Holbrooke dismisses chances of Musharraf comeback

[muse]

Yes I'm a big fan - and Musharraf doesn't speak about a lot of things, because perhaps they don't need to be spoken of in public -

Inside job? Al-Qaida? Maybe we should keep our powder dry on this, time will tell.

 

[graphican]

Musharraf will Inshallah be the next leader of Pakistan, therez huge support for him in Pakistan. His era was the best in each & every field Pakistan was booming. Hope he come back & won the election.

I understand many people in PDF like to vote for Musharaf and they have their reasons. I have a question from his fans and want simple answer for that.

Were his following actions productive? We do not look at right or wrong but proved good for Pakistan or not.

1 - Musharaf's Afghan Policy.
2 - Musharaf's Kashmir Policy.
3 - Trickle Down effect and Credit Driven Economy.
4 - Underhand dealings with PPP and NRO.
5 - Juducial Operations.
6 - Handeling of Civil Society and Media.

Also - I want to know 5 milestones that Pakistan achieved during his era.

 

[building7]

I understand many people in PDF like to vote for Musharaf and they have their reasons. I have a question from his fans and want simple answer for that.

Were his following actions productive? We do not look at right or wrong but proved good for Pakistan or not.

1 - Musharaf's Afghan Policy.
2 - Musharaf's Kashmir Policy.
3 - Trickle Down effect and Credit Driven Economy.
4 - Underhand dealings with PPP and NRO.
5 - Juducial Operations.
6 - Handeling of Civil Society and Media.

Also - I want to know 5 milestones that Pakistan achieved during his era.

mush is a sell out simple as that through his leadership we got to kiss *** thanks to mush our leadership got to look down ?


http://criticalppp.com/wp-content/u...88404417_100000832604151_218664_4474636_n.jpg

 

[VCheng]

Indeed, perhaps it's naive - but I would submit that it is a expectation that the Pakistani nation does hold and one it is not about to let go - However, naive or not misses the point, only the US is to blame for the failure of US policies.

Had US policy not been one of duplicity and was one in which the Pakistani state had assurance that it's interests would be supported and furthered, today, we would not be lamenting the failure of US policies.

As much I love Pakistan, I am afraid that having "expectations", no matter how justified they may seem to be to the population at large, is never a consideration for US policies, only its national interests. Blaming the US for any perception of failed policies is just that: blame and perception, and these will get Pakistan nothing.

Due to this fact, even if every sort of assurance had been provided to Pakistan to protect her interests, a change in the US national interests would have turned those assurances over in no time at all. Like it or not, India has succeeded, fairly or unfairly, in making its case sufficiently well to sway US policy in its favor for the time being.

Not to go off on a tangent, but India will find in due course that this presently favorable alignment will pose its own set of compromises and costs to her long term goals too, but that can be discussed elsewhere at length later.

Lamenting US policies in Afghanistan and Pakistan is one thing, but it is not likely to be effective, since recent US actions have clearly shown that Pakistan will get squeezed between India and the USA harder and harder until the desired national interests have been achieved.

How hard and long this pressure takes to achieve its objectives is still not clear, but Pakistan certainly has its work cut out for it and then some. Given our recent record of economic hardships and continued political infighting, this very hard work may very well turn out to be nearly impossible for the state of Pakistan.

I apologize if my forthrightness causes any grief.

 

[building7]

Yes I'm a big fan - and Musharraf doesn't speak about a lot of things, because perhaps they don't need to be spoken of in public -

Inside job? Al-Qaida? Maybe we should keep our powder dry on this, time will tell.

its shocking when so much proof is out there and you still want to say its alquida ,you keep dreaming .

 

[muse]

I am afraid that having "expectations", no matter how justified they may seem to be to the population at large, is never a consideration for US policies, only its national interests. Blaming the US for any perception of failed policies is just that: blame and perception, and these will get Pakistan nothing

That's cleaver by half and just plain wrong, a wrong characterization both of interests and the justification of policy - you are in effect proposing that US policy is like the writer who upon finding that the market of readers, rejects the writer's work, does not endeavor to produce what the market of readers appreciates, but instead seeks to punish his potential readers for no appreciating his writing skills.

See, not just US policy, not just US interests - but any policy and any interests of any government, must meet the approval of those it is intended towards.

Indeed your suggestion that somehow US policy has come from Sinai and that it's interest have been formulated in Sinai (Burning Bush - as in not amenable to change) is a rather disappointing articulation, it suggests that you have not given much thought to the notion that policy's purpose is to produce required/desired results - when it fails to meet approval, it cannot produce desired results - you follow?

And therefore like the writer in our example above, it is what the writer produces that must change, not his potential readers.

