How India lags China in submarine race

[temp1994]

So why are you guys constantly crying about Chinese submarines operating in the Indian ocean?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

You guys have the same "1962 mentality" of underestimating us despite our submarines roaming around the Indian ocean on a regular basis.

The difference is unlike 1962, today we are not in the middle of the worst famine in our history. So you won't be attacking a starving country like you did last time.

Oh! I am really sorry that i pricked your fragile ego (probably resulting from short height). You seem to be incapable of understanding basics of technology. A Chinese sub operating on diesel would not be discovered by anyone; afterall it works on Chinese Physics, True True!!.

And BTW, Indian media is not controlled by government and is free to publish any story they weave around an instance.We do not have to such dick of our CCP commissars like you people need to do on regular basis.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

And BTW, Indian media is not controlled by government and is free to publish any story they weave around an instance.We do not have to suck dick of our CCP commissars like you people need to do on regular basis.

Wow, you lost the argument within 2 posts.

Rated negative for the bolded part. The rest is fine though.

And in case anyone else has an ACTUAL argument:

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

IF India had detected a possible enemy submarine, it would be criminal negligence if they just sat around twiddling their thumbs and not doing anything. Beyond criminal negligence.

 

[temp1994]

The difference is unlike 1962, today we are not in the middle of the worst famine in our history. So you won't be attacking a starving country like you did last time.

As for geography fail, have you seen how close Hainan island is to the Malacca straits? Have you ever seen a map?

Looks like aforementioned famine has taken a toll on your intelligence.

A&N island are less than 1000 Km away from Malacca strait compared to more than 2500Km distance between Hainan and malacca strait.

Wow, you lost the argument within 2 posts.

As if anyone is interested in your rants. Do you call bring 1962, famines and what not in discussion for capabilities of diesels subs, as an argument?

Frankly I have no desire to convince a moron like you who could not even comprehend basic facts. I have posted that write-up for neutral observers of this forum who would be able to clearly appreciate that battery range of a diesel sub is just couple of hundred kilometers after which it has to start its diesel engine thus revealing itself to pretty much everyone.

Stew in you own stupidity, retard. Auf widersehen.

Rated negative for the bolded part. The rest is fine though. :enjoy

Ya.Those negative ratings would cause monetary loss to me. I am scared, very scared. LOL.

Frankly, get a life.

28000 posts and years wasted on a defence forum, and still does not know basics of submarines.Noting could be sadder than that.

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

IF India had detected a possible enemy submarine, it would be criminal negligence if they just sat around twiddling their thumbs and not doing anything. Beyond criminal negligence.

Is this an official IN press issue? When had mass media reports become an authoritative statement?

Oh! I forgot that you Chinese are CCP slaves and your media could not print even a single word without first clearing it with your beloved CCP, thus it should not be surprising that you think that media of all countries serve as their government's mouthpiece.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Frankly I have no desire to convince a moron like you who could not even comprehend basic facts.

Stew in you own stupidity, retard. Auf widersehen.

Looks like something I said has upset you terribly for you to be crying this much and throwing personal attacks right left and center.

Still, your crying is hilarious so thumbs up for that.

Anyone else with a brain want to try and explain how any country, after detecting a possible enemy submarine, would just sit around twiddling their thumbs and do nothing at all? That is so far beyond criminal negligence they need a new word for it.

So either the Indian Navy is incredibly incompetent, or they didn't detect any submarine there. Which one is it?

 

[21 Dec 2012]

Anyone else with a brain want to try and explain how any country, after detecting a possible enemy submarine, would just sit around twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing about it? That is so far beyond criminal negligence they need a new word for it.

What does your country do after detecting submarines in International waters?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What does your country do after detecting submarines in International waters?

You mean right past Indian waters?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

And obviously if there was a possible enemy submarine detected nearby, some kind of movement of naval assets would make the most sense, unless the person in charge is criminally negligent against such a massive potential threat.

 

[temp1994]

Looks like something I said has upset you terribly for you to be crying this much and throwing personal attacks right left and center. :lol

Personal attack?

I am providing am accurate description of you. I have no respect for retards, and if you post filth in response to a technical argument, you would certainly not get any modicum of respect from me.

Anyone else with a brain want to try and explain how any country, after detecting a possible enemy submarine, would just sit around twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing about it? That is so far beyond criminal negligence they need a new word for it.

So either the Indian Navy is incredibly incompetent, or they didn't detect any submarine there. Which one is it?

For Neutral observers.

This moron does not know basics of International convention of seas.

During peacetime, a Navy could enforce its will only in its territorial waters which are 12 nautical miles away from its shores.

