How India lags China in submarine race

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Some mistaken assumptions.China has 38 modern SSKs.But SSKs are unuseable for operations in IOR,not because they can't sail there.But because unlike SSNs they have to surface often during this trip to recharge batteries,which if u do close to enemy waters- total sitting ducks detected by satellites and maritime patrol aircraft like p-8 poseidons.Secondly combined with above disadvantage even though the SSKs would have endurance to travel to IOR,without a refuelling base it doesn't have endurance to travel back to china after operating here,basically making such a mission a suicide one way trip.
Finally SSKs have low speed unsuited for deep ocean deployment,if they try to go high speed they become extremely noisy.Thus noise signature is basically life for a ssk,they can't make a silent underwater dash over 20 knots like latest nuke subs and shake off a pursuing ship.If they try to attain those speeds they become easy detections.Their main advantage is in shallower waters with their batteries switched off and waiting in ambush where they are deadly,and these ops are possible closer to ur own waters only.
It is because of these above reasons that USN completely discarded diesel subs as they are poor for long range global deployments that the usn needs and u are proposing PLAN undertake here.

As for the malacca straits we have andaman and nicobar sitting right on the doorstep.You don't.USN and IN already share data on any chinese sub deployments in the region and so far i spoke to 2 naval officers and both said IN has no problems picking up noisy chinese subs.This has also been publicly stated in media.
That leaves really 2-3 type 93 nuke subs which are the only semi-modern Nuke attack subs PLAN has for operations in IOR.The older han class is a huge noisy joke with propulsion problems and obsolete.Even the type 93 noise signature from USN sources is comparable to victor 3 class of ussr-1970s-80s level.Victor was the predecesor of the akula 1 types which have been followed by improved akula,akula 2 and now yasen each with lower signatures.

So the paper number u stated is just that paper figure,and completely irrelevant in terms of operations in indian ocean.When PLAN gets 20-30 modern SSNs we can talk about real threat.Not before.

Just curious what is the minimum dept required for a submarine to operate.

I have heard Submarines cannot submerge in shallow waters like Malacca strait and Sundra straits.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We are currently selling our AIP submarines to both Pakistan and Thailand for many billions of dollars.

You think people will just spend billions without testing it out first?

Why do you think we sailed our AIP diesel-electric submarine all the way to Karachi without surfacing once?

India is not even close to building an AIP submarine, obviously they were shocked when our AIP submarine docked in Karachi, they never believed we could do such a thing so easily.

So apart from our overwhelming advantage in border infrastructure (which means we can massively overwhelm India in terms of force concentration at any point along the border), we also have an overwhelming naval advantage as well.

I guess it's time for India to conduct Forward Policy 2.0.

 

[nForce]

Our AIP submarine had to stop, surface and recharge batteries on its journey to Karachi? Often?

Huh? Did you read the news?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

At which part of the journey exactly did our Yuan-class diesel electric AIP submarine have to surface and recharge its batteries?

Hey..is this really possible to complete such a long journey for a diesel submarine without surfacing ?

How do they recharge their batteries ? I'm curious.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Hey..is this really possible to complete such a long journey for a diesel submarine without surfacing ?

How do they recharge their batteries ? I'm curious.

It's called AIP.

It's the entire point of AIP.

We are selling these subs to Pakistan and Thailand, what's the point if they are forced to surface to recharge their batteries (often) as non-AIP diesel electric subs have to?

Wouldn't that ruin our sale? Instead we were successful and Pakistan has ordered 8 of these while Thailand has ordered several as well.

 

[nForce]

It's called AIP.

It's the entire point of AIP.

We are selling these subs to Pakistan and Thailand, what's the point if they are forced to surface to recharge their batteries (often) as non-AIP diesel electric subs have to?

Man.. I'm asking you how does AIP work ?
An I got the point China is selling a lot of them to Pakistan, I get it. You don't have to repeat it in every post of yours

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Our AIP submarine had to stop, surface and recharge batteries on its journey to Karachi? Often?