 

[BATMAN]

As much I love Pakistan, ....

And this is what you wrote yesterday when I asked you to give advise to Pakistani Nation.

LOL! I was just being facetious there.

Seriously though, it is not my job anymore to help the Pakistani nation. My family and I have done enough already, much of it futile. I have now sworn allegiance to my new home, and all my loyalties lie here now, because this is where my future lies.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1273270-post29.html

Not limited to this you LOL at me and you ridiculed me, in the same thread.

By passage of time I have accumulated >5k posts and (thank god) not in single post I LOL....not even at Indians.

My request to Pakistani members... if you are not in position to do some thing for Pakistan than please raise your children with cultured values, it will be a big contribution towards your kids, Pakistan and me as well because every Pakistani is my family.

 

[BATMAN]

I understand many people in PDF like to vote for Musharaf and they have their reasons. I have a question from his fans and want simple answer for that.

Were his following actions productive? We do not look at right or wrong but proved good for Pakistan or not.

1 - Musharaf's Afghan Policy.
2 - Musharaf's Kashmir Policy.
3 - Trickle Down effect and Credit Driven Economy.
4 - Underhand dealings with PPP and NRO.
5 - Juducial Operations.
6 - Handeling of Civil Society and Media.

Also - I want to know 5 milestones that Pakistan achieved during his era.

Graphican, i have great deal of respect for the man you had in your avatar, perhaps this respect kept me cool.

All your questions are nonsense.
Musharraf's gave new life to this nation and his young plants will continue to grow even he gone and will continue to bear fruit for generations to come.
Every thing you see around is gift of Musharraf.

 

[VCheng]

That's cleaver by half and just plain wrong, a wrong characterization both of interests and the justification of policy - you are in effect proposing that US policy is like the writer who upon finding that the market of readers, rejects the writer's work, does not endeavor to produce what the market of readers appreciates, but instead seeks to punish his potential readers for no appreciating his writing skills.

See, not just US policy, not just US interests - but any policy and any interests of any government, must meet the approval of those it is intended towards.

Indeed your suggestion that somehow US policy has come from Sinai and that it's interest have been formulated in Sinai (Burning Bush - as in not amenable to change) is a rather disappointing articulation, it suggests that you have not given much thought to the notion that policy's purpose is to produce required/desired results - when it fails to meet approval, it cannot produce desired results - you follow?

And therefore like the writer in our example above, it is what the writer produces that must change, not his potential readers.

I follow your reasoning, but let me point out the flaw in your analogy: A writer's public reads his/her works by choice, which is a luxury that Pakistan no longer can afford.

When the choices are either "with the USA or against the USA", then the outcome is exactly what we are seeing now.

If you appreciate my point: what you are perceiving as a failure of US policy could very well be the desired outcome that is sought. If you find that tortuous and perplexing now, just wait until the end game evolves over the next few years.

 

[VCheng]

And this is what you wrote yesterday when I asked you to give advise to Pakistani Nation.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/1273270-post29.html

Not limited to this you LOL at me and you ridiculed me, in the same thread.

By passage of time I have accumulated >5k posts and (thank god) not in single post I LOL....not even at Indians.

My request to Pakistani members... if you are not in position to do some thing for Pakistan than please raise your children with cultured values, it will be a big contribution towards your kids, Pakistan and me as well because every Pakistani is my family.

Please do not take my excerpts out of context, as the conclusions will be erroneous.

I was LOL'ed at my facetiousness, not you. And my comments about both Pakistan and USA are true: I love Pakistan as the land of my birth, and also the USA, as my new home.

Surely these two things are not mutually exclusive. Please note that this will be the last time I defend myself regarding this matter.

 

[building7]

its so easy to put a pak green flag on to your name vchen what sort of name is that witchen you rep ?

 

[VCheng]

its so easy to put a pak green flag on to your name vchen what sort of name is that witchen you rep ?

My identity and my credentials are very well known to those at PDF who needed to know, and are not the subject of this thread.

Please be assured that both flags are correct, and my handle makes perfect sense too, not that handles are supposed to make any sense at all!

 

[building7]

so who you rep becouse all your posts are pro usa witchen ?

 

[VCheng]

so who you rep becouse all your posts are pro usa witchen ?

I evaluate each issue and situation on its merits, placing truth above taking sides. You may find that concept novel, but please try it sometime. It is quite liberating.

 

[muse]

When the choices are either "with the USA or against the USA", then the outcome is exactly what we are seeing now

Precisely and therefore the failure of policy - whether Iraq, where the US's adversary Iran is now king maker, Afghanistan, where, well, what's there to say that we are all not aware of and of course Pakistan, where US policy is widely rejected.