of up to 12.7mm calibre. The fibre elastoner rotor head holds the blade between a pair of CFRP star-plates, with manual blade folding and a rotor brake provided as standard equipment. A four blade bearing-less crossbeam tail rotor is fitted on the starboard side of the pylon. Vibration damping is provided by an anti-resonance isolation system compromising four isolator elements between the fuselage and the main gearbox. An integrated drive system transmission comprises of the rotor hub, main transmission, upper controls and main rotor hydraulics. The Dhruv also features a four axis automatic flight control system, with an integrated control & stability augmentation system from France.

The airframe makes extensive use of composites (Glass Fibre, Carbon and Kevlar) and accounts for 29% of overall structural weight and 60% of surface area. The military variants include crashworthy fuel tanks, frangible couplings and infra-red suppressors for the engines. The helicopter design enables the crew to survive vertical impacts of up to 30 feet per second, due to the safety seats and a design of controlled deformation of fuselage crumple zones. The cabin was designed to seat 12 people, however 14 can be accommodated in a high-density configuration. Rearward-sliding passenger doors are featured on either end, with large clamshell doors at the rear of the cabin. The clamshell doors can be removed, in exceptional cases, to carry unusual & unwieldy loads. An underslung load hook is standard on military variants. The air ambulance variant enables the Dhruv to accommodate two to four stretchers, with a couple of attendants.

A communication radio (U/UHF, HF/SSB and standby UHF modes), IFF & intercom, with a Doppler navigation system, TAS system, radio altimeter and ADF are standard in all military variants. A weather radar and the Omega navigation system is optional on the naval variant.

The Dhruv was originally powered by a pair of TM333-2B turbo shafts developing 746 kW (1000 shp) from Turbomeca of France. This was later switched to the LHTEC CTS800-4N turbo shaft (from the then Allied Signal of USA - now Honeywell) developing 970 kW (1300 shp). The more powerful CTS800-54 turbo shaft developing 1235 kW (1656 hp) was offered as an option. However these engines were embargoed by the US, for imposing sanctions on India for her nuclear tests in May 1998. Connections were re-established with Turbomeca and the TM333-2B2 engine was selected, developing 825 kW (1100 shp) at take-off, with growth potential to 900 kW (1200 shp) for subsequent versions and features full authority digital electronic control (FADEC).

AIN Online reported in February 2004 that Turbomeca will supply 318 TM333-2B2 engines to HAL for the series production. The aviation journal also stated that Turbomeca has agreed to increase the offsets associated with this deal by transferring more work to HAL, which will now produce the engine's turbocharger and other accessories, including the fuel systems. HAL will also be securing repair licenses for the engines.

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is going in for a new engine, which will improve its performance in high altitude. Christened Shakti, it will be between 12 and 15 per cent more powerful than the existing TM-333 engine and increase its payload capability by around 300 kg. The new engine has been developed in collaboration with France, where it has undergone tests.

The 21st production aircraft delivered to the Army, will be the first with a glass cockpit and weapons systems integrated. The Army's WSI helicopters will feature a chin-mounted, three barrel 20mm gun from Lockheed Martin and four pylons - each having two hard points - which will enable it to carry eight Nag anti-tank guided missiles, four 68mm or 70mm rocket pods or four tube-launched air-to-air missiles.
 
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I highly recommend to you reading this book before you make another thread because frankly you have no idea about how the arms industry works. There are parts on the F-22 that come from Japan, does that make the F-22 Japanese ? is that so tough to understand for you ????????? All your post till now just try to force a useless argument, the LCH, LCA, Dhruv are all Indian products with foreign parts only because of a production decision and nothing else. Argument done, case closed.

What you have mentioned about "international arms procurement" is not even the issue but the trollers like you who think Dhruv is as indigenous as any other western product such as F-22 or Gripen.
I am anxiously waiting to know how much technology F-22 uses of other origin that Indians brag about. As for Dhruv. I will still state the fact that technology used in Dhruv is not Indian at all but imported technologies assembled or bought of the self and integrated in India.
Their is no problem with Dhruv being a imported technology but when Indians brag about Dhruv being "Indigenous" technology its just plain wrong and false statements.
 
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guys can we stop arguing fruitlessly. . .how about we simply agree to disagree.
no need for personal attacks and nation bashing.
growler, if people are bragging ALH to be indigenous, i say let them. It wouldn't change the reality. Why does their acceptance matter so much to you?
I ask the same of indian members here too, why does pak members' acceptance matter so much??
at the end of the day, Dhruv (Indigenous or not) is a reality and India would use it as it sees fit.
give this thread some rest now, jeez.
 
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HAL utilizes its excellent reputation in the international community and has managed to get its hands on lot of technology because companies trust HAL with their patents. Its simple logic, if its cheaper and faster to buy why make it yourself. For example lets now look at the airbus A400M. Its parts are procured from Turkey, Spain, U.K, Belgium etc etc does that make the A400M a Turkish plane ?????? Its still a French jet but the excellent procurement practices of its purchasing department allows it to reduce cost with international procurement. The basic design and idea is still French but the parts can some from anywhere in the world.

