Homes of Christians burnt

[Khalids]

But i disagree with your statement that the Madaris need reform, THEY DONT, Period. They are serving their purpose perfectly.

Yes, they don't need REFORM, and they are perfect. What sect's Madaris are you pointing to, bye the way? Because there should be only ONE perfect, not dozens of perfects, I suppose. So, you should name THE PERFECT Madrisa, please.

 

[EjazR]

Wrong comparison. Not sure if Hitler was a practicing Christian. At least he never used the Bible to justify genocide. His reasons for the genocides were racial and political, and not based on any particular religion. Hitler even targeted the church.

Actually, Hitler claimed to be a "devout" Catholic ( I say he was a deviant one). "Hitler's Religion," by Anne Nicol Gaylor
He often claimed he was doing the Lord and Jesus's work by removing Jews.

In Mein Kamf, he says after justifying from the Bible and spewing hatred against Jews on how they were responsible for killing Jesus Christ: Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work.

German bishops supported Hitler's invasion of Russia as a "Crusade" against godless communism. And furthermore, Hitler's puppet regime in serbia and croatia oppressed and exterminated the local serbs who were greek orthodox or asked them to convert to Catholicism.

Ofcourse, Catholics understandably don't want to claim Hitler. And they should'nt. Hitler represented a deviant interpretation, just as these "mullas" represent a deviant interpretation of Islam.

The moral of the story is politics+religion is no go area. Be it Political Christianity, Political Islam or Political Hinduism.

 

[EjazR]

^ @ muse, this isnt Islam, read below:

But i disagree with your statement that the Madaris need reform, THEY DONT, Period. They are serving their purpose perfectly. That is the preservation of the word of God.

Madaris should be reformed and developed as an ongoing process, but the reform should come from within and not imposed from outside who don't have understanding of what madrassas are. Particularly if its creating a culture of hate.

Moreover, there should be structural changes in the dars-e-nizami as it is about 300-400 years old and needs to take into account the current needs of the muslims related to modern developments.
Here is a blog run by deoband and nadwa-tul-uloom graduates. Although it is India specific, it can apply to south asia as well.
MADRASA REFORMS IN INDIA

 

[Righteous_Fire]

in the dars-e-nizami as it is about 300-400 years old

The Word of God deosnt change in a million years and more

As for the part that doesnt change with time (Islam) it doesnt need reform, dont fix something that isnt broken

As for the interpretation and implementation part ( which is a dynamic phenomenon) it does undergo reform by the Madaris Authority i.e. from within by the Wafaq-ul-Madaris

You should research on this subject rather than saying the Madaris dont reform they do and do so constantly, I'm afraid it is we the common folk who arent in touch with our times and our Deen. The protectors of the Deen know very well what they need to do

 

[EjazR]

The Word of God deosnt change in a million years and more

dars-e-nizami is not word of God. It was formed only in the 13th and 14th century. The word of God is only the Quran.

Dars-e-nizami is a system of education similar to the university syllabus. There is no harm in reforming it to bring it more inline with todays standards. This has been happening all over the world, including in KSA, Egypt and Turkey.

There are things like Islamic Finance and Banking, genetics and stem cell research and other developments that wasn't there before. All of these are vital for muslims in the 21st century and changes in dars-e-nizami to incorporate these develoments in the light of Quran and Hadith is not changing the word of God.
And this has been going on since the time of the sahaba where they interpreted new developments in their time with rationality. It is called Ijtehad

You should research on this subject rather than saying the Madaris dont reform they do and do so constantly,

I never said they don't reform. I quoted a link to a blog that explains just that. All I am saying is that a more inclusive and faster approach should be adopted for all madrassas on the same lines.

 

[Developereo]

The Word of God deosnt change in a million years and more

As for the part that doesnt change with time (Islam) it doesnt need reform, dont fix something that isnt broken

As for the interpretation and implementation part ( which is a dynamic phenomenon) it does undergo reform by the Madaris Authority i.e. from within by the Wafaq-ul-Madaris

You should research on this subject rather than saying the Madaris dont reform they do and do so constantly, I'm afraid it is we the common folk who arent in touch with our times and our Deen. The protectors of the Deen know very well what they need to do

Leaving aside the issue of Islam, the madrassas need reform to teach students about science and math. How do you think we will be able to compete in the global economy if we have an entire generation that doesn't know science and math?

 

[third eye]

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Negligence of officials blamed for Gojra riots

TOBA TEK SINGH: As the death toll in violence against the Christian community rose to seven, relatives of the victims blocked the Multan-Faisalabad section of the railway track for over six hours on Sunday by placing on the track the coffins of the people killed in Gojra on Saturday.

They protested against attacks on their houses and burning alive of seven members of their community by a mob.

Rangers patrolled the area as shops and businesses remained closed.

