How did the PAF looked like in 1965?

[Adux]

Blain,

I have already acknowledged whatever Niaz Sir has said including Pakistan Pilots did recieve Better Training and better Professionals.
Though from what I have read F-86 is superior albit slightly

 

[EagleEyes]

There is a surrendered Gnat at PAF Faisal. When you sit in it. It looks like your sitting on a donkey.

 

[blain2]

Blain,

I have already acknowledged whatever Niaz Sir has said including Pakistan Pilots did recieve Better Training and better Professionals.
Though from what I have read F-86 is superior albit slightly

Np. Simply pointing out that F-86 was not superior to Hawker Hunter. Since Goodperson has cited from Wikipedia of all the places , he should also look at the performance parameters of the Hunter and the F-86.


Hunter Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.94, 620 knots (715 mph, 1,150 km/h) at sea level
* Combat range: 385 nm (445 mi, 715 km)
* Ferry range: 1,650 nm (1,900 mi, 3,060 km) with external fuel
* Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
* Rate of climb: 17,200 ft/min (87.4 m/s)
* Wing loading: 51.6 lb/ft² (251.9 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.56

F-86 Performance

* Maximum speed: 685 mph (595 knots, 1,100 km/h)
* Range: 1,200 mi (1,000 nm, 1,900 km)
* Service ceiling: 49,000 ft (14,900 m)
* Rate of climb: 7,250 ft/min (36.8 m/s)
* Thrust/weight: 0.38
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 15.1
* Time to altitude: 6.3 min to 30,000 ft (9,145 m)


As I mentioned, Sabre was flown with more aggressive and fluid tactics. The aircraft was not superior to the Hunter in any manner. PAF pilots downed an IAF Mirage III with the same aircraft in the 73 Yom Kippur war so its (Hunter's) potency is not to be underestimated.

Also on the issue of AAMs that are being mentioned, PAF only expended 23 or so AIM-9s throughout the entire war and the success rate was something like 9%. Most of the kills were with the gun.

 

[ahussains]

This is all with the Grace of Allah what we achived in 1965 war... this is what we say JAZBA and we will do it again Inshallah when the time comes

 

[blain2]

This is all with the Grace of Allah what we achived in 1965 war... this is what we say JAZBA and we will do it again Inshallah when the time comes

Right but more so than jazba, we should remember the common adage in the Pakistan Army which is "Josh say nahi, hosh say"

 

[Keysersoze]

This is all with the Grace of Allah what we achived in 1965 war... this is what we say JAZBA and we will do it again Inshallah when the time comes

Well you can rely upon the grace of God if you want.....I would prefer it if they relied upon skill and good equipment.

 

[niaz]

Well you can rely upon the grace of God if you want.....I would prefer it if they relied upon skill and good equipment.

How right you are Keyser. It is a pity that we leave too much on Allah and blame all our failures on the will of the Almighty. This is the worst kind of escapism. Except for the holy Prophet ( PBUH), I dont believe in divine intervention for any other person. Religion is just a set of living codes to make you a better person. Success or failure in real life is a combination of several factors most of these are linked to the human effort, his technical knowledge and discipline.

Prime example is our cricket team. The idiots say Azan and offer prayers on the aeroplane as a show of religious fervour but fail miserably on the cricket field which was their main objective. Did they expect Allah to bat for them or make the opponents drop catches?? Every one has a right to follow his /her beliefs but this kind of mindset is either being extremely naive or being a hypocrite. Muslim power have been in a decline for the last 300 years precisely for this reason.

Religion is a definite help and since we believe in life after death, we should not ignore the dictats of the holy Quran. But does it mean that we ignore the ground realities ?? Our showing was good in 1965 war not because Allah helped us but because of sweating blood during the peacetime to prepare for war.

God only helps those who help themselves.

 

[Interceptor]

Np. Simply pointing out that F-86 was not superior to Hawker Hunter. Since Goodperson has cited from Wikipedia of all the places , he should also look at the performance parameters of the Hunter and the F-86.


Hunter Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 0.94, 620 knots (715 mph, 1,150 km/h) at sea level
* Combat range: 385 nm (445 mi, 715 km)
* Ferry range: 1,650 nm (1,900 mi, 3,060 km) with external fuel
* Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
* Rate of climb: 17,200 ft/min (87.4 m/s)
* Wing loading: 51.6 lb/ft² (251.9 kg/m²)
* Thrust/weight: 0.56

F-86 Performance

* Maximum speed: 685 mph (595 knots, 1,100 km/h)
* Range: 1,200 mi (1,000 nm, 1,900 km)
* Service ceiling: 49,000 ft (14,900 m)
* Rate of climb: 7,250 ft/min (36.8 m/s)
* Thrust/weight: 0.38
* Lift-to-drag ratio: 15.1
* Time to altitude: 6.3 min to 30,000 ft (9,145 m)


As I mentioned, Sabre was flown with more aggressive and fluid tactics. The aircraft was not superior to the Hunter in any manner. PAF pilots downed an IAF Mirage III with the same aircraft in the 73 Yom Kippur war so its (Hunter's) potency is not to be underestimated.

Also on the issue of AAMs that are being mentioned, PAF only expended 23 or so AIM-9s throughout the entire war and the success rate was something like 9%. Most of the kills were with the gun.

