yue10
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2013
- Messages
- 215
- Reaction score
- 0
it is incorrect for you to say as 'we' my Annam friend, unless you are the overseas student will return to serve your country you cannot say as we live under the shadow of China, you have ran away from your homelands into the arms of the Germany my friendwe are small and live under the shadow of China. That is depressing. Although we have successfully expanded our territory since we started the South March, but it is still too little.
you are the one who resorted to racial slur (Annam pig). Read your own posts! Can you tell me more about your professors (subject in CCP or what)? Not everyone is free to say nonsense. You cannot copy and paste of what one tells and say that is the truth. Use your brain!
by the way, I find it funny to debate with someone who makes fun about our cultures (and some derived from Sinic), when he comes from a country being famous for destroying cultural heritage in the so-called cultural revolution (actually the term cultural destruction fits better).
you should be the one to use the brain since you are the one to blindly believe in lies, learn your history again my Annam friend
the people of Red River delta for this time period is Tai, you are Austro Asiatic, a dark skin pure aboriginal of SEA, must be something to do with minority in Cuu Chan
Based upon degree of diversity, linguistic evidence therefore places the homeland of Proto Vietic in the interior regions of what is now Borikhamxay and Khammouane Provinces, with some overflow to the opposite side of the Sai Phou Louang (Annamite) chain, to the north in Nghe An and to the east in Quang Binh, that is, far south of the H6ng plain.
Furthermore, it is clear from the ethnolinguistic evidence summarized above that the modem Vietnamese were recent arrivals in the Delta, and that the movement of Viet-Meuang peoples generally has been from south to north, not the reverse as most histories would have us believe.
this is based on fingerprints or something so we cannot really trusting this but the conclusion sounds usable
According to the related historical records, the population history of the Kinh, which we extrapolated also, conforms to the pattern of demic diffusion. In North Vietnam, the early inhabitant is the Luo-Yue of Daic family. In the Han dynasty, there was a war between the Chinese central government and the Southern Yue government, which resulted in heavy political pressure on the Yue (Daic) population, which lasted into Wu dynasty of the Three States Period. A large number of Daic populations including the Luo-Yue moved westwards to Guizhou, west Guangxi, Laos, and as far as north Thailand. It was nearly empty along Tonkin Bay, including North Vietnam and east Guangxi. In the following, the Jing dynasty and the Southern-Northern States Period, as the northern nomads invaded central China, the Chinese government ignored Tonkin Bay and left it for the growing Kinh population. Since then, the Kinh appeared in the records of north Vietnam. After a long time of development in the Sui and Tang dynasties, a country of Kinh people was founded during the China’s civil strife in the late Tang dynasty.
see here the cultural connection between Tai and ancient Chinese
Maspero also saw certain Tai peoples as representatives of what we might label East Asian antiquity. In an essay entitled “The Society and Religion of the Ancient Chinese and of the Modern Tai”, Maspero compared the lives, festivals, religion, myths and funeral customs of the Black Tai and White Tai who lived in the mountains between Vietnam and Laos in the early 20th century with the same elements in ancient China. Ultimately, Maspero argued that the world which we can see in ancient Chinese texts like the Classic of Poetry (Shijing) closely resembles the world of the Black Tai and White Tai, and that these two peoples therefore represent a common world of antiquity which subsequently was largely lost to various cultural and social developments.7 In other words, to Maspero the Tai were an important people, but that importance lay somewhere in the distant past. The parallels which he saw between the life of the Black Tai and White Tai in the mountains of the Indochinese Peninsula and the lifestyle of the ancient Chinese as revealed in the Classic of Poetry were a clear sign of their antiquity.
here more proof Tai was settled in Northern VN according to toponym
Xu Songshi contributed to this understanding in a 1946 work entitled Research on the Dai, Zhuang and Yue (“Yue” here refers to the Cantonese). In this study, Xu Songshi points out that there were various place names in southern China and extending into northern Vietnam which came from Zhuang, a Tai language. For instance, he states that there were many place names which began with the character “gu” (古), or “cổ” in Vietnamese, a term which he argues came from Zhuang and has been interpreted in many ways, from meaning “I,” to a classifi er, to meaning a mountain with no vegetation on it. He also mentions that such place names could be found in the past from Anhui Province, in what is today central China, to Guangxi Province in the southwest, an area which he argues Tai speakers historically inhabited.9 Xu Songshi also cites a work which was published in 1877, Xu Yanxu’s Brief Compilation on Vietnam, which reportedly contains a map of the districts in Vietnam when it was under Chinese control in the early 15th century.10 This map apparently lists place names in what is today northern Vietnam such as the following: Cổ Bàng (古榜), Cổ Lão (古老), Cổ Lễ (古禮), Cổ Dũng (古勇), Cổ Long (古龍), Cổ Phí (古費), Cổ Đằng (古藤), Cổ Hồng (古宏), Cổ Lôi (古雷), Cổ Bình (古平), Cổ Đặng (古鄧), Cổ Xã (古社), and Cổ Nông (古農). Additionally, Xu Songshi states that characters such as tư/si (思), đô/du (都), đa/duo (多), na/na (那), bố/bu (布), and điều/diao (調) also represent Zhuang words, and that in Vietnam during the 15th century there were also place names with these characters, such as the following: Na Ngạn (那岸), Lục Na (陸那), Đa Cẩm (多錦), Đa Dực (多翌), Tư Dung (思容), Điều An (調安), and Bố Chân (布真).11 Unfortunately, Xu Songshi did not state what these other terms might have meant in Zhuang, although anyone familiar with a Tai language can tell that “na/na” is the term for a field. While Xu Songshi therefore indicated that there was historically a strong Tai presence in the Red River Delta, he did not provide a clear historical explanation for how this happened.
