How can Pakistan make peace with its neighbours?

[Nahraf]

How can Pakistan make peace with its neighbours?
for a sec just image, that how great it would be if Pakistan had a neighbor like Switzerland

Turkey also has antagonistic neighbors and they have done quite all right. Bulgaria has been mistreating Turkish minority. Greece and Turkey have skirmishes. Cyprus does not accept Nothern Turkish Cyprus. Syria claims Hatay province from Turkey. Kurds have been fighting Turkish Army. Armenia has issue from WWI. Only Georgia and Iran have no problems with Turkey. Turkey has been more successful diplomatically.

 

[MilesTogo]

On Kashmir being disputed territory in UN and therefore is different than Baloch movement or other movements:

Where does Bangladesh fit in this argument?

 

[huzihaidao12]

From Hong Kong? I see. Pakistani friends may not know that most people in Hong Kongis a very love of the state, however, Hong Kong is a place full of spying, as colonial history. The Chinese government also promised to retain Hong Kong's all even espionage, foreign foundations that raise the dogs.

I doubt he is a fake Pakistani, which is full of foreign counterfeit Chinese networking, we are very clear, but Pakistan friend may not experience .

 

[huzihaidao12]

In ********************, you can see some Chinese members of the discussion, there are many facts. If the Pakistani friends still have questions, you can put to me.

Chinese believe that the "7.5" is a scar, pain, so generally we will not touch it. However, if some people want some of ulterior motives, then we can clearly explain this.

China Riots: All Discussion, News Etc Here. No More Threads - Pakistani Defence Forum

 

[jeypore]

well.. great going here... definitely through IPP, iran-pakistan relations can grow... when USA leaves afghanistan, pakistan can have more control over there and maybe can re-assert major influence... and when we have good relation with iran and turkey then saudi arabia has to make good relations with pakistan!!

I Like you, but the problem is, you have Lot of IF's!!!!!

You know what I mean, If is this, or If is that or even better If is When, or If is KNOW!!!

 

[azeemfslbd]

The resolution of these problems can happen when Pakistan genuinely moves towards a state with a bias towards long term stability- both towards itself as well as others. What do I mean:

a. Ignore Kashmir as a specific, that was just a strategy. Many policy makers in your system before thought that it was possible to solve the 'india problem' by breaking it into several pieces. Kashmir & Khalistan were only strategies to set off that process of disintegration. The fact of a larger unified Indian state was not accepted by them, but probably lot easier to accept as a realty by yur current leaders (therefore realistic movement towards resolution)

b. Even in Afghanistan, your attitude has been to behave like a superior power. Capable of 'giving them freedom from the Soviets', leveragng their soil for 'strategic depth' etc. Accept them as a true and sovereign state and over the long term you'll have a stable relationship.

My two cents.

hello Guynextdoor well for a.), many of Indian policymakers also have same goal for Pakistan, disintegration, e.g. Balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sindhudesh.... reports in Pakistani media of India helping separatists there are as much as Indian media saying that Pakistan supports Kashmir, Khalistan etc.... so it is not directly our fault (IF govt of Pakistan support Kashmir n Khalistan) it is actually a reaction to what India is doing in Pakistani territory !! in any case people in Pakistan n India want peace n hopefully in the future when maybe our governments have more sense there can be peace and Kashmir issue can be solved for better of Kashmiris.....

about b) the reason Pakistan needs influence over Afghanistan is because India may use it like what ISI suspects India is doing now, using Afghanistan to transport Taliban terrorists into Pakistan..... it is sovereign country but unfortunately until India stops using Afghanistan to grow terrorism against Pakistan we will have to have influence there or at least good relations with the govt..

 

[azeemfslbd]

You cannot decide a policy based on wether muslims are free to practice or not. Muslim in India are free to practice their religion and so are Kashmiris..so why are we fighting?? The Palestienans are also free to practice their religion too hence we shouldnt be supporting them either.


India is a traditional power and it will remain aligned with many countries due to its historical ties. India was not born on 1947 it had been in existence for thousand of years, it merely gained freedom from Brtish colonial rule where as we are a nation whose presense was nowhere to be found before 1947.

The Ughairs are staunchly anti-Pakistan and so are Tajiks, Afghans and Uzbeks due to soviet legacy. They will continue to side with India and we cant do anything about it to matter how much religion card we play. Pakistan is an idealogical country and its power lies in being a revolutionary. Someone who can stand as a proud model of Muslim achievements, science and technology. The Palestinenans are openly pro-India and probably the most staunch anti-Pakistan ever seen. We need to forget about them.

