How good the Mig-29 UPG/SMT against the F-16 Blk 50/52+ ??

[ptldM3]

@ptldM3

More conspiracy theories.

FIRST, I want to see a solid proof of when did a Mig-29 shoot down an F/A-18 Hornet?

it was a mig-25, and when did I ever make conspiracy theories? You are now claiming that the Iranians never lost F-14s to migs? Or that during Vietnam war, Arab- Israeli conflicts, indo-Pakistani conflicts, gulf war ect that US aircraft have never been shot down in air battle. Migs have downed several hundred F-4 alone.

The real conspiracy theories is coming from you. I still see no proof of your claims that migs have poor situational awareness, or ECM. I want hard proof.

 

[帅的一匹]

Seriously shut up. No RCS figures of the J-10 exist, and if you believe the 0.5 figure then you are a gullible fool. The J-10 is full of 90 degree angles, there is no better way to ensure a bigger RCS then 90 degree angles. Even if we are generous and say that is only a clean frontal RCS, we still have to count external weapons and pylons, which when added negate that RCS.

Also weapons systems are more important, if RCS was all that mattered then the F-15 and SU-27 should have been shot down with ease by small aircraft which is not the case considering neither aircraft have lost in air to air combat.

MIG29 is not that successful in air combat record against NATO, what you say? You try to steal the concept of small civillian aircraft from a military fighter? Next time try J10B with your SU30, since both are friendly countries make it possible.

@ptldM3, Do you support Mr presisdent Putin?

 

[Manticore]

PAF F-16 mlu specifications and 36 blk 52+ prospects

 

[Hulk]

To start with I am a civilian, so please bare with me if I sound illogical. However I feel MIG not scoring over For needs to look differently.
1) Was there a war between two countries where Country having MIG had more resources than on having F16?
2) Did the combat between MIG and F16 was on equal level terms of, no of aircraft used on each side, support of AWACS?

My key argument is if F16 forces was always US or Israel and MIG forces were Iraq, Syria etc. Than that comparison is not true and results will be very biased.

 

[dbc]

To start with I am a civilian, so please bare with me if I sound illogical. However I feel MIG not scoring over For needs to look differently.
1) Was there a war between two countries where Country having MIG had more resources than on having F16?
2) Did the combat between MIG and F16 was on equal level terms of, no of aircraft used on each side, support of AWACS?

My key argument is if F16 forces was always US or Israel and MIG forces were Iraq, Syria etc. Than that comparison is not true and results will be very biased.

And their in lies the foolishness in 1 v 1 comparisons.

 

[Kompromat]

@ptldM3

When did a Mig-25 Shoot down an F/A-18 hornet?

 

[kurup]

@ptldM3

When did a Mig-25 Shoot down an F/A-18 hornet?

During the Persian Gulf War, a US Navy F/A-18, piloted by Lt Cdr Scott Speicher, was shot down on the first night of the war by a missile fired by a MiG-25.The kill was reportedly made with a Bisnovat R-40TD missile fired from a MiG-25PDS flown by Lt. Zuhair Dawood of the 84th squadron of the IrAF.

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BeyondHeretic]

mig-29 can jump off Chinese aircraft carrier too , but the f-16 had to be replaced with f-18 hornet for that task

 

[Luftwaffe]

^Why are you proving the other guy's point? From your own link:

Am I...atleast you should appreciate I did not post balloony information, will take you to LM link and show you some more information that would put vintage fulcrums on sale in pawn shops.

You people are drifting away from real topic, the mission computer/processor is up to date and performs well above parameters you need not cry over it like @Aeronaut said bring fulcrum performance and history and talk about it so far the worst performer in air combat, world just don't give a hoot to its "cheap "price if that was the case Malaysians wouldn't be scrapping it. Talk about quality remember Algerians returning fulcrums back to russian because of poor terrible quality that's not a 2 decade old story...check-mate.

And yes 2mig-21 you did not post complete information allow me to post it since it provides efficiency and is well above expectations that is why it is being used.

Modular Mission Computer
The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.
It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42% less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.