Huh? Did you read the news?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

At which part of the journey exactly did our Yuan-class diesel electric AIP submarine have to surface and recharge its batteries?

The news report is sensationalized.Had u bothered to read the official indian navy statement u would have deferred from the legendary indian media.Not only did the submarine surface and was videoed.Indian navy stated the movements had been minutely monitored.The submarine entered directly through the malacca bottleneck,never came close to indian waters following a wide circuitous route through international waters,what did u expect IN would sink it?
It never even ENTERED indian waters forget lurking through.Didn't do any operational deployment in IOR for any period,just passed through and docked at karachi to refuel.Understand that if u want to OPERATE in the IOR for any period of time meaning tracking,hunting etc for an extended period u have to surface or ur done.Passing by through international waters is not same as operational deployment in enemy waters.In any case the sub surfaced once midway through its journey.
When u actually come inside indian waters,or operate for a month in the IOR shipping lanes without detection then u call that 'lurk'.
A goodwill visit blown out of proportions by our usual legendary media.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Not only did the submarine surface and was videoed.

What?

Do you have a source and a video for that?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

We are currently selling our AIP submarines to both Pakistan and Thailand for many billions of dollars.

You think people will just spend billions without testing it out first?

Why do you think we sailed our AIP diesel-electric submarine all the way to Karachi without surfacing once?

India is not even close to building an AIP submarine, obviously they were shocked when our AIP submarine docked in Karachi, they never believed we could do such a thing so easily.

So apart from our overwhelming advantage in border infrastructure (which means we can massively overwhelm India in terms of force concentration at any point along the border), we also have an overwhelming naval advantage as well.

I guess it's time for India to conduct Forward Policy 2.0.

Just loling at this from an analyst.I never said the diesel submarines were bad ,lol.They are good for short range ops and will serve PN and thailand well operating NEAR TO THEIR SHORES .What i laugh at is ur attempt to project that capability on to PLAN subs thousands of miles from their home bases in IOR.The whole world has rejected SSKs for long range ops,but chinese wisdom is special.Ask any naval specialist.Otherwise USN would be operating huge numbers of diesel subs which are 1/4 the price of new nuke subs.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Just loling at this from an analyst.I never said the diesel submarines were bad ,lol.They are good for short range ops and will serve PN and thailand well operating NEAR TO THEIR SHORES .What i laugh at is ur attempt to project that capability on to PLAN subs thousands of miles from their home bases in IOR.The whole world has rejected SSKs for long range ops,but chinese wisdom is special.Ask any naval specialist.Otherwise USN would be operating huge numbers of diesel subs which are 1/4 the price of new nuke subs.

We had Chinese members here who stated China can deploy submarines into Indian waters through Brahmaputra river, so this wisdom displayed on this thread does not surprise me

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

What?

Do you have a source and a video for that?

A picture was posted in an earlier thread on this same topic.You were in that thread too if i recall.I would ask you to find it since i'm typing from cybercafe as my comp is down.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Just loling at this from an analyst.I never said the diesel submarines were bad ,lol.They are good for short range ops and will serve PN and thailand well operating NEAR TO THEIR SHORES .What i laugh at is ur attempt to project that capability on to PLAN subs thousands of miles from their home bases in IOR.The whole world has rejected SSKs for long range ops,but chinese wisdom is special.Ask any naval specialist.Otherwise USN would be operating huge numbers of diesel subs which are 1/4 the price of new nuke subs.

Nice personal attacks.

You said our AIP submarine had to surface "often" on its trip to Karachi and you said there was a video of it surfacing midway through the trip.

Are you lying about that or do you have proof to back it up?

You also said that diesel electric submarines would have to surface often (which indicates more than once i.e. several times) even to reach the Malacca straits, which is clearly wrong, since the entire point of AIP is to be able to stay submerged for several weeks.

Now your excuse is that you are at a cyber cafe so you can't prove anything you said. I'm eagerly awaiting the VIDEO proof, and an official source, not some random photoshopped picture.