Every Ocean faring vessel ,including Naval vessel, has a right of navigation on high seas , ie outside territorial water of a country.High seas could be used for any military activity and no state has a right to board or attack that vessel when it is on high seas.Doing so would constitute an act of war. Thus IN had no locus standi to intercept that Chines sub, even if it knew where it was.Even in territorial waters, a naval vessel has right for innocent passage (ie by displaying flags) unless, that country is at war with your country.

For interested:

Interested person could go through these links

UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index

http://www.jag.navy.mil/organization/code_10_law_of_the_sea.htm

 

[21 Dec 2012]

You mean right past Indian waters?

Exclusive: Chinese submarine lurked past Indian waters, docked in Karachi - India Today

And obviously if there was a possible enemy submarine detected nearby, some kind of movement of naval assets would make the most sense, unless the person in charge is criminally negligent against such a massive potential threat.

What does it mean 'right past Indian waters'. Is there any other source apart from this tabloid eg. Indian press conference. How would YOU know the Indian Navy's response to this submarine?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Personal attack?

I am providing am accurate description of you. I have no respect for retards, and if you post filth in response to a technical argument, you would certainly not get any modicum of respect from me.

Have you even read this thread? Who is posting "filth" apart from this crybaby here?

We do not have to suck dick of our CCP commissars like you people need to do on regular basis.

-----------------------------------

This moron does not know basics of International convention of seas.

During peacetime, a Navy could enforce its will only in its territorial waters which are 12 nautical miles away from its shores.

"Enforce its will"?

I'm talking about a "defensive movement" of naval assets, against a huge potential threat (unknown enemy submarine in proximity). The kind of movement, that could be seen by say, a satellite.

Not "enforcing its will", lol. I have no idea where you are getting this stuff from?

 

[temp1994]

I'm talking about a "defensive movement" of naval assets, against a huge potential threat (unknown enemy submarine in proximity).

How do you know that it did not happened?

Do you reside under Indian Navy's desk, or under PLAN's chief's desk, thus knowing whether it happened of not?

I'm talking about a "defensive movement" of naval assets, against a huge potential threat (unknown enemy submarine in proximity).

Neutral observers.

No observable defence movement is required, if a Diesel electric sub has been detected and you do not intend to sink it.

Range of Submarine launched Torpedos is in tens of Kilometers. It does not pose any threat to your Naval assets unless it comes in close proximity to that asset.There is no need to take any action against a diesel sub during peacetime.

Thus observing by using hydrophones is enough. All navies keep track of other Navy's sub ,friend and foe alike, in their area of operation, all the time. No aggressive action is taken against a Sub unless a nation is at war ,or wants to start a war. Listening to noise that a sub makes and registering it in your acoustic registry is maximum extent of action taken during peace time.There is nothing that a Navy could achieve by chasing a diesel submarine ,once it has been detected, except making captain of that sub aware of detection capabilities of your Navy.By providing estimates of your capabilities to your enemy sub, you may lose chance of intercepting it in war since your enemy's navy is going to adapt its tactics to your detection capabilities.This is the reason that even USA ,which is numero uno in naval tech, never intercepts an enemy's/adversary's submarine during peace time.

A Diesel sub has a very limited and only one time potential to cause any damage. Once detected, it ceases to be a threat . A SSBN is a much bigger threat and SOP on detection of a SSBN is that it is shadowed by your SSN on detection (if you have SSN).

The kind of movement, that could be seen by say, a satellite

Do you get direct satellite feed from CCP's satellites?

 

[21 Dec 2012]

@temp1994 CD is an expert troll. It would be futile to waste any more breath on this guy. This is a Chinese-slave forum, so it doesn't matter if he 'Wins'.

 

[kadamba-warrior]

@temp1994 CD is an expert troll. It would be futile to waste any more breath on this guy. This is a Chinese-slave forum, so it doesn't matter if he 'Wins'.

Exactly! Nobody else gives away -ve ratings as fast as him. A sure sign of issues somewhere else, obviously. If I were him, I would seek help rather than taking it out on an anonymous Internet forum.

Not only does he pick on Indians specifically, but parrots the same set of links in every thread when it comes to any discussion regarding India!

But then who are we to question what certain Chinese members do when the webby seems only happy to see his own forum getting eroded in quality by these bunch!?

 

[temp1994]

@temp1994 CD is an expert troll. It would be futile to waste any more breath on this guy. This is a Chinese-slave forum, so it doesn't matter if he 'Wins'.

True.

I think mutually reinforcing stupidity with inability to comprehend basic sentences form bedrock of higher than mountain and sweeter than honey patnership.

Both Chinese and Pakistanis do not understand meaning of territorial water, contiguous zone, Exclusive Economic Zone, and High seas; even if rulebook is literally thrown in their face.