Our nation was carved out of existing land and people with new identity given the name of "Pakistan"


Turkey used to be a traditional power but doom of ottomans spell and end it to it. Modren day Turkey is a foundation laid by Mustafa Kemal. It would be absolutely ridicolus if Turkey countinues to brag about same ottoman era clout it once held among arabs and muslims.


As long we led the house of innovation, professionalism and achievements in the Islamic world we were able to contain our influence and take the course of events into our favour. However the world politics has changed but we refuse to acknowledge it. Today we are leading in nothing but growing terrorism which happens to come from madrassas gifted to us by our oil rich arab friends. These very people have sidelines themselves and busy building oasis in the dessert while we are left to clean their mess. Shame on us.


The Arabs have a long and strong releation with Indians which predates Islam and we cannot exert force to change it. Pakistan for them is just a disposable man power house.

We need to forget about arabs in our policy. We need to build ourselves strong enough to be able to exert influence on them rather begging them for aid. The Arabs do not need anything from us. We are being their dogs why awarding uneeded protection to their much hated royals families.
While these royal families can keep a face of favoured releations towards us and keep the aid flowing we are rapidly losing on the peoples power side. We are being seen as an incompetent tool which flocks to protection of their corrupt monarchies.

Unfortunately, when we take course of ummah type politics people naturally come to expect us shipping them arms for their freedom struggle. Unable to meet their expections proves us hypocrites in their eyes.

Our natrual alliances lies towards the west..not east.

Unfortunately for 60 years we have failed to take any lessong from history and continue to persue a hopeless ottoman-relic failed logic of "ummah politics" which is gradually turning us very "milltary" centric on the lines of north korea and failed soviet union.

Our power lies not in competing with India millitarily but being a small roboust nation with thriving economy, large representation in world scientific affairs, strong media presence, true democarcy and qualitive millitary edge over quantity which can deal a decisive blow to any offensive incursions.

Hello Somebozo thank you for ur response..i like ur ideas about "Ummah philosophy" maybe we can be backstabbed......especially by Arab countries, i agree.....

well i think Turkey is a role model for Pakistan cos they can mix religion and modern ideas together very well.... perhaps if Jinnah lived longer we might have been on the road of Turkey as he felt religion n modern ideas are both important....

about our allies being in the west... well... how much can we trust (for example) the USA?? we already see they are playing double games against china, they are making friendly relations with them n also at the same time they r giving taiwan weapons n we already know what mess USA is doing in our areas bordering to afghanistan with drones killing civilians.... yes they have helped us but im not sure we can trust them !! it seems that China is an ally as they have not done any harm to Pakistan (this contradict what I said earlier but here I am speaking from less religious viewpoint) perhaps we can look not only to Turkey China but also SE asia like malaysia indonesia thailand vietnam as these countries are also developing like us n they are modernizing quite quickly.....

and about India well both Pakistanis n India i think realize that peace is important if we want to be stronger..... i dont think it is far away n yes our "smart" politicians are focusing too much on india and not on growth of pakistan.....

 

[azeemfslbd]

Turkey also has antagonistic neighbors and they have done quite all right. Bulgaria has been mistreating Turkish minority. Greece and Turkey have skirmishes. Cyprus does not accept Nothern Turkish Cyprus. Syria claims Hatay province from Turkey. Kurds have been fighting Turkish Army. Armenia has issue from WWI. Only Georgia and Iran have no problems with Turkey. Turkey has been more successful diplomatically.

Yes Nahraf but maybe this is because they have a closer location to Europe and so they are able to make good relations with West Europe (not necessarily East Europe) because of their relations with USA n israel....Pakistan has... "good" (what word can even describe Pak-USA relations??) relations with USA but we cant benefit as much as Turkey from West Europe since we are so far away, e.g. economically and trade.....

 

[azeemfslbd]

Did Pakistan withdraw its support once it was clear what the Taliban had in mind?

Did Pakistan support the Northern Alliance when they began an uprising or did it arm and train the Taliban even further?

Pakistan supported the Taliban for one reason and one reason alone, to control Afghanistan by proxy. Stop beating around the bush.



Has Pakistan really come around to the idea of a neutral Afghanistan?

What exactly do you mean by 'days of old', an Afghanistan that has no relations with India or one that has economic and military cooperation with one of the largest economies in the region?

You see it all depends on how Pakistan defines a 'stable' Afghanistan. With India now in the picture, Pakistan will inevitably keep its options open with the Afghan Taliban. Which is why we see reports like this...