Violence had broken out in a Gojra village on Thursday after an alleged incident of desecration of the Holy Quran during a wedding ceremony.

The incident triggered two days of violence in which a mob torched a large number of houses, burning seven people alive.

On Sunday, talks were held between representatives of the protesters and Federal Textile Minister Rana Muhammad Farooq, Minorities’ Minister Shahbaz Bhatti and provincial ministers Kamran Michael, Haji Muhammad Ishaq, Raja Riaz Ahmad and Dost Muhammad Khosa to persuade leaders of the Christian community to end their protest.

During the talks, local leaders of the community said they would end their protest only after names of the DPO and DCO were included in the FIR of the case.

Addressing the protesters, Pakistan Minorities Democratic Alliance president Atif Jamil Pagaan accused some of their leaders of betraying the community. A group of youths jeered at Faisalabad’s Bishop Joseph Coute when he was addressing the protesters at the railway track.

The provincial in-charge of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, Mahboob Ahmad Khan, Labour Party leader Tariq Mahmood and dozens of rights activists from Lahore, including Nadeem Anthony, Waliur Rehman, Munawar Shahid, Iftikhar Butt and Atif Nadeem, were present during the protest.

The protesters ended the blockade of the track only when provincial minister Kamran Michael showed them a copy of an FIR naming the DCO and DPO (for negligence), 15 other people and 800 unidentified people for being involved in the killing of their men and damaging their property.

Later, final rites of the seven deceased were performed in a church on Samundri Road and the bodies were laid to rest in a local cemetery.

Meanwhile, Gojra city police have arrested more than 65 people for their alleged involvement in the violence.

The arrested men include Qari Abdul Khaliq Kashmiri, a leader of the banned Sipah-i-Sahaba Pakistan.

Police also raided the house of Sipah-i-Sahaba activist Abid Farooqi but he escaped and police took his father and two brothers into custody.

Agencies add: Local administration chief Tahir Hussain told reporters that Rangers had been deployed in the violence-hit areas who had arrested 12 suspects.

Three of the arrested people were from a banned sectarian group, he said.

Provincial Law Minister Rana Sanaullah, who visited the violence-hit town on Sunday, promised to pay compensation to the affected families.

‘We have identified those who attacked. They are terrorists, these people want to destabilise our country,’ he told reporters.

‘We will give compensation to the victims, we will pay them for all the losses they suffered,’ Mr Sanaullah said.

Local people and officials said the situation on Sunday morning was tense, but there was no unrest.

‘There is too much fear among the Christians,’ said provincial Minister for Minority Affairs Kamran Michael.

‘The situation is tense in the city, but security has been enhanced to keep the situation under control.’

Sohail Iqbal, a cellphone shop owner in the city’s main market, told The Associated Press by phone that there was a heavy police presence in the area.

‘We have opened our shop and others too, but the atmosphere is grim and tense,’ he said.

Federal Minister for Minorities Shahbaz Bhatti said 40 Christian homes had been torched on Saturday by the banned Sipah-i-Sahaba group, which is accused of attacking security forces and of staging bombings at public places in recent years. He said there was no truth to allegations that the Holy Quran had been defiled and accused the police of ignoring his appeal to provide protection to Christians under threat.

In a statement released on Sunday, Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini denounced the violence against Christians as ‘a very grave and unjustifiable attack against human rights and in particular against the inalienable right to religious freedom’.

 

[Fracker]

Desecration of Holy Qura’an

TOBA TEK SINGH: Dozens of houses of the Christian community were set on fire on Friday by provoked villagers in Azafi Basti, Chak 95/JB, Gahri, situated on the Gojra-Faisalabad Road, over alleged desecration of the Holy Qura’an by three persons.

The incident of desecration allegedly took place at a Mehndi and wedding ceremonies of a Christian family. Three persons, Mukhtar Masih, Talib Masih and his son Imran Masih, showered papers on the participants on which Quranic verses were allegedly written, along with currency notes, to express jubilation on the occasion.

When the news reached the Muslims of the village, they held a meeting, where the accused Talib Masih refused to seek pardon from the Muslim community. This provoked the Muslims and hundreds of people attacked the Azafi Basti, populated by Christians.

Different newspaper reportedly differently, but can you deny that some ch. or some higher person could have used the blasphemy thing just to provoke muslims for some hidden agendA?

 

[Developereo]

Different newspaper reportedly differently, but can you deny that some ch. or some higher person could have used the blasphemy thing just to provoke muslims for some hidden agendA?

Regardless of what any christian did or did not do, the solution was not to form a mob and burn down their houses and kill eight people.

 

[Righteous_Fire]

the madrassas need reform to teach students about science and math

Madaris, Madaris what do you think the madaris were created for? to study Theoretical Physics? or Inferential Statistics? They do teach Science and Math as much as is needed for the requirements of Primary and High Schools. After that they shouldnt because they are Madaris You have heard of the Dars e Nizami but you dont know what it includes its a super speciality field Would you expect from a Medical Doctor to have to learn about Chemistry and Physics on that advanced scale? No.

