History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[ChineseTiger1986]

It is disputed between Han and Viet, Wu Yue has nothing to do here, bro.

Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.

 

[EastSea]

Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.

Han chinese has been copied every thing from her neighbors from ancient time, after that claimed that its invented by herself.

 

[Grand Historian]

Han chinese has been copied every thing from her neighbors from ancient time, after that claimed that its invented by herself.

Han is your teacher, and you have to show some respect to your teacher anyway.

The incorrigible EastSea is just another culture/history thief.

But I suppose that's what happens to jealous people who make up a glorious past in an attempt to whitewash the truth.

 

[terranMarine]

The incorrigible EastSea is just another culture/history thief.

But I suppose that's what happens to jealous people who make up a glorious past in an attempt to whitewash the truth.

I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them

 

[Rent]

To find the answer to your question. I propose we analyze this all together.

Wang Anahi was relieved of his duty in 1074 and move to Jiangning, modern day Nanjing as a governor. He returned in 1075 for a second term as prime minister of Song and stepped down again in 1076.

His reforms fall into three categories. Education, Economics, and most famous is his Military reform.

Let's analyze Baojia, his military reforms. Wang Anshi proposed to the Song Emperor to train farmers into soldiers and provide them with weapons, necessary equipments including uniforms. One male from each household that have two males bodies in their household must enlist. Five hundred household would form a regimental unit of 500 men. These farmers would act as police during peaceful times and as soldier during time of war. This reform continues until the fall of Qing.

With his new reforms, Song military increased in size. Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.

Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work.

@dichoi , @Grand Historian and @Viet. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

I asked for sources written by the Chinese not Vietnamese ones.

Show me the the petitions he sent to the Song emperor to invade Dai Viet.

 

[EastSea]

I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them

I said to you many time that Han Chinese is originally living first in Zhongyuan in ancient time, they lived in cave house, cared livestock, they eat dumpling with hands.

Han Chinese invaded to south, so they learnt wet rice planting technic form Bai Yue and eating rice from then. Chopsticks invented by Bai Yue, where is bamboo tree available.

writing characters of Lou Yue people is found recently in Guangxi, which dated back 4,000 year, more early than Han Zi. Architecture of Forbiden City in Peking is made by Vietnamese architect Nguen An, base on tradition floor house of Bai Yue people in southern.

 

[Grand Historian]

To find the answer to your question. I propose we analyze this all together.

Wang Anahi was relieved of his duty in 1074 and move to Jiangning, modern day Nanjing as a governor. He returned in 1075 for a second term as prime minister of Song and stepped down again in 1076.

His reforms fall into three categories. Education, Economics, and most famous is his Military reform.

Let's analyze Baojia, his military reforms. Wang Anshi proposed to the Song Emperor to train farmers into soldiers and provide them with weapons, necessary equipments including uniforms. One male from each household that have two males bodies in their household must enlist. Five hundred household would form a regimental unit of 500 men. These farmers would act as police during peaceful times and as soldier during time of war. This reform continues until the fall of Qing.

With his new reforms, Song military increased in size. Combined with his other unfavorable reforms as well as government loans to poor farmers, which a lot of farmers took advantage of, eventually bankrupted the Song's government and force them into war with their neighbors to make up lost revenue.

Like any modern employer, Song Emperor can't afford to pay the salaries of his large employment force without putting them to work.

@dichoi , @Grand Historian and @Viet. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

There are multiple issues with his reforms neither of which bankrupted the Song dynasty.

The supply master conscription which was intended to force the wealthy landed gentry to pay back their share only ended up in decrease in productivity due to poorer families not willing reach the wealth necessary to be counted amongst the wealthiest(who were the only eligible ones for this position).

Which ended up with land owners needing less peasants therefore they became bandits or vagrants.

The service exemption policy was widely despised as the fee was taken by those families that were eligible as well as taxing households who don't have males available for draft therefore Buddhists,Taoists as well as ranked governmental officials became enemies of the reformist faction.

Mercantile reform attempted to break up monopolies as well as lower the power of mercantile guilds which also resulted in abuse by government officials,rise in the prices of basic goods as well as earning another enemy.

