Holbrooke sees Pakistan as the problem!

[Hellfire]

another world war on it's way

now this is original

No not a world war but a conflict between pk and U.S is plausible but then India might attack us too to support the U.S and then China might intervene maybe here will be a WW3.

talk about delusions!!!

a. Neither US nor India are interested in attacking Pakistan for my oft repeated reasons - PA is last line of defence before mayhem breaks out. Neither nation is nuts to not recognise this fact and contribution that PA can make in achieving victory (if they want).

b. Neither will China come in between. East Turkestan problem is grim for them too. They have whole western china to loose if taliban is seen to be succeeding.

c. I agree with Darkstar, no chance of Pakistan breaking up. But in remotest case also even if it does, then there is whole of NATO (prominently France, Germany,UK) US, Russia, Iran, India, Russia and others willing to put troops on ground. Free nukes in hands of crazies is enough to ensure that. In that scenario even chinese wont mind contributing. They wont really take it nicely if one nuke was set off in Beijing by these nutties!

some responsible posting will be really appreciated

 

[Hellfire]

S2........just kidding!


I'm sorry if you do not share the view.....Most of the casualties suffered by the Afghans have been civilians perpetrated by US forces....its the same in neigbouring Pakistan....you kill one terrorist and kill 10 bystanders....what do you get???....ten more terrorist.....thus this DUMB strategy has caused the US + NATO forces 7 years + of conflict..........which is forcasted to last maybe another 10-15 years pending results achieved!!!

...you said...It looks to me as though you suffer from hyperbolic stupidity......on the contrary it SEEMS THAT YOU SUFFER FROM ACUTE ARROGANCE SYNDROME.......Stop getting your information from the media such as 'Fox news' or their likewise media outlets!!!

THe reality is......the WOT is causing unnecessary LIVES os US servicemen and Afghan civilians....its a very COSTLY War.....A logistical nightmare...a conflict of ATTRITION.....and one that will suck it into further hole....WHERE IT WILL BE HARDER TO DIG OUT.

By the way, I'm serving personnel within NATO......I'm giving you statements and facts that the governments do not want to hear.......ITS GOING TO BE A LONG UNWINNABLE WAR...........unless we talk/negotiate and be sincere to this region!!!

I am sure that if you are serving (now where exactly are you serving and in what arm? for I suspect you are far away from Afghanistan and not there) you appreciate how insurgencies are fought .... its always a long drawn out effort which is coupled with slow phases when you see nothing noteworthy is being achieved. Yet this is the period where your resolution and will to succeed is tested and your determination carries the day.

Collateral damage is always there in terms of higher rate of casualties amongst the population. This is a fact facing even the Indian army, which is now 60 plus years into the same in Manipur-Nagaland region and 20 years plus in Jammu & Kashmir.

Strange such an assessment coming out from a per deployed in active duty (?)

 

[duhastmish]

^^^^^ you said it perfectly hell fire.
The issue is , right now india is not worried about pakistan with nuke, we are infact worried about nuke with taliban. and to the extent that india: Have started accepting pakistan can handle its nukes. perfectly and india see not much danger of nuke war as in near future.
So an unstable pakistan will be just simply a nightmare for india.
------
as for american and india attqacking pakistan - Rest of the world is not sleeping. and none of these country have anything to gain from a war with pakistan. specifically india. us have a big distance with pakistan so they save their skin but india will be right in their range.
rather i see indian side to - support pakistan in case of war ( hypothetical ) war with united states. Since it will only hurt us more than americans.

 

[Hellfire]

Darkstar......I'm not talking about bravado....I DETEST WAR as it brings the inhumanity in mankind.....my point is the conflict in this region has been iniated by the US (again due to the various rightwing lobbies)...the conflict will only be resolved through a political situation.....and only when all parties are sincere......by the way what am i spreading???....I'm giving you a view that most people would like to brush away.

