history question Rome - Persia

[Anaoshak]

I would only say that both Romans and Persians have used Arabs as insurgents against each other to bring down the other.

But prophet muhammad (s.a.w) had united all the Arabs under the umbrella of Islam to bring down both those empires.

Europeans and Iranians have not yet learnt anything from their past mistakes and continue to support the cause of the Arabs.

And what happened to the Muslim empire? The same thing that happens to all empires.

I don't think Arab burned any books from Persia the first Arab conquerer weren't like these savages we see today but I'd say many of those books moved with people who preferred to move to another countries those days like India.
Don't forget many Persians brought their education systems their knowledge to the Arab in Iraq for example.

I can't now have some examples but the fact the Persians lead the Islamic nation in academic studies tell us that their books were the reference for them those days.

Unfortunately It's true. If you read history, It'll describe the burning of libraries, books etc.
For example, Al-Tabari wrote that the Arab Commander Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph Umar asking what should be done with the books at Ctesiphon. Umar wrote back: "If the books contradict the Qur'an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed, as for us Qur'an is sufficient." The huge library was destroyed and the books, the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were thrown into fire or the Euphrates. And same thing happened to other libraries such as the library of Rayy later on, also Temples were destroyed/or converted into mosques etc. Scholars were killed and so on and so forth.
Now, one could say "those are Islamophobic" views. And they probably would have been justly called that, If it wasn't written down by the muslims/arabs themselves both in history books as well as in hadiths. And this isn't limited to the Persian Empire only, for example Abd'l Latif of Baghdad states that the library of Alexandria was destroyed by Amr, by the order of Caliph Umar.

Keep in mind that most Arabs today, Are people who have been "arabized". Most of them weren't Arabs back then.

What you see today, being done to Hatra, Nimrud, to the temples of Palmyra and etc by certain groups in Iraq and Syria, It's a very similar pattern to what was done back then. Cultural genocide/cleansing.

 

[New]

Durant Is Known Islamophobe and Not A Historian At All.

A concrete evident and proof to disparage and discredit one of the most prominent historians of all times, and the writer of more than hundreds of thousands of historical pages of document by a brave internet lecturer.
Real world ain't about wishes or cheap talks my friend.

I don't think Arab burned any books from Persia the first Arab conquerer weren't like these savages we see today but I'd say many of those books moved with people who preferred to move to another countries those days like India.
Don't forget many Persians brought their education systems their knowledge to the Arab in Iraq for example.

Dear my friend, it's not about how I think or you think, it's all about trusting the available documents, if you start to reject the thousands of years old documents then there are many things that shall come first, but if no and you are believing in the human documented heritage then you should not be a cherry picker and a selective, almost all of the greatest historians whom have explored the old documents of the early diarists like Herodotus and ... are implying these data as facts.
So basically it's not about how you or me like it to be.

weren't like these savages

Oh my friend I don't even think of wishing a time travel for you to witness how time has made magic to civilize these people, it's all up to your wildest imagination to guess what were these guys whom are this way today in the eve of the third millennium, some 2 thousands years ago.

 

[Malik Alashter]

And what happened to the Muslim empire? The same thing that happens to all empires.


Unfortunately It's true. If you read history, It'll describe the burning of libraries, books etc.
For example, al-tabari wrote that the Arab Commander Sa'ad ibn Abi Waqqas wrote to Caliph Umar asking what should be done with the books at Ctesiphon. Umar wrote back: "If the books contradict the Qur'an, they are blasphemous. On the other hand, if they are in agreement, they are not needed, as for us Qur'an is sufficient. The huge library was destroyed and the books, the product of the generations of Persian scientists and scholars were thrown into fire or the Euphrates. And same thing happened to other libraries such as the library of Rayy later on, also Temples were destroyed/or converted into mosques etc. Scholars were killed and so on and so forth.
Now, one could say "those are Islamophobic" views. And they probably would have been justly called that, If it wasn't written down by the muslims/arabs themselves both in history books as well as in hadiths. And this isn't limited to the Persian Empire only, for example Abd'l Latif of Baghdad states that the library of Alexandria was destroyed by Amr, by the order of Caliph Umar.