Baojia was formed to suppress banditry,criminals as well as anti Song religious cults,their formation wasn't intended for foreign invasions or invasions of other territories,the only exception being Northern provinces. Wang Anshi intended for the Baojia system to completely replace the Song mercenary army. The Baojia system was also intended to save money not spend it as peasants were cheaper than mercenaries by Wang Anshi's estimate the Song government would save 80-90%.

Basically the Baojia system was a carrot and stick approach as Baojia supervisors were paid quite handsomely.

The rural credit system failed because the reformers couldn't figure out whether to maximize social mobility or government revenue therefore theoretically anyone who can pay back the loan(divided into different grades of families) can receive them.

This resulted in abuse such as targeting the rich for maximum profits therefore diminishing the reformers arguments that they are to help the peasantry,and emergency granaries were abused by corrupt officials to generate more loans.

Under Wang Anshi's tenure the the government profited immensely from the rural credit,service exemptions as well as state monopolization ie in 1076 there was a surplus of 27.7 million taels of cash and another 22.2 million stock of silk bolts and other miscellaneous items.

This surplus was the lifeblood of the disastrous Song invasions of the Tanguts.

Vietnamese claims that Wang Anshi is war mongering are also untrue,Song Shenzong wanted to use Song armies to attack the Tanguts and the Khitans and Wang Anshi was the one to stop him,and Song Shenzong proceeded to invade the Tanguts to no avail.

 

[Grand Historian]

I said to you many time that Han Chinese is originally living first in Zhongyuan in ancient time, they lived in cave house, cared livestock, they eat dumpling with hands.

Han Chinese invaded to south, so they learnt wet rice planting technic form Bai Yue and eating rice from then. Chopsticks invented by Bai Yue, where is bamboo tree available.

writing characters of Lou Yue people is found recently in Guangxi, which dated back 4,000 year, more early than Han Zi. Architecture of Forbiden City in Peking is made by Vietnamese architect Nguen An, base on tradition floor house of Bai Yue people in southern.

Yawn,repeating the same debunked lies,do you have no shame?

1.You don't seem to realize the inhabitants of southern China(who domesticated rice) 8,200-13,500 years ago were Australoids/Negroids which neither the Baiyue or Han are descended from.

2.The earliest discovered chopsticks were from the Shang while you can't prove that the Baiyue even used them.

3.Oracle bone script didn't arrive out of nowhere neolithic China already had lexicons resembling scripts,furthermore the oracle bone script also are written in Sinitic not Austro Asiatic or Tai Kadai further diminishing your claim.

Even if there's a gap from neolithic China to Shang,the Shang were of northeastern and central Chinese stock not Baiyue.

Notice how the tadpole script was also discovered in the vicinity which was used by Tai Kadai speakers.

4.Forbidden City was built by more than Nguyen An,you must be brain dead if you think the archaeological style resembled Baiyue architecture,I suppose stilt houses with thatch roofs comprise the Forbidden City?

 

[EastSea]

Yawn,repeating the same debunked lies,do you have no shame?

1.You don't seem to realize the inhabitants of southern China(who domesticated rice) 8,200-13,500 years ago were Australoids/Negroids which neither the Baiyue or Han are descended from.

2.The earliest discovered chopsticks were from the Shang while you can't prove that the Baiyue even used them.

3.Oracle bone script didn't arrive out of nowhere neolithic China already had lexicons resembling scripts,furthermore the oracle bone script also are written in Sinitic not Austro Asiatic or Tai Kadai further diminishing your claim.

Even if there's a gap from neolithic China to Shang,the Shang were of northeastern and central Chinese stock not Baiyue.

Notice how the tadpole script was also discovered in the vicinity which was used by Tai Kadai speakers.

4.Forbidden City was built by more than Nguyen An,you must be brain dead if you think the archaeological style resembled Baiyue architecture,I suppose stilt houses with thatch roofs comprise the Forbidden City?

I said I ignore you. Don't jump in my debate with other Chinese member. Don't cry to mod to ban me gain.