BBC News - Pakistani agents 'funding and training Afghan Taliban'

Pakistan can rubbish these claims all it wants on paper, what its really doing is opening up doors for India. We aren't the one's pursuing a 'zero sum' strategy, Pakistan is, the results of which are abundantly clear.

In any case, there's no point discussing this further as we've already been over this on several occasions. I'd just like to see the end result of this war and its impact on Afghanistan and US-Pakistani relations. The way I see it, India will win either way, be it Iran, Afghanistan (or both) or the US.

Yes it does when Pakistan uses those proxy groups as means to wage war and counter Indian interests in Kashmir and beyond.

n is it not true that India uses Afghanistan to transport terrorists into Pakistani territory ?? at least that is what the ISI has discovered n that is why Pakistan suspects Indian involvement in Afghanistan !!And is it also not true that India uses BLA, TTP and JSQM to fight Pakistani interests in Balochistan Pashtun areas and Sindh?? hmmm....

 

[azeemfslbd]

Name the wars in which Iran has helped India fight against Pakistan. Also state the anti-Pakistan or Pro-India UN resolutions voted on in favor by Iran. As you say have already read about it, you should be able to state exact clauses and examples.

Hi Pasban... I had read that from another thread I will try my best to find that thread and post the link here.... but from what I know in wars for example Afghan civil war and Afghan war (Pakistan govt supporting the USA) Iran n Pakistan were basically against each other.... Pakistan and Iran's Dysfunctional Relationship :: Middle East Quarterly this is also a good link for the problems in Pak-Iran relations

*EDIT*: if i am not able to find that thread/post, there are also points to consider for Iran-Pakistan relations like Iran criticizing Pakistan for terrorism in southern Iran n criticizing Pakistan for supporting Balochi militants in Iran

 

[amit27]

I have many good pakistani friends in UK, i think India and Pakistan should see and learn how in UK we all live together without problems.

 

[azeemfslbd]

On Kashmir being disputed territory in UN and therefore is different than Baloch movement or other movements:

Where does Bangladesh fit in this argument?

how is bangladesh involved here...? if you mean our relations with them they are improving to some extent..... if u mean that bangladesh is/was a disputed territory... well as Mehru said earlier Kashmir is a disputed territory while Xinjiang/Balochistan is more like part of China and Pakistan already officially, just with separatist movements.... same way Bangladesh was not disputed territory in 1971 because East Pakistan was officailly already part of Pakistan, just with separatist movements....

 

[jeypore]

I have many good pakistani friends in UK, i think India and Pakistan should see and learn how in UK we all live together without problems.

I think Catholic sould be the main religion in UK!!

 

[azeemfslbd]

From Hong Kong? I see. Pakistani friends may not know that most people in Hong Kongis a very love of the state, however, Hong Kong is a place full of spying, as colonial history. The Chinese government also promised to retain Hong Kong's all even espionage, foreign foundations that raise the dogs.

I doubt he is a fake Pakistani, which is full of foreign counterfeit Chinese networking, we are very clear, but Pakistan friend may not experience .

Hi HuiZhaiDao12, u r implying that i'm a spy and a fake Pakistani??? firstly I dont live in Hong Kong but I visit here quite often n now I'm here for summer vacations !! And because I say I would like to see Uighur independence I am a fake Pakistani?? My dear Chinese brother... you are Chinese, n you must like Dim Sums otherwise you are a fake Chinese.... see? everyone has their own opinion n if my opinion makes me a fake Pakistani than I m quite surprised !! To me China is a great ally of Pakistan because of your help and while we also support you on double front against India, I still think Uighurs can be treated better right?? that is my point of view, i just dont support violence against civilians/majority/minorirty !!

In ********************, you can see some Chinese members of the discussion, there are many facts. If the Pakistani friends still have questions, you can put to me.

Chinese believe that the "7.5" is a scar, pain, so generally we will not touch it. However, if some people want some of ulterior motives, then we can clearly explain this.

China Riots: All Discussion, News Etc Here. No More Threads - Pakistani Defence Forum

thanks for the link... #162 n #166 are exactly what I want to say !!

 

[azeemfslbd]

I have many good pakistani friends in UK, i think India and Pakistan should see and learn how in UK we all live together without problems.

well in Hong Kong also Pakistanis n Indians get along quite well...

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

I Like you, but the problem is, you have Lot of IF's!!!!!

You know what I mean, If is this, or If is that or even better If is When, or If is KNOW!!!

hehe well i m trying to examine what the possible things are that can happen in Pakistani foreign relations !!