Keep in mind that most Arabs today, Are people who have been "arabized". Most of them weren't Arabs by then.

What you see today, being done to Hatra, Nimrud, to the temples of Palmyra etc by certain groups in Iraq. It's a very similar pattern to what was done back then. Cultural genocide/cleansing.

I've read the Tabary book indeed, it seems I forgot but I'll reread that period again.

[/QUOTE]
Dear my friend, it's not about how I think or you think, it's all about trusting the available documents, if you start to reject the thousands of years old documents then there are many things that shall come first, but if no and you are believing in the human documented heritage then you should not be a cherry picker and a selective, almost all of the greatest historians whom have explored the old documents of the early diarists like Herodotus and ... are implying these data as facts.
So basically it's not about how you or me like it to be.


Oh my friend I don't even think of wishing a time travel for you to witness how time has made magic to civilize these people, it's all up to your wildest imagination to guess what were these guys whom are this way today in the eve of the third millennium, some 2 thousands years ago.[/QUOTE]No doubt of their brutality May Allah forgive me yes you right bro I just recalled some of that but, I never paid attention to them burning books.

Then what we see today is an echo to the past.

 

[Samlee]

A concrete evident and proof to disparage and discredit one of the most prominent historians of all times, and the writer of more than hundreds of thousands of historical pages of document by a brave internet lecturer.
Real world ain't about wishes or cheap talks my friend.

Here is an excerpt from Jim Safley's review of Durant's work:

"Durant’s brazenness and blind ambition offended some scholars. Critics accused Durant of carelessly dabbling in historical scholarship without professional credentials or qualifications. Professor J. H. Plumb, in New York Review of Books, asserted that “historical truth… can rarely be achieved outside the professional world [of historians].”[55] In the New York Herald Tribune Book Week, Professor Peter Gay of Columbia reflected Plumb’s assumption that only professional historians could write history, in that Durant’s “ultimate failure lies in [his] status: the book documents the loneliness of the amateur historian.”[56]

Durant realized the inevitability of professional criticism, accepting that “any man who sells his soul to synthesis will be a tragic target for a myriad merry darts of specialist critique.”[57] As was so in the Story of Philosophy, Durant’s purpose in The Story of Civilization was not to compose a professional writing, but to popularize history by making a large amount of information accessible and comprehensible to the educated public. The chance for errors, however, greatly increased with the scope of the undertaking. Details were lost and mistakes were made; but to Durant, the errors were small setbacks for his greater vision of “composite history.”

 

[Anaoshak]

Here is an excerpt from Jim Safley's review of Durant's work:

"Durant’s brazenness and blind ambition offended some scholars. Critics accused Durant of carelessly dabbling in historical scholarship without professional credentials or qualifications. Professor J. H. Plumb, in New York Review of Books, asserted that “historical truth… can rarely be achieved outside the professional world [of historians].”[55] In the New York Herald Tribune Book Week, Professor Peter Gay of Columbia reflected Plumb’s assumption that only professional historians could write history, in that Durant’s “ultimate failure lies in [his] status: the book documents the loneliness of the amateur historian.”[56]

Durant realized the inevitability of professional criticism, accepting that “any man who sells his soul to synthesis will be a tragic target for a myriad merry darts of specialist critique.”[57] As was so in the Story of Philosophy, Durant’s purpose in The Story of Civilization was not to compose a professional writing, but to popularize history by making a large amount of information accessible and comprehensible to the educated public. The chance for errors, however, greatly increased with the scope of the undertaking. Details were lost and mistakes were made; but to Durant, the errors were small setbacks for his greater vision of “composite history.”

Hi, i was curious to know the source of that excerpt? I was trying to find out who Jim Safley actually is as i haven't heard of him before. And i did search the source of the text you posted which got me to Riaz Haq's blog. And the man obviously is biased. As this was an answer to someone who pointed out that according to Will Durant's Story of Civilization, Will Durant had concluded that Islamic rule of India was bloodiest chapter in the history of mankind.