 

[Grand Historian]

I said I ignore you. Don't jump in my debate with other Chinese member. Don't cry to mod to ban me gain.

You can't debate all you do is spew the same lies over and over again.

 

[Rent]

Don't be so arrogant and naive Cherry Picker.

I would say that Qin standardized the characters of writing used by Viet and Han at the period, since both were under its rule.

Base on current archeological findings, Son Vi Culture and Bac Son Culture are the originator of working tools, while Phung Nguyen Culture kick started the Bronze Age in Asia. Dong Son Culture is credited with originating the process of rice cultivation, turning the Ma River and Red River delta area into a massive rice-growing region and they were the first to domesticate animals such as buffaloes, pigs and dogs.

Currently, these cultures are considered as the basis of the general civilization of the region that spread there knowledge throughout Asia.

Recent study published in 2012 by Nature show genetic evidences of domesticated rice originating from a single sources in the middle area of Pearl River valley of what is now Southern China. Although, this do not match archeological finding in Yangtze valley in China. Both findings are subjective.

A map of rice genome variation reveals the origin of cultivated rice : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

Without invention of working tools, how can you make your chopsticks? Without the invention of bronze smelting and casting of metal ores by Phung Nguyen Culture of Vietnam, the Shang would not know how to smelt and cast metals ores into bronze to make their bronze chopsticks.

Everyone should wait for more recent studies and archeological findings before we pass our judgements.

I wonder how many people would buy that crap anyway, chopsticks, traditional clothes, writing system, architecture and other inventions originated from jungle living creatures. All Chinese had to do was steal it from them

 

[Grand Historian]

Don't be so arrogant and naive Cherry Picker.

I would say that Qin standardized the characters of writing used by Viet and Han at the period, since both were under its rule.

Base on current archeological findings, Son Vi Culture and Bac Son Culture are the originator of working tools, while Phung Nguyen Culture kick started the Bronze Age in Asia. Dong Son Culture is credited with originating the process of rice cultivation, turning the Ma River and Red River delta area into a massive rice-growing region and they were the first to domesticate animals such as buffaloes, pigs and dogs.

Currently, these cultures are considered as the basis of the general civilization of the region that spread there knowledge throughout Asia.

Recent study published in 2012 by Nature show genetic evidences of domesticated rice originating from a single sources in the middle area of Pearl River valley of what is now Southern China. Although, this do not match archeological finding in Yangtze valley in China. Both findings are subjective.

A map of rice genome variation reveals the origin of cultivated rice : Nature : Nature Publishing Group

Without invention of working tools, how can you make your chopsticks? Without the invention of bronze smelting and casting of metal ores by Phung Nguyen Culture of Vietnam, the Shang would not know how to smelt and cast metals ores into bronze to make their bronze chopsticks.

Everyone should wait for more recent studies and archeological findings before we pass our judgements.

If you want to include non Chinese/Vietnamese than Homo Erectus already had crude tools neither Son Vi or Bac Son is Mongoloid,Majiayao had bronze smelting predating Phung Nguyen,the Dong Son wasn't the first to cultivate rice other sites such as Hemudu predate it.

Either way you have nothing to show that Vietnamese bronzes or tools reached Northern China.

 

[Rent]

There are multiple issues with his reforms neither of which bankrupted the Song dynasty.

The supply master conscription which was intended to force the wealthy landed gentry to pay back their share only ended up in decrease in productivity due to poorer families not willing reach the wealth necessary to be counted amongst the wealthiest(who were the only eligible ones for this position).

Which ended up with land owners needing less peasants therefore they became bandits or vagrants.

The service exemption policy was widely despised as the fee was taken by those families that were eligible as well as taxing households who don't have males available for draft therefore Buddhists,Taoists as well as ranked governmental officials became enemies of the reformist faction.

Mercantile reform attempted to break up monopolies as well as lower the power of mercantile guilds which also resulted in abuse by government officials,rise in the prices of basic goods as well as earning another enemy.