Some one in my family who is in the PAF told me that they are still FLYABLE the Sabre they have been taken good care of, and I also heard that some of them were sold to Hollywood.

 

[fatman17]

a good book to read about the airwar of 65 is Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker.

 

[Muradk]

This is not correct. IAF had a squadron of Mig 21's. Most of these were shot down either on the ground or during take off. I am not sure but these were based either on Pathankot or Halwara. A certain Flt Lt Khalid Latif who took part in 65 war under the command of Nozy Haider, was younger brother of a close friend. He told me that he saw IAF Mig 21's himself.

I have also had a discussion with the great MM Alam once. He came to Kuwait sometimes in late 70's and I met him at the house of a mutual friend who was on secondment to Kuwaiti Air Force as an instructor. What I could gather was that PAF came on top in 1965 mainly because of two things:

1. Air Marshal Asghar Khan was an exceptional commander who instilled extreme professionalism in all branches of PAF. PAF was therefore better trained and prepared and behaved like a unit.

2. Hunter was a slightly superior aircraft to F-86, but Pakistan had the good fortune of having half a dozen exceptionally skilled pilots such as Aluddin Butch; MM Alam, Sarfraz Rafiqui and Nozey Haider etc. This prevented numerical superiority of IAF to have any effect of the battle.

Indians however learned a lot from this drubbing and competency of the pilots were evenly matched during 1971. PAF showing in 1971 is nothing to be pround off.

Incidentally, nepotism and lack of professionalism surfaced in PAF during Bhutto time and became worse during Zia era when he promoted his brother in law( husband of wife's sister), who was then base commander Mauripur and subsequently raised him to PAF Chief. MM Alam retired as AVM. Last PAF Chief who actually saw action was Pervez Mehdi Qureshi who was based in East Pakistan and shot down by ground fire while attacking IAF airfields in West Bengal in 1971.

I have a feeling the merit had ceased to be a basis of promotion in PA since Ayub Khan later years. ( The book "The way it was" by Brig Zafar Alam). Dont know much about Navy but according a retired AVM who I met in Dubai recently, skills of Pakistani pilots upto the Squadron Leader level is second to none, it is the Air Commodore and higher ranks where the merit is not necessarily the basis for promotion.

Among PAF Chiefs, there has been no one with professionalism and integrity to match Asgahr Khan/ Noor Khan. Mushif Mir was the only one who stands out among the rest.

Naiz , MM Alam retired as an Air Commodore not AVM, And PAF since the day it was turned from RPAF to PAF up till today the standards have been the same. What Asghar Khan , Nur Khan speciallly Nur Khan the foundations they laid were so strong that we have been exceeding them at all levels. And The AVM you met in Dubai do you remember his name. Any one of names click ( MONIN ARIF or JAMAL )

 

[niaz]

Naiz , MM Alam retired as an Air Commodore not AVM, And PAF since the day it was turned from RPAF to PAF up till today the standards have been the same. What Asghar Khan , Nur Khan speciallly Nur Khan the foundations they laid were so strong that we have been exceeding them at all levels. And The AVM you met in Dubai do you remember his name. Any one of names click ( MONIN ARIF or JAMAL )

Surely promotion of Zafar Chaudhry by ZAB was not on merit alone.
I rather not name the AVM without his permission, he is a cousin of a friend and we had some off the record discussions. Having been in the PAF you can probably guess, he has flown Star Fighters during 1971 war.

 

[Muradk]

Yes I understand.

 

[Venkat]

Last PAF Chief who actually saw action was Pervez Mehdi Qureshi who was based in East Pakistan and shot down by ground fire while attacking IAF airfields in West Bengal in 1971.

He was shot down in aircombat by a Gnat and not by Ground Fire. Just google around

 

[Venkat]

This is not correct. IAF had a squadron of Mig 21's. Most of these were shot down either on the ground or during take off. I am not sure but these were based either on Pathankot or Halwara. A certain Flt Lt Khalid Latif who took part in 65 war under the command of Nozy Haider, was younger brother of a close friend. He told me that he saw IAF Mig 21's himself.

"shot down" refers to an aircraft destroyed in the air - because it can only go down. It cannot refer to an aircraft destroyed on the ground. you can use the opposite 'shot up'.

in the 65 war, the iaf lost 3 of its nine migs - two were destroyed on ground by nosey haiders attack. one at adampur in a bomber raid.

 

[ejaz007]

In 1965 PAF was going through what could be called modernization or rebuilding. Since 1956 courtesy of US aid PAF started receiving F-86, F-104, B-57 and T-37. By 1965 PAF had approximately 100 F-86, 12 F-104 and 25 B-57 in its inventory. PAF basically had only one type of fighter the Saber since Star fighters were in short numbers. Against F-86 IAF had Hunters and Gnats. In ground attack IAF had Mystere IVA and Ouragan. In bomber category both had almost similar type of light bombers PAF B-57 against IAF Canberra. On paper IAF was far better that PAF with perhaps more than 400 planes against approximately 150. Indian MIG 21 was superior than F-104. Similarly Hunter was better than Saber. However one area where IAF lacked was proper training and tactics. Also some PAF pilots had flown Hunters on exchange duties with UK air force and thus knew its strengths and weaknesses. This proved helpful. As far as MIG-21’s role in 1965 war they were destroyed on the ground during PAF raids on IAF fields.