And then as if cakes and pies analogies where not enough you come up with this?
Spain UK belgium Turkey have their technical input with their home grown technologies and its a joint development project and the credit does not goes to one country. Btw A400 is not a Jet plane.
As for Indians. THe problem is, Indians have taken more credit developing Dhruv and never mentions massive foreigner contribution and only because of them Dhruv exists.
 
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Other then wikipeedia statements like "indigenously devloped by HAL", I have yet to find at least 10% of technical indian contribution to Dhruv project.

technical indian contribution to Dhruv project.

ALH has been developed incorporating many advanced and innovative design and production technologies like Integrated dynamic system rotor concept, hingeless main rotor and bearingless tail rotors. The certification of the helicopter was delayed by 4 years due to technical issues encountered during development.Production of ALH with new glass cockpit, higher powered engine (Shakti)

PAGE 16 SOURCE http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/17threport.pdf
 
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All great points but I still have a few questions.

Yes, a lot of projects are based on collaboration, especially defence projects.

However, my question , based on what Growler has written, are:

What in the aircraft is indigenous, i.e. made in India, and what is the 'degree of difficulty' of that Indian contribution? Was it design? Or the frame?

Just curious, because Growler has a point, IMO.

Having said that, I would disagree with Growler when he seems to imply that putting a sustainable, replicable platform like the Dhruv into manufacturing (with contributions from other countries) is like putting together a plate of mithai.

From what I know, something like this is a very difficult thing to do, especially for aircraft, and requires considerable skills. It is an achievement.

By far the best post I can find in this long thread.

My friend you have to understand that IMO by no means is Dhruv a "cr@p" helicopter or anything like it which most of people are trying to assume about my opinion. And by no means is it a peace of cake to build a chopper at home but then the credit must be due where it is due. Without foreigner contribution Dhruv simply does not exists.
When all top of the multi national companies are contributing in this project, it simply has to be one of the best of its kind. Dhruv is by far the most successful project in indian history.
 
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What you have mentioned about "international arms procurement" is not even the issue but the trollers like you who think Dhruv is as indigenous as any other western product such as F-22 or Gripen.
I am anxiously waiting to know how much technology F-22 uses of other origin that Indians brag about. As for Dhruv. I will still state the fact that technology used in Dhruv is not Indian at all but imported technologies assembled or bought of the self and integrated in India.
Their is no problem with Dhruv being a imported technology but when Indians brag about Dhruv being "Indigenous" technology its just plain wrong and false statements.

If you call Desiman a troll then this forum is filled with trolls and that includes you.

From assembly you have moved on to the word "integration". I think the Post from Desiman has had some effect! :blink:

:cheers:
 
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growler bhai this all the information i can give you if you agree or not nor if some one agree with you or not nothing is going to change nor anything going to happen either to indian defence nor pakistan defence

Khuda Hafiz
 
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ALH has been developed incorporating many advanced and innovative design and production technologies like Integrated dynamic system rotor concept, hingeless main rotor and bearingless tail rotors. The certification of the helicopter was delayed by 4 years due to technical issues encountered during development.Production of ALH with new glass cockpit, higher powered engine (Shakti)

PAGE 16 SOURCE http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Defence/17threport.pdf

All of what you have mentioned above is provided by multi national companies and they are not Indian contribution. Shakti is not Indian other then 11% contribution.
Here is what i have already provided with sources.
In February 2003, Turbomeca and HAL signed three major contracts One contract covers the co-development and co-production of Ardiden 1H (Indian name: Shakti) engines: a large number of Ardiden 1H / Shakti engines are expected to be produced. 11 % of the development will be carried by HAL out in India. A first batch of engines will be produced at Turbomeca, France, and progressively most part of the production will be transferred to India. As a consequence of this close cooperation between HAL and Turbomeca, Indian engineers are now learning all the Shakti production know-how at the site in Bordes, France, Turbomeca's headquarters.
 
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If you call Desiman a troll then this forum is filled with trolls and that includes you.

From assembly you have moved on to the word "integration". I think the Post from Desiman has had some effect! :blink:

:cheers:

Why call this forum a troll when Indians themself are here for that purpose? The only effect here I can see is on members like you who feel necessary to defend other members. Kindly go and read pages 1-3 and educate yourself.
 
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Growler, I don't have to read any of your posts as long as you claim your sources are sacrosanct but every other perspective that does not suit your opinion being considered unreliable.

Your statistics of 5 % Indian contribution that at times creep up to 10% is amusing to say the least. Where do these numbers come from ? Looks like statistics are made on the spot.

About your suggestion to read pages 1to3, I know more about Dhruv development that you know. I have spent more time in HAL than the amount of time you have spent on this forum.

OK here is the death blow to your constant anti - indigenous theory.
You cannot claim that you know more than the Janes.

Here is an article from Janes : Jane's Information Group

India achieves first major export of Dhruv helicopter - Jane's Defence News

India achieves first major export of Dhruv helicopter
02 July 2008

India has finalised a USD50.7 million deal to supply Ecuador with seven Dhruv multirole advanced light helicopters: its first ever major overseas sale of an indigenously developed military platform.
....

© 2008 Jane's Information Group

What does your crystal ball say now ? Redefine "indigenously developed military platform" ?
:cheers:
 
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