...the scheme of ****** is basically to disable/weaken or dismantle this area........if you cannot see this......then just watch as history will repeat!!!

you dismantle something that exists .... what exactly exists there? apart from craters and trenches of over 30 years of strife?

political situation? what political situation? more like radical religious acceptance ..... what you are fighting is not a political movement or ideology .... what you are fighting in afghanistan is a force out to impose its own draconinan interpretation of Islam on the masses and twist it all the more to achieve its aim of domination of a region where it can safely exapnd to spread more into nations which have absolutely nothing more to do with it than simply exist on face of earth. You are fighting those who say there is no need for science/electricity/education/economics/progress/social system .... they want an era where we will all be roaming in loin cloth, offerring our women/sisters/daughters to them as thanks for "salvaging our souls" and offerring our lives just to entertain them ....... resign sir if you have no faith in what you are doing .....

 

[XYON]

^^^^^ you said it perfectly hell fire.
The issue is , right now india is not worried about pakistan with nuke, we are infact worried about nuke with taliban. and to the extent that india: Have started accepting pakistan can handle its nukes. perfectly and india see not much danger of nuke war as in near future.
So an unstable pakistan will be just simply a nightmare for india.
------
as for american and india attqacking pakistan - Rest of the world is not sleeping. and none of these country have anything to gain from a war with pakistan. specifically india. us have a big distance with pakistan so they save their skin but india will be right in their range.
rather i see indian side to - support pakistan in case of war ( hypothetical ) war with united states. Since it will only hurt us more than americans.

Yeah! ........... and they lived happily ever after. THE END

Your comments on the security of our nukes wreaks heavily on your ignorance about the C&C system they are under. The only way the fantasy above could come true would be if OBL becomes the PM of Pakistan and Baitullah Mehsud chairs the Nuclear C&C Authority Until that time...our nukes getting into extremist hands is as real as your Hindu Mythology!

 

[Hellfire]

Yeah! ........... and they lived happily ever after. THE END

Your comments on the security of our nukes wreaks heavily on your ignorance about the C&C system they are under. The only way the fantasy above could come true would be if OBL becomes the PM of Pakistan and Baitullah Mehsud chairs the Nuclear C&C Authority Until that time...our nukes getting into extremist hands is as real as your Hindu Mythology!

come on epool ... why the thing about Hindu ideology? you really dont want to go into that area and loose credence .... do you? there are lot of points one can raise about christianity and islam too .... grotesque and unpalatable ..... lets not get into that please

I agree with you on C&C aspects.

Only worry right now is that there are sympathies for the gentle men mentioned in rural pakistan (from where like india the common soldier omes) which leads to certain scare in certain quarters of what ifsss........

 

[duhastmish]

Yeah! ........... and they lived happily ever after. THE END

Your comments on the security of our nukes wreaks heavily on your ignorance about the C&C system they are under. The only way the fantasy above could come true would be if OBL becomes the PM of Pakistan and Baitullah Mehsud chairs the Nuclear C&C Authority Until that time...our nukes getting into extremist hands is as real as your Hindu Mythology!

Dude sir,
i said this not about my self - but - a normal indian point of view, ( SIMILER TO A AMERICAN OR WESTERN POINT OF VIEW) which because of ignorance/myth created by media. is unaware of - c&c system. and capability of pakistan to safe agurd its nuke.
I on personal level think pakistani nuke are under safe hands for now. and i hope to see it continuing in future as well.
THIS has started a wave of - fear among the world.
So brother Please read it in - and dont pin point your POST ATTACK. lol

And this happy lived ever after theory - i dont see it happy lived ever after. what i said there was diplomatic way of dealing with things. If pakistan over come taliban issue tomorrow ( even if india help genuinely) it nowhere solve the Kashmir issue it will be right there. for ever. hence the political tension remains.

- as for Hindu mythology - mythology - means body of myths associated with an event, individual, or institution. dont bring any religion here to start hate. so i hope you undertsand mythology are every where - from hindu to buddism to christianity to islam to taoism to zoroastrianism.
i hope you motive was not to ignite hate.

 

[IceCold]

I'm not living in denial. Bangladesh happened, because we were 1000 milies apart.

The threats we face today are not seperatist in nature, but an ideology that is espoused by people that seek to gain power at the centre.

We and our agencies have tried as best we can, with our meagre resources, to give some sort of fitting reply to '71, and we certainly have seen some success, considering the praises our ISI gets from our eastern neighbours.

Whenever Pakistan faces some sort of problem, people come with the same old cliched phrases that I referred to above.

Whether a foreign power decides to invade Pakistan or not is another matter.