I also cross searched Professor Peter Gay and J. H. Plumb with Will Durant and didn't really come up with anything that supported what Mr. Riaz Haq had written on his blog.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2010/07/hind...showComment=1280271851147#c498872281749933957

Also i was wondering, you mentioned that Will Durant is a known Islamophobe, how so?

Sorry, i really enjoy history and have read numerous works by different authors. And when the author of The Story of Civilization , one of, if not the most successful historiographical series in history, is accused of things like that. It makes me curious.

 

[BordoEnes]

Hello,

is there anything written down from persian travellers or politicans about the roman empire?

I would like to hear an outside perspective. There is not much i can find. Only some chinese records but most tehy wrote was hear say because the great distance.

I would be happy if you could help me.

Most Persian books and documents were destroyed during the numerous foreign invasions. There is a reason why the two centuries after the Arab Muslim invasion was known as the silent centuries. Same thing can be said about the many ancient sites and artifacts about Anatolia.

 

[Samlee]

Hi, i was curious to know the source of that excerpt? I was trying to find out who Jim Safley actually is as i haven't heard of him before. And i did search the source of the text you posted which got me to Riaz Haq's blog. And the man obviously is biased. As this was an answer to someone who pointed out that according to Will Durant's Story of Civilization, Will Durant had concluded that Islamic rule of India was bloodiest chapter in the history of mankind.

I also cross searched Professor Peter Gay and J. H. Plumb with Will Durant and didn't really come up with anything that supported what Mr. Riaz Haq had written on his blog.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2010/07/hind...showComment=1280271851147#c498872281749933957

Also i was wondering, you mentioned that Will Durant is a known Islamophobe, how so?

Sorry, i really enjoy history and have read numerous works by different authors. And when the author of The Story of Civilization , one of, if not the most successful historiographical series in history, is accused of things like that. It makes me curious.

Jim Safley Is A Historian and Works As An Archivist At The Centre for History and New Media.It Is Unfortunate That The Link No Longer Exists.

William Durant Was Not At All A Qualified Historian and The Basis For Story of Civilization Were Actually A Series of Lectures He Delivered At A Presbyterian Church.A Holy Sermon Given Before Group of Christians Is Hardly Basis For Good History
Here Is What J.H Plumb Had To Say About Durant

But to some professional histo-rians like J.H. Plumb, who re-viewed ''The Age of Louis XIV'' (1963) for The New York Times Book Review, the Dur-ants' scholarship was ''de-plorable,'' with errors that stud the book ''like stars in the heaven on a frosty night.''

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/12/08/n...nd-rise-again-of-willdurant-truth-seeker.html


Riaz Haq Is Pakistani So It Is Natural That He Will Present A Pakistani Viewpoint The References He Gives Are Always Open For Verification

 

[Anaoshak]

Jim Safley Is A Historian and Works As An Archivist At The Centre for History and New Media.It Is Unfortunate That The Link No Longer Exists.

William Durant Was Not At All A Qualified Historian and The Basis For Story of Civilization Were Actually A Series of Lectures He Delivered At A Presbyterian Church.A Holy Sermon Given Before Group of Christians Is Hardly Basis For Good History

Riaz Haq Is Pakistani So It Is Natural That He Will Present A Pakistani Viewpoint The References He Gives Are Always Open For Verification

This guy? http://chnm.gmu.edu/author/jim-safley/

He is a Software Developer + Metadata Specialist at Center for History and New Media.
Can't seem to find any papers that he has written or reviews unfortunately.
And that's pretty uncommon for someone that is a Historian.
He did work as a Student Archivist Assistant at the Special Collections and Archives, George Mason University, but only for a year.

And i don't know which one is correct, his wiki page or his bio, but according to his bio, "Meanwhile, in a former Presbyterian Church now called Labor Temple, at 14th Street and 2ndAvenue, New York, he had begun those lectures on the history of philosophy, literature, science, music, and art which prepared him to write The Story of Philosophy and The Story of Civilization.".
In any case, whether it was a church or not shouldn't matter. But what is being said , as well as that being said is cross checked by other historians, records of old etc to see whether or not it's true, whether it was a Lecture in a Church or a Mosque. To call him an Islamophobe because he held his Lectures in a place that was a Presbyterian Church is hardly fair.