There are Pakistanis ranting here as to how IN could not operate in their EEZ or how Pakistan would not allow India-Oman-Iran undersea gas pipeline to pass through its EEZ even though UNCLOS clearly states that a country only has exclusive right to exploit EEZ's marine resources for commercial purpose and could not control any shipping and communications (Pipelines and undersea cables are counted as communication and counted as communication) in its EEZ. They could not even charge a fee off shipping and communication passing through its EEZ.Though this has not stopped Pakistanis and a false flag american here to go ecstatic and state that extension of EEZ for Pakistan has added something to their military capability and IN would not be able to transverse its EEZ.


BTW: I corrected his rants so that neutral readers could be made aware of stupidity of this whole business of comparing diesel-electric sub's number when they cannot operate far away from their shores without being detected and sunk. I have no interest in convincing him or any other entrenched hater of Naval basics.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

True.

I think mutually reinforcing stupidity with inability to comprehend basic sentences form bedrock of higher than mountain and sweeter than honey patnership.

Both Chinese and Pakistanis do not understand meaning of territorial water, contiguous zone, Exclusive Economic Zone, and High seas; even if rulebook is literally thrown in their face.

There are Pakistanis ranting here as to how IN could not operate in their EEZ or how Pakistan would not allow India-Oman-Iran undersea gas pipeline to pass through its EEZ even though UNCLOS clearly states that a country only has exclusive right to exploit EEZ's marine resources for commercial purpose and could not control any shipping and communications (Pipelines and undersea cables are counted as communication and counted as communication) in its EEZ. They could not even charge a fee off shipping and communication passing through its EEZ.Though this has not stopped Pakistanis and a false flag american here to go ecstatic and state that extension of EEZ for Pakistan has added something to their military capability and IN would not be able to transverse its EEZ.


BTW: I corrected his rants so that neutral readers could be made aware of stupidity of this whole business of comparing diesel-electric sub's number when they cannot operate far away from their shores without being detected and sunk. I have no interest in convincing him or any other entrenched hater of Naval basics.

So much BS in a single post, but you still can't explain how the Indian Navy could have detected a possible enemy submarine (one of the biggest possible threats to naval assets) yet they just sat on their hands, twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing? That is beyond criminal negligence.

So either they are incredibly incompetent, or they did not detect it. Which one is it?

After our AIP sub docked at Karachi, both Pakistan and Thailand ordered submarines from us. So I guess they believed it was good enough to spend their billions on.

But I'm sure these governments are going to listen to some clueless fanboys on the internet on how to spend their money right?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Nope. I did read that "opinion" piece in the Chinadaily, and it is obviously referencing the submarine that docked in Sri Lanka, and it surfaced for diplomatic reasons, not the ones you stated.

Secondly you are trying to move the goalposts, here is my post that you quoted, on the first page:



We were talking about the Malacca straits.

You said the problem was that our diesel-electric submarines had to surface "often" to recharge their batteries to even reach the Malacca straits (thus they were not a concern), which is clearly not true since the entire point of AIP is to remain submerged for a signficiant amount of time (several weeks).

Now if what you claim is true, and our submarine had to surface "often" in order to recharge their batteries before even reaching the Malacca straits, that means our sale of AIP submarines to Pakistan and Thailand was done on false premises, since if your assertion is true then they would be no different to regular non-AIP submarines.

Yet they are still buying it, so what's going on?

You also claimed to have "video proof" of this assertion. I've been asking for this "video proof" at least 4 times now, still interested to see it. Especially in light of our submarine deals with Pakistan and Thailand, since if your assertion is true then the deals would be cancelled due to false advertising.

Wrong read the piece again.Clearly mentions it surfacing while passing through malacca.
'In fact, they passed visibly through the Strait of Malacca with other Chinese naval ships sailing to the Gulf of Aden.'
This refers to both deployments.You see this news report is latest from 20th july not old one.Check date.

Now onto second part.Yes they do have to surface often,unlike nuke subs.U can use AIP to increase time to 3 weeks at the cost of cutting down ur speed to 4-5 knts and take a very long time getting to ur target and increasing endurance load which is limited,and with no refuelling 1 way trip.
Finally don't really know why this is so difficult to understand,pakistan and thailand will operate these ships CLOSE TO THEIR SHORES from their home ports.AIP is perfect for these conditions,no large travel distances required.The reduction of speed with AIP means little here as submarines will largely lay in ambush against enemy forces in shallow waters,no need for huge distance travel which requires speed.Secondly if needed they can surface once maybe in 20-25 days near their home base and under friendly cover.They can also easily come back to home port and refuel.None of these apply for chinese diesel subs in IOR.Unfortunately u don't seem to understand the difference between long range and short range operations and why AIP is not much of use in former ones while very effective in latter due to speed penalty which is vital for long distance travel and ops with no base in the combat area,and second close to home shores.This is reason major navies use nuke subs for global deployments,proof is right in front of you.You can ask any naval specialist too.If AIP was the magic answer,there would be no point in building SSNs at 4-5 times the price.