However, the balkanisation of Pakistan presented as a theory by some Pakistani armchair analysts, is ignorant of strategic reality, an affront to reason, and a dangerous and wholely irresponsible suggestion to make.

You can come up with all the excuses in the world you may find, reality is we lost and were separated/broken what ever you may want to call it or whatever suits the flavor. That is the reality.
As for the ISI it is hardly praised as you may want to call it, rather more so criticized, a propaganda launched against it in order to dismantle it. The plan for balkanisation for Pakistan has already being laid, to clear things a bit further just see the number of Indian consulates in Afghanistan, so when one say that if we did not set our priorities straight, God for bid Pakistan is at stake and we might have to pay a heavy price, that does not make him/her an arms chair analyst, with keeping the past in view he/she is very much justified in making such analysis.
People are neither fools nor stupid, even a subzi foresh on the street in Lahore understands whats happening and who's gaining what out of it, its not some sort of rocket science for one to not understand, all you need is a pair of eyes to look and realize what's really happening all around you, from the propaganda about nuclear getting into the hands of terrorists to Pakistan being an international migraine and people such as Holbrooke seeing Pakistan as the problem, Indian consulates in Afghanistan and Karzai the loud mouth spiting venom against Pakistan all the time, where do you think all these things point too.

 

[XYON]

come on epool ... why the thing about Hindu ideology? you really dont want to go into that area and loose credence .... do you? there are lot of points one can raise about christianity and islam too .... grotesque and unpalatable ..... lets not get into that please

I agree with you on C&C aspects.

Only worry right now is that there are sympathies for the gentle men mentioned in rural pakistan (from where like india the common soldier omes) which leads to certain scare in certain quarters of what ifsss........

My friend when was the last time you were in rural Pakistan and where? That is my point; do not believe somethings to be true just because the boob tube says so! 99.99% of Pakistan rural areas are still far far away from the influence of the extremists. At this speed; it would be at least 200 years before and if these buggers get into power in Pakistan. Since that is beyond yours and my lifetime. Why really make it an intentional issue?

 

[XYON]

Dude sir,
i said this not about my self - but - a normal indian point of view, ( SIMILER TO A AMERICAN OR WESTERN POINT OF VIEW) which because of ignorance/myth created by media. is unaware of - c&c system. and capability of pakistan to safe agurd its nuke.
I on personal level think pakistani nuke are under safe hands for now. and i hope to see it continuing in future as well.
THIS has started a wave of - fear among the world.
So brother Please read it in - and dont pin point your POST ATTACK. lol

And this happy lived ever after theory - i dont see it happy lived ever after. what i said there was diplomatic way of dealing with things. If pakistan over come taliban issue tomorrow ( even if india help genuinely) it nowhere solve the Kashmir issue it will be right there. for ever. hence the political tension remains.

- as for Hindu mythology - mythology - means body of myths associated with an event, individual, or institution. dont bring any religion here to start hate. so i hope you undertsand mythology are every where - from hindu to buddism to christianity to islam to taoism to zoroastrianism.
i hope you motive was not to ignite hate.

See this is what you call a CATCH 22 situation; if I answer you frankly you will think I am provoking hate; If I do not answer, you'd still have doubts about my intention. So I'd rather leave it at that!

 

[Hellfire]

My friend when was the last time you were in rural Pakistan and where? That is my point; do not believe somethings to be true just because the boob tube says so! 99.99% of Pakistan rural areas are still far far away from the influence of the extremists. At this speed; it would be at least 200 years before and if these buggers get into power in Pakistan. Since that is beyond yours and my lifetime. Why really make it an intentional issue?

ah never had the pleasure of visiting Pakistan, although certainly hope to do so soon ..... only need someone to visit and an invitation for the same to reassure Pakistani authorities am not RAW agent

maybe you will help me understand this:

DailyMuslims - Pakistani Soldiers Surrender to Taliban, 48 Released Soldiers Confirm

and no I dont think the spread will take that long ... it may take more if PA has the courage to take the hard decisions and less if it does not ......

 

[XYON]

ah never had the pleasure of visiting Pakistan, although certainly hope to do so soon ..... only need someone to visit and an invitation for the same to reassure Pakistani authorities am not RAW agent

maybe you will help me understand this:

DailyMuslims - Pakistani Soldiers Surrender to Taliban, 48 Released Soldiers Confirm

and no I dont think the spread will take that long ... it may take more if PA has the courage to take the hard decisions and less if it does not ......