Everything is positive about it why are you guys crying atleast it will not crash the aircraft with poor parts and other equipment inside fulcrum like Algerian air force slapped back at russians with the return immediately malaysians also decided to retire in time, maybe you people should bid for malaysian fulcrums if you love those advance coffins so much.

Wait let me break even a better news straight from Raytheon Company.

Raytheon Company: F-16 Modular Mission Computer (MMC)

The Modular Mission Computer (MMC) provides airborne processing power that will allow the F-16 to execute mission requirements well into the 21st century.
A cost-effective mid-life update for the F-16, the MMC delivers enhanced computing power to the aircraft's avionics and weapon systems. As a member of Lockheed Martin's F-16 team, Raytheon developed a single high-performance system to replace the fighter jet's three original computers. The MMC's advanced features — and potential for expansion — enable the F-16 to meet present and future mission challenges.
For pilots, the MMC significantly improves situational awareness, air-to-air capabilities, targeting accuracy and information. Equipped with this powerful computer, the F-16 can take greater advantage of such growth technologies as helmet-mounted cueing systems, advanced weapons loads, reconnaissance pods and forward-looking infrared targeting and navigation systems.
The streamlined MMC is smaller, lighter and more efficient than its predecessor systems. Reducing weight by 55 percent, volume by 42 percent and power usage by 32 percent, the updated system is more reliable and less costly to maintain. Its modular design allows two-level maintenance (i.e., flight-line replacement of line replaceable modules), eliminating the need to remove and replace the entire computer. Mean time between failure exceeds 1245 hours.
With more than 1,600 shipsets either delivered or on order, the MMC enjoys a worldwide clientele. Customers include the U.S. Air Force and numerous international governments, including Belgium, Chile, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Poland, Portugal, Taiwan and Turkey.

 

[Kompromat]

During the Persian Gulf War, a US Navy F/A-18, piloted by Lt Cdr Scott Speicher, was shot down on the first night of the war by a missile fired by a MiG-25.The kill was reportedly made with a Bisnovat R-40TD missile fired from a MiG-25PDS flown by Lt. Zuhair Dawood of the 84th squadron of the IrAF.

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

o'h the wikipedia, saviour of high schoolers.

There are THREE conflicting accounts.

1: He had a mid air freak collision with an Iraqi Mig-25 with the Foxbat coming at very high speed. The F/A-18 hornet just disintegrated in mid air.

2: It was shot down by a SAM hit.

3: It was shot down by a Foxbat.


There are conflicting accounts which support above theories. Therefore we will never know the truth.

What we do know for sure is that a Foxbat was knocked out by an F-16 later which became the first AMRAAM kill.

 

[Mav3rick]

You are limiting the performance of the fighter with a very limited point of view here! Even a squadron of latest Eurofighters would not stand a chance against a numerical and technological superior force, even if they include only fighters that are inferior to the EF in a 1 on 1 comparison.

Similarly, your view on PAFs F16s and IAFs Mig 29UPG is very limited as well. The F16s might have BVR capability now, but remain technically and even wrt their weapon packages very limited compared to what other F16 MLUs/B52s have and even to the Mig, that comes with IRST, advanced RWRs, MAWS and jammers. So even if the F16s has a RCS advantage, a passive Mig with these sensor and EW capabilites will remain with advantages in BVR combat, to an F16 that is dependent mainly on it's active radar!
The high capability of R73 in WVR combats was even the reason for western countries to develop similar high agile missiles, but the AIM 9M that PAF got, remains to be inferior and the high maneuverablity of the Mig should be undeniable, which many NATO pilots found out in exercises as well.

Bottom line is, the F16 with all capabilities available, is the better overall fighter "in a 1 on 1 comparison" and not simply based on combat history. But in the PAF vs IAF scenario things are a bit different, since there are limitations on the one side and improvements on the other, which can't be ignored like that.

On the one hand you are pointing out the users limited point of view and on the other hand you are doing exactly the same. Perhaps it is not wise just to measure the Jets in a versus mode without realistic limitations or boundaries. One of the most important factor, apart from performance and radar statistics, of the Jets would be the BVR/WVR they carry. Second most important is the Jammer.