 

[Sarjen29]

We are currently selling our AIP submarines to both Pakistan and Thailand for many billions of dollars.

You think people will just spend billions without testing it out first?

Why do you think we sailed our AIP diesel-electric submarine all the way to Karachi without surfacing once?

India is not even close to building an AIP submarine, obviously they were shocked when our AIP submarine docked in Karachi, they never believed we could do such a thing so easily.

So apart from our overwhelming advantage in border infrastructure (which means we can massively overwhelm India in terms of force concentration at any point along the border), we also have an overwhelming naval advantage as well.

I guess it's time for India to conduct Forward Policy 2.0.

He ws not talking about that.. he was talking the ability of These subs Travelling from such a long distance with out getting busted with its high noise. Again and again you're posting a stupid link but where the siurce for the article??? who gave them such a news???

it takes weeks for the the subs to reach karachi and even with AIP they had to surface since the journey is long.. even if IN found the sub they'll nnot give details on it.. remember our Admiral said.. IN is very awar of the Chinese vessels in IOR tracking the Chinese Vessels

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Nice personal attacks.

You said our AIP submarine had to surface on its trip to Karachi and you said there was a video of it surfacing midway through the trip.

Are you lying about that or do you have proof to back it up?

You also said that diesel electric submarines would have to surface often on that trip to Karachi, which is clearly wrong, since the entire point of AIP is to be able to stay submerged for several weeks.

There was picture of it posted on a thread on this forum.
Second i said SSK would have to surface often to OPERATE in IOR after sailing from china and if it didn't refuel it would be one way trip.So U can sail to pak port and refuel in peacetime not entering indian waters all u want.But in wartime actually tracking ships or hunting near indian waters for any period of time after a trip from china without surfacing is not possible and in any case you would need to go refuel very quickly or one way trip.SSKs are largely useless for global operations due to this reason,AIP has made them a bit better.But not removed the inherent problem.Otherwise you wouldn't see USN buying virginia boats at 5-6 times the price of a diesel submarine get it?
Nor would u see cash strapped russia building yasen class at 2-3.6 billion dollars-twice that of a borei class ssbn when it can get kilo for 500 million or more.Go ahead and ask out any naval specialist on the forum if u wish,sven svensonov,penguin,nihonjin.
China's huge diesel sub fleet is very useful in the south china sea as ambush weapons,as are IJN's superb diesel subs.But thousands of miles out here without any support coming through a chokepoint..not really.
Like i said only chinese subs that concern us at the moment is type 93 class which u have 2 or 3.Come back when u have 20-30.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

OK @AUSTERLITZ I found the "video" you were talking about.

The video was of the submarine surfacing as it was about to DOCK in Karachi port. Not midway through the journey as you claimed. It was actually in the same link:

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

According to reports, on March 31 this year, China's deadliest conventional submarine set sail from its base on Hainan island in the South China Sea.

But it was 335's first port of call that caught the attention of the security establishment in South Block.

So do you have that video of when our AIP sub was forced to "surface often" midway through the journey to Karachi? Obviously it would have to surface to dock about Karachi port, but you said it had to surface "often" midway through the journey to recharge its batteries.

Wouldn't that ruin our sale of AIP submarines? Why then, did Pakistan then order 8 with Thailand following suit?

Are you making personal attacks against me, for your own mistake?

 

[Sarjen29]

It's called AIP.

It's the entire point of AIP.

We are selling these subs to Pakistan and Thailand, what's the point if they are forced to surface to recharge their batteries (often) as non-AIP diesel electric subs have to?

Wouldn't that ruin our sale? Instead we were successful and Pakistan has ordered 8 of these while Thailand has ordered several as well.

Ya and the AIP will keep you under water for 10 years right??!!!!

they can stay under water for 14 days max that too at 5 kn based on Stirling engines which you gor from Sewden in 80s..

Now do you know how long it'll take for your sub to reach Karachi!!!

Hey..is this really possible to complete such a long journey for a diesel submarine without surfacing ?

How do they recharge their batteries ? I'm curious.

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