What you have quoted above is a one off incident of military indiscipline that has long been dealt with. Ever since no other incident of this nature has taken place. Putting too much credence into it is misleading. By no means this incident is either a yardstick nor a standard of how things are in Pakistan. Using your logic; I can find hundreds and thousands of incidents in India for that matter (Muslim Riots, Christian Killings at the hands of Hindu zealots; bombings in Assam etc etc) to establish with authority that India is nothing but a puddle of Hindu extremism!! OR maybe with the recent shootings in the US establish that US is becoming a dangerous place as every one shoots everyone else! My suggestion to you is to be more open-minded and realistic before giving statements or quoting incidents that have no bearing on our national direction.

P.S - Will you send me an invite if I want to come to India? Maybe RAW would be more forgiving in not considering me to be an ISI spook then the other way around?

 

[Hellfire]

epool sir

What you have quoted above is a one off incident of military indiscipline that has long been dealt with. Ever since no other incident of this nature has taken place. Putting too much credence into it is misleading. By no means this incident is either a yardstick nor a standard of how things are in Pakistan. Using your logic; I can find hundreds and thousands of incidents in India for that matter (Muslim Riots, Christian Killings at the hands of Hindu zealots; bombings in Assam etc etc) to establish with authority that India is nothing but a puddle of Hindu extremism!! OR maybe with the recent shootings in the US establish that US is becoming a dangerous place as every one shoots everyone else! My suggestion to you is to be more open-minded and realistic before giving statements or quoting incidents that have no bearing on our national direction.

I agree. open mind is a must and so I do keep it as such ..... if you were to take the trouble to see my posts, am quite open


P.S - Will you send me an invite if I want to come to India? Maybe RAW would be more forgiving in not considering me to be an ISI spook then the other way around?

oh definitely you can drop in .... and my assurance you will not be treated as ISI even if you are and we can take a road trip from Jammu to Leh to make sure it is so ..... its beautiful

I am quite trusted you see

 

[XYON]

epool sir

What you have quoted above is a one off incident of military indiscipline that has long been dealt with. Ever since no other incident of this nature has taken place. Putting too much credence into it is misleading. By no means this incident is either a yardstick nor a standard of how things are in Pakistan. Using your logic; I can find hundreds and thousands of incidents in India for that matter (Muslim Riots, Christian Killings at the hands of Hindu zealots; bombings in Assam etc etc) to establish with authority that India is nothing but a puddle of Hindu extremism!! OR maybe with the recent shootings in the US establish that US is becoming a dangerous place as every one shoots everyone else! My suggestion to you is to be more open-minded and realistic before giving statements or quoting incidents that have no bearing on our national direction.

I agree. open mind is a must and so I do keep it as such ..... if you were to take the trouble to see my posts, am quite open


P.S - Will you send me an invite if I want to come to India? Maybe RAW would be more forgiving in not considering me to be an ISI spook then the other way around?

oh definitely you can drop in .... and my assurance you will not be treated as ISI even if you are and we can take a road trip from Jammu to Leh to make sure it is so ..... its beautiful

I am quite trusted you see

Oh Damn! My 'deep cover' is now blown

Alright! since I already know who you actually are and where you live, I'll pick you up in a few weeks and we will drive down in occupied Kashmir as you have suggested; I have to take notes on where your sensitive posts in that area are anyways, why not do it with an Indian 'open minded' friend! I hope you like Kashmiri Gushtaba though!

 

[Hellfire]

Oh Damn! My 'deep cover' is now blown

Alright! since I already know who you actually are and where you live, I'll pick you up in a few weeks and we will drive down in occupied Kashmir as you have suggested; I have to take notes on where your sensitive posts in that area are anyways, why not do it with an Indian 'open minded' friend! I hope you like Kashmiri Gushtaba though!

And then RAW does it again ..... I blew your cover



now that we have blown each others cover in the forum .... we can take a vacation and really enjoy the Kashmiri delicacies which ...... I cant resist .... enroute you are welcome to take as many notes as you want on the posts ... they are every few kms in location so get along a real fat ledger