How do you think we will be able to compete in the global economy

Yeah Right! like the Universities intended to do just that in our country are contributing. Sadly, these words:

How do you think we will be able to compete in the global economy

are just a cliche used and abused over and over again by liberal people not accustomed with the real life in Pakistan around them. Its just what they are accustomed to use in discussions like these. The Madaris are not supposed to compete for you in the Global Economy!! Do you think the Vatican ( a complete state with its own territorial borders) works its bottom off for surplus GDP??

have an entire generation that doesn't know science and math?

And What about our BSc and MSc students of these subjects? their level of education is deploring and sad. Have you heard of a single student of these Universities who has produced a product or innovation that can compete for us in the Global economy? No. Unlike the Indians who are very good at it.

Again, it is what we dont know that is the problem. Do a few searches, as for example do these:

1) Take the Federal Board of SSC and Intermediate, check out who the top position holders for the last few years have been?

2) The only group that is using astronomical data for crescent sightings is a Madrassah, google it, they are doing it with the Karachi University's Astronomy Deptt.

3) How many Madaris now have a computer lab? as compared to Govt. Schools?

..............I could go on and on.........

---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

Though it would be better if we stay on topic!

 

[Meesna]

Urdu: Daily UrduPoint.com . Urdu News from Pakistan, Important News of Date 03-08-2009

President of Muslim League Nawaz Gojra along with local police and civil administration nominated in the FIR. If all things are considered, Muslim League Nawaz was involved in this incident and are only shedding alligator tears on the incident once it has come to pass.

 

[Fracker]

Regardless of what any christian did or did not do, the solution was not to form a mob and burn down their houses and kill eight people.

Read my 1st post, I said this step was wrong!! no civilian has the right to take law in the hands what so ever. We see we have in law to hang the one. but public don't go forward in finding the culprit and hang him in public. But let police to do this job, similarly others laws. But when it comes to blasphemy, public get angry and take law in their hands. & media start pointing at the pakistani law about blasphemy act. To me, it clearly show that, the one who take law in his hand is not real public but criminals who are used by some groups (could be mullah, ch., wadera etc) BUT media don't point on those "titling people" But just start saying "Muslims start doing this i.e. burnt the house and 7 people alive!!" & a discussion starts, who is responsible for this? Islamist, extremists and Islamic law or pakistani Blasphemy act etc? without looking at the "Real facts" or "Real purpose". If you are a real muslims, then you will never take Law in your hand, since you aren't responsible for giving punishments, but state/law is!! You have to just provide the evidences, complains etc & let state decide what to do with the culprit.

Getting my point, now?

 

[Developereo]

Read my 1st post, I said this step was wrong!! no civilian has the right to take law in the hands what so ever. We see we have in law to hang the one. but public don't go forward in finding the culprit and hang him in public. But let police to do this job, similarly others laws. But when it comes to blasphemy, public get angry and take law in their hands. & media start pointing at the pakistani law about blasphemy act. To me, it clearly show that, the one who take law in his hand is not real public but criminals who are used by some groups (could be mullah, ch., wadera etc) BUT media don't point on those "titling people" But just start saying "Muslims start doing this i.e. burnt the house and 7 people alive!!" & a discussion starts, who is responsible for this? Islamist, extremists and Islamic law or pakistani Blasphemy act etc? without looking at the "Real facts" or "Real purpose". If you are a real muslims, then you will never take Law in your hand, since you aren't responsible for giving punishments, but state/law is!! You have to just provide the evidences, complains etc & let state decide what to do with the culprit.

Getting my point, now?

Good point.

The problem is many of our firebrand mullahs don't preach this message.

We need to make sure our mullahs preach about respecting law and order. How much easier it would make the police's job if the mullahs cooperate!

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Good point.

The problem is many of our firebrand mullahs don't preach this message.

We need to make sure our mullahs preach about respecting law and order. How much easier it would make the police's job if the mullahs cooperate!

^ I agree Developereo Thats the basic point of it all

 

[muse]

We need to make sure our mullahs preach about respecting law and order. How much easier it would make the police's job if the mullahs cooperate!

Two problems with this:

1. It's not part of the religiosity of the Mullah to preach law and order, don't you know that a good Muslim is a Muslim who protests in the streets and is convinced by conspiracy theories?

2. The political game in Pakistan is essential the same game that the Mullah plays - it about total power, not laws, rules or order, it's about vengance and terrorizing the populace.

We have to be more realistic about the kindof Islam that is motivating these people, we have to be realistic about who these people are - one cannot have a society that is tolerant and clergy and the Islam they preach as intolerant, there is just something worng with that formulation - Pakistan is a largely intolerant society, if only because vast majorities simply are apathetic.