Like you said, Mr. Riaz Haq does seem to have a biased opinion. And will present the "Pakistani viewpoint". And i did read a little more on his blog. And some of his claims and references are definitely up for debate.

Anyway, thanks for the reply friend.

 

[Samlee]

This guy? http://chnm.gmu.edu/author/jim-safley/

He is a Software Developer + Metadata Specialist at Center for History and New Media.
Can't seem to find any papers that he has written or reviews unfortunately.
And that's pretty uncommon for someone that is a Historian.
He did work as a Student Archivist Assistant at the Special Collections and Archives, George Mason University, but only for a year.

And i don't know which one is correct, his wiki page or his bio, but according to his bio, "Meanwhile, in a former Presbyterian Church now called Labor Temple, at 14th Street and 2ndAvenue, New York, he had begun those lectures on the history of philosophy, literature, science, music, and art which prepared him to write The Story of Philosophy and The Story of Civilization.".
In any case, whether it was a church or not shouldn't matter. But what is being said , as well as that being said is cross checked by other historians, records of old etc to see whether or not it's true, whether it was a Lecture in a Church or a Mosque. To call him an Islamophobe because he held his Lectures in a place that was a Presbyterian Church is hardly fair.

Like you said, Mr. Riaz Haq does seem to have a biased opinion. And will present the "Pakistani viewpoint". And i did read a little more on his blog. And some of his claims and references are definitely up for debate.

Anyway, thanks for the reply friend.

Gentleman Jim Safley Is A Qualified Historian Before He Joined The Centre His Software Expertise Are Aimed At Digitally Storing Old Archives and Documents.He Has Been Working As An Archivists Not Only At GMU But Several Other Projects As Well.

Will Durant Was Never A Professional Historian Never Did He Study It Academically Nor Did He Even Teach It He Only Started Reading It When He Became Lecturer At A Church.You Have To Understand The Kind of Environment and Kind of People He Was Delivering The Lecture to

His Depiction Of Muslim Rule in India Is Filled With Sweeping Generalisations.And That Is Something Hitorians Have Criticisised Him For In Other Places

 

[raptor22]

Besides Arab invasion we had the Mongol invasion .. at least 7 millions Iranian were killed some cities like Neyshapour and its civilization were destroyed completely and city turned to a farm .. some scientists like Khyam Iranian mathematician, astronomer, philosopher, and poet were killed many books and libraries were burnt ...

 

[MarkusS]

I understand that Persia suffered enormous and Rome / Italy was never under such genocidal and horrible conditions. Even when the Vandals ran amok through Rome most stayed intact and was stored. We even have letters left ect.

But i can imagine that evrything from persia was lost. That cant be possible There must have been smaller temples, caves ect where things would survive unnoticed?

 

[rmi5]

Most Persian books and documents were destroyed during the numerous foreign invasions. There is a reason why the two centuries after the Arab Muslim invasion was known as the silent centuries. Same thing can be said about the many ancient sites and artifacts about Anatolia.

That's true. Arabs destroyed the libraries(chanting "Hasbanaa Kitab Allah", Allah's book is enough for us) and any ancient sites they could (they tried to destroy pyramids, persepolis, ... as well, but they simply could not). Dr. Zarrinkoub has a book named "Two Centuries of Silence" in which he very well explains what happened at that time. The only remaining books after Arab plunder are books that people memorized or rewrote as poems, like Gatha, Shahnameh, ...

I understand that Persia suffered enormous and Rome / Italy was never under such genocidal and horrible conditions. Even when the Vandals ran amok through Rome most stayed intact and was stored. We even have letters left ect.

But i can imagine that evrything from persia was lost. That cant be possible There must have been smaller temples, caves ect where things would survive unnoticed?