Baojia was formed to suppress banditry,criminals as well as anti Song religious cults,their formation wasn't intended for foreign invasions or invasions of other territories,the only exception being Northern provinces. Wang Anshi intended for the Baojia system to completely replace the Song mercenary army. The Baojia system was also intended to save money not spend it as peasants were cheaper than mercenaries by Wang Anshi's estimate the Song government would save 80-90%.

Basically the Baojia system was a carrot and stick approach as Baojia supervisors were paid quite handsomely.

The rural credit system failed because the reformers couldn't figure out whether to maximize social mobility or government revenue therefore theoretically anyone who can pay back the loan(divided into different grades of families) can receive them.

This resulted in abuse such as targeting the rich for maximum profits therefore diminishing the reformers arguments that they are to help the peasantry,and emergency granaries were abused by corrupt officials to generate more loans.

Under Wang Anshi's tenure the the government profited immensely from the rural credit,service exemptions as well as state monopolization ie in 1076 there was a surplus of 27.7 million taels of cash and another 22.2 million stock of silk bolts and other miscellaneous items.

This surplus was the lifeblood of the disastrous Song invasions of the Tanguts.

Vietnamese claims that Wang Anshi is war mongering are also untrue,Song Shenzong wanted to use Song armies to attack the Tanguts and the Khitans and Wang Anshi was the one to stop him,and Song Shenzong proceeded to invade the Tanguts to no avail.

From 伐宋露布文, we can see the name Anshi. This was written in 1075 by Lý Thường Kiệt.

天生蒸民, 君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞, 宋主昏庸, 不循聖范. 聽安石貪邪之計, 作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地, 而資其肥己之謀.

I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time.

Song did not attack Tangut until 1081. Wang Anshi stepped down from his second term after 1075.

It is a pity that Tangut historical and written records were all destroyed after Genghis Khan took over.

If you want to include non Chinese/Vietnamese than Homo Erectus already had crude tools neither Son Vi or Bac Son is Mongoloid,Majiayao had bronze smelting predating Phung Nguyen,the Dong Son wasn't the first to cultivate rice other sites such as Hemudu predate it.

Either way you have nothing to show that Vietnamese bronzes or tools reached Northern China.

Hemudu Culture is what I have mentioned as the archeological finding in Yangtze Valley. However, genetic evidence of domesticated rice do not agree. It points to Pearl River Valley.

There are a lot of painted potteries discovered in Majiayao sites (in Eastern Qinghai). Only one small incomplete tin-bronze knife was ever found in Jiangjiaping, suggesting it was a traded item.

Qijia Culture (in Qinghai) found 22 small copper objects and 4 bronze objects scattered from 8 locations. This also suggested they were traded items.

Siwa Culture (Gansu) found only 33 small copper items and 4 bronze tools from 6 locations. This also suggested trades.

There is the Gobi desert to the northwest of the central plain and Takla Makan desert to the far West of the central plain.

There are no copper and bronze objects discovered from neolithic cultures sites north of the central plain. However, as archeologist digs further and further south, copper and bronze working tools, jewelries, utensils, axes, and knives were found in abundance. This is evidence that the source of trade is from Southeast Asia.

China Bronze Age started with the Shang.

 

[Grand Historian]

From 伐宋露布文, we can see the name Anshi. This was written in 1075 by Lý Thường Kiệt.

天生蒸民, 君德則睦. 君民之道，務在養民. 今聞, 宋主昏庸, 不循聖范. 聽安石貪邪之計, 作青苗助役之科. 使百姓膏脂涂地, 而資其肥己之謀.

I still believe that Wang Anshi's impulsive political reforms caused the Northern Song to collapse. Spending so much money within a short period of time.

Song did not attack Tangut until 1081. Wang Anshi stepped down from his second term after 1075.

It is a pity that Tangut historical and written records were all destroyed after Genghis Khan took over.

Where are the Song sources that Wang Anshi wanted to invade Dai Viet prior to a Vietnamese incursion in 1075?

It doesn't matter what you believe in,Wang Anshi's political reforms caused a surplus in cash and other goods so conflating his reforms with the collapse of Northern Song is ludicrous.

You still haven't addressed he was anti war and Shenzong didn't die until 1085.