Now when anybody speaks of the BVR engagements one can state that no Russian Jet has ever scored a BVR hit in actual combat, despite multiple releases, like never! And on top of that, the Russian SOP is to fire a salve of 2 or more missiles of different tracking types. Yet they have never hit their target. AIM-120C on the other hand has actually seen combat and down multiple targets.

Coming to the Jammers, the Russian Jammers were unable to JAM their own SAM systems in the Georgian war, how good can they be??? The Israeli Jammers, on the other hand, would be the real threat to even an AIM-120C.

Now, ignoring the versus tone of this thread, if we were to realistically pit the Mig-29 with F-16, we will have to draw scenarios such as IAF attempting air dominance over PAF skies or vice versa. Because the former is an aggressor and the later is a defender.

This can go on and on.......

Actually we can take it the other way around. The Teen series can only fight against the MiG-29 if a required set of pre-conditions are true.

1# The opponent is a third world country, has all his EWR assets and most of this Airfield assets taken out by cruise missiles at the start of the war.
2# The opponents pilots are so well trained and in high spirits that some even flee their own country with their jets to a neighbouring country.
3# The Friendlies are operating in an environment with full AWACS and JSTARS coverage which give all the data to the Teens to function properly, which which they are useless. F-16 doesnt even have IRST.
4# Spy plane and Spy statellites giving round the clock updated information on the location of the enemy fighter-regroup locations.
5# Teens outnumber the MiG-29s by a factor of 30:1 or even more.
6# MiG-29s are poorly maintained and are downgraded variants which have never seen upgrades.

You take these away and the teen series are nothing more than flying heaps of overpriced scrap metal.

In the above 6 points, which points can PAF claim?

So the MiG-29 kills made, logically are shared by boat loads of AWACS, Spy sats, JSTARS, Spy planes, Cruise missiles, teen fighters etc etc. So basically the teen series aircraft are nothing more than junks if viewed individually, which coincidentally is what the thread is all about a one on one comparison. Funny...

Iraqi AWACS?? You make up stories to suit your interest? Iraqis had never had awacs. All they had was an incomplete prototype which also fled to Iran at the start of the war itself.

As for the rest of the post, all that wont save PAF's Block-52s *** from a R-73 with an ITR far surpassing that of the F-16, nor from a Zhuk-ME R-27 E series combo... all this assuming the kill switches on the Block-52s don't get activated.

I just wanted to say something in regards to Point 5 above. The Mig is in a situation where destructing is a forgone conclusion. However, with over 30 prospective targets, and apparently excellent platforms, shouldn't the Mig be able to fire all her BVW/WVR and down a couple of Teens???

 

[Mav3rick]

Topsight-l HMDS.. from French Thales. Along with R-73 latest versions vs Aim-9M older version and the ITR advantage.


Nah, its not faily tale, its the part of the story you censored. All you are blabbering about is equivalent to what's going on in Stromfront where they sprout, poor hitler committed suicide and we have to feel sorry for him, without going into the details of why he did that.

We would like to party with the PAF but the last time a war happened with India, PAF was no where to be seen and were hiding in their shelters safely. I hope next time a war takes place they will put up a fight, but I'm hoping against hope here.

The last time a war took place b/w India and Pakistan, India refused neutral arbitration because it had lost 2/3rd of it's Air Force. And I am hoping you have enough IQ to distinguish when a war is being fought with you and when a war is being fought internally.

 

[Mav3rick]

Excellent analysis. You have considered all the facts in your analysis. By the way, we don't require su30mkis to defeat you since it took us only 13 days to crush you in 1971, so this time we will crush you in 7 days.

Son, thing is, it was an internal fight which was capitalized on by India. The Bengalis used and abused India like a ***** and then discarded her without even paying her!! However, on this side, have you even been able to take Azad Kashmir????

 

[Kompromat]

Ou mama apna kaam kar,, Yaha technical discussion ho rahi hai,, Jahilo ki zarurat nahi.

Banned from the thread.

 

[rockstarIN]

The last time a war took place b/w India and Pakistan, India refused neutral arbitration because it had lost 2/3rd of it's Air Force. And I am hoping you have enough IQ to distinguish when a war is being fought with you and when a war is being fought internally.

Pakistan should have won that war if PAF was able to kill 2/3 of IAF. Btw..neutral opinions are available in the net.