The destruction has been beyond imagination. They simply destroyed every single piece of Iranian books, palaces, dams, ... they could. You can refer to Ibn Khaldun books as well. He says wherever Arabs went, that land didn't even produce fruits, ... anymore. What these guys are doing in Syria and Iraq nowadays comnpared to what they did 1400 years ago, is comparing a kid to a serial killer. Arabs basically throughly removed civilization from some of the most civilized parts of ancient world. As I said above, the only remaining books are the ones that people memorized or rewrote later, like Shahnameh, Gatha, ...

 

[MarkusS]

That's true. Arabs destroyed the libraries(chanting "Hasbanaa Kitab Allah", Allah's book is enough for us) and any ancient sites they could (they tried to destroy pyramids, persepolis, ... as well, but they simply could not). Dr. Zarrinkoub has a book named "Two Centuries of Silence" in which he very well explains what happened at that time. The only remaining books after Arab plunder are books that people memorized or rewrote as poems, like Gatha, Shahnameh, ...


The destruction has been beyond imagination. They simply destroyed every single piece of Iranian books, palaces, dams, ... they could. You can refer to Ibn Khaldun books as well. He says wherever Arabs went, that land didn't even produce fruits, ... anymore. What these guys are doing in Syria and Iraq nowadays comnpared to what they did 1400 years ago, is comparing a kid to a serial killer. Arabs basically throughly removed civilization from some of the most civilized parts of ancient world. As I said above, the only remaining books are the ones that people memorized or rewrote later, like Shahnameh, Gatha, ...

That is our fault and i feel sorry for that. It was this senseless constant war between us and persia that allowed this to happen. I feel sorry for that.

 

[BordoEnes]

That's true. Arabs destroyed the libraries(chanting "Hasbanaa Kitab Allah", Allah's book is enough for us) and any ancient sites they could (they tried to destroy pyramids, persepolis, ... as well, but they simply could not). Dr. Zarrinkoub has a book named "Two Centuries of Silence" in which he very well explains what happened at that time. The only remaining books after Arab plunder are books that people memorized or rewrote as poems, like Gatha, Shahnameh, ...


The destruction has been beyond imagination. They simply destroyed every single piece of Iranian books, palaces, dams, ... they could. You can refer to Ibn Khaldun books as well. He says wherever Arabs went, that land didn't even produce fruits, ... anymore. What these guys are doing in Syria and Iraq nowadays comnpared to what they did 1400 years ago, is comparing a kid to a serial killer. Arabs basically throughly removed civilization from some of the most civilized parts of ancient world. As I said above, the only remaining books are the ones that people memorized or rewrote later, like Shahnameh, Gatha, ...

Lets not forget about the Mongols here. Thanks to the death of the Great Khan Europe was sparred from an invasion of the destructive Mongol general Subotai whilst on the other hand 90% of the population of the Kwarazmian empire was whiped out along with countless entire cities and sites. Persia or Iran have simply suffered so many destructive invasions that its understandable why so little artifacts and documents remain. The Arabs were on of many.

That is our fault and i feel sorry for that. It was this senseless constant war between us and persia that allowed this to happen. I feel sorry for that.

To be honest the constant Persian-Roman rivalry was inevitable and lets not forget that the Byzantines suffered massive losses aswell. The Arabs came all the way to the gates of Constantinople. If it wasnt for this legendary city the Romans would most likely have fallen aswell.

 

[MarkusS]

Lets not forget about the Mongols here. Thanks to the death of the Great Khan Europe was sparred from an invasion of the destructive Mongol general Subotai whilst on the other hand 90% of the population of the Kwarazmian empire was whiped out along with countless entire cities and sites. Persia or Iran have simply suffered so many destructive invasions that its understandable why so little artifacts and documents remain. The Arabs were on of many.


To be honest the constant Persian-Roman rivalry was inevitable and lets not forget that the Byzantines suffered massive losses aswell. The Arabs came all the way to the gates of Constantinople. If it wasnt for this legendary city the Romans would most likely have fallen aswell.

I´m well aware that we survived basicly in a "panic room"