Your pet theory that the Baojia system or any other reform caused the Song to go bankrupt has already been debunked.

Hemudu Culture is what I have mentioned as the archeological finding in Yangtze Valley. However, genetic evidence of domesticated rice do not agree. It points to Pearl River Valley.

There are a lot of painted potteries discovered in Majiayao sites (in Eastern Qinghai). Only one small incomplete tin-bronze knife was ever found in Jiangjiaping, suggesting it was a traded item.

Qijia Culture (in Qinghai) found 22 small copper objects and 4 bronze objects scattered from 8 locations. This also suggested they were traded items.

Siwa Culture (Gansu) found only 33 small copper items and 4 bronze tools from 6 locations. This also suggested trades.

There is the Gobi desert to the northwest of the central plain and Takla Makan desert to the far West of the central plain.

There are no copper and bronze objects discovered from neolithic cultures sites north of the central plain. However, as archeologist digs further and further south, copper and bronze working tools, jewelries, utensils, axes, and knives were found in abundance. This is evidence that the source of trade is from Southeast Asia.

China Bronze Age started with the Shang.

How is the Pearl River Valley equivalent to the Dong Son culture,the earliest domestication date would indicate that the population would be composed of Australoids/Negroids therefore predating Han or Baiyue.

Some claim that the Afanasievo culture made contact with neolithic China however most Sinologists claim that bronze working is indigenous.

The Erlitou culture already manufactured taotie motifs.wine vessels and cauldrons which indicates that bronze working predates the Shang.

Show me papers or books that indicate bronze work isn't indigenous to Norhtern China.

 

[Rent]

Where are the Song sources that Wang Anshi wanted to invade Dai Viet prior to a Vietnamese incursion in 1075?

It doesn't matter what you believe in,Wang Anshi's political reforms caused a surplus in cash and other goods so conflating his reforms with the collapse of Northern Song is ludicrous.

You still haven't addressed he was anti war and Shenzong didn't die until 1085.

Your pet theory that the Baojia system or any other reform caused the Song to go bankrupt has already been debunked.

Wang Anshi's reforms may have saved a lot of money to allow Song to build a large army, bigger than its predecessor. However, Song's large bureaucracy was unable to adjust to its new policies. With constant, unnecessary campaign to annex Dai Viet in 1075 which lasted until 1077, follow by the invasion of Tangut, it destroyed much of their regular well trained army force. The cost of war was more than what Song Shenzong have to spend. This nearly bankrupted Northern Song causing it to grow weaker.

The military reforms allowed low ranking civilians of the scholar-gentry to run the army made up of ill-trained militias, plus training of military horses were left in the care and responsibility of farmers. By 1126, Song army was weakened to extent. This left the dynasty vulnerable to nomadic invasion on the frontiers. Subsequently forcing Song Prince to flee south across the Yangtze River to Hongzhou to established Southern Song.

How is the Pearl River Valley equivalent to the Dong Son culture,the earliest domestication date would indicate that the population would be composed of Australoids/Negroids therefore predating Han or Baiyue.

Some claim that the Afanasievo culture made contact with neolithic China however most Sinologists claim that bronze working is indigenous.

The Erlitou culture already manufactured taotie motifs.wine vessels and cauldrons which indicates that bronze working predates the Shang.

Show me papers or books that indicate bronze work isn't indigenous to Norhtern China.

Gobi desert and Takla Makan desert prevented Afanasievo culture from crossing to the central plain.

Camels were introduce to China during Tang Dynasty.

Erlitou culture is Shang and Zhou Dynasty.

There are many published articles and books regarding Neolithic Bronze Age. Below are two sources. You may Google them for yourself.

The Archaeology of Ancient China (4th edition), by K.C. Chang (Yale, 1987).

NEOLITHIC CHINA: BEFORE THE SHANG DYNASTY; Indiana university


To prove who invited what first does not matter much to most people. We are all living in the same age with the same technology readily available. The only difference between households, are cost of living, family, friends, liberty, and job security. These are what matters to all people. One can only achieve this living conditions in a free government with the ability to check and sustain the balance of power between the people and itself.