Lac Viet is the expert in wet rice, Giao Chi was centre for rice production export to other province like Hepu, here it said your Viet learn wet rice cultivation from Tai
In particular, he notes that many words in Vietnamese dealing with wet rice agriculture all come from Tày Thái. For instance, both share a common word for rice = gạo/khẩu [BT, khảu], and they also make the same distinction between two main types of rice: glutinous rice, gạo nếp = khẩu dếp (Tày)/khẩu niêu (Thái) [BT, khảu ón], and regular white rice, gạo tẻ = khẩu te (Tày)/khẩu xẻ (Thái) [BT, khảo sẻ].44 In order to grow wet rice, one needs to be able to control the necessary water. Phạm Đức Dương fi nds that Việt Mường words pertaining to this topic, such as mương phai (“irrigation canal”) [BT, mương = irrigation ditch, phai = dam] and guồng (“waterwheel”) [BT, cuống], come from Tày Thái . Based on this information, he argues that the Việt Mường must have learned about wet rice agriculture and water control from the Tày Thái.
the legends of VN to do with Hung Kings and Lac society all derive from Tai words
Phạm Đức Dương adds that the head of this new super muang was called phò khun in Tai. Here he agrees with Trần Quốc Vượng that the term, “hùng,” in the title “Hùng king” comes from this Tai term.
To quote again, the Complete Book recorded that under the Hùng kings, “the princes were called quan lang, and princesses were called mỵ nương. Offi cials were called bồ chính. From one generation to the next fathers passed [positions] on to their sons. This is called the way of the father [phụ đạo].” All of these terms are Tai Journal of terms, or more accurately, they are mostly “Sinicized Tai” terms as they combine Tai and Chinese elements. As for mỵ nương, the first term, “mỵ,” is “mae” (แม่) in Tai and literally means “mother,” whereas the second term, “nang,” means “maiden” and is a Chinese term, “niang” (娘). Similarly, “quan lang” consists of a Chinese term for “offi cial” (官, guan) and another term which means “man” and which was used in offi cial titles in medieval China, but was also used in titles for certain aboriginal peoples in the area of Guangxi. Fan Chengda, for instance, noted that some “savage” headmen were called “langhuo” (郎火).80 Quan lang was used at least from the time of the Tang to refer to low-level offi cials who ruled over aboriginal peoples on behalf of the Chinese in the area of the Red River delta. For instance, a Tang-era text records that for generations members of a family surnamed Phùng served as “barbarian rulers” (夷長, Di trưởng/Yizhang) on the edge of the delta and were called “quan lang.”81 As for “bồ chính,” this term likewise appears to be a hybrid term. The word “bồ” could be the equivalent of either “phu” (ผู้, person) or “pho” (พ่อ, father) in Tai. “Chính,” meanwhile could be “chieng” in Tai, which means “citadel” and comes from the Chinese “cheng” (城). The “phu chieng” or “pho chieng” could therefore
signify something like the “master of the citadel.” Finally, what the text refers to as the passing of rulership from one generation to the other, or the “way of the father” (phụ đạo), could be a reference to an “elder” or “phu thaw” (ผู้เฒ่า), or to a term which the Black Tai used to refer to their rulers, “phu thaw” (ผู้ท้าว).
movement of Viets and gain help from your Mon-Khmer brothers Chenla and Linyi, 400000 is maybe 40000 or something
Many questions remain unanswered. The precise dates when the ethnic Vie1namese actually replaced the Tai in the Delta are uncertain, but this must have occurred sometime between the seventh and the ninth centuries.
In 722 a man named Mai Thuc Loan from a salt-producing village on the Hoan coast southeast ofHa Tinh (southern Nghe An) brought together people from thirty-two provinces, including Lin-i, Chen-la, and a hitherto unknown kingdom called Chin-lin ('gold neighbor'), altogether totaling four hundred thousand, and styling himself'the Black Emperor' he marched northward and 'seized all of Annam.'
Some historical events appear with such little context that it is impossible to evaluate what exactly happened or what significance they might be imagined to have had. One such event is the great spasm of violence that broke into the southern Tang frontier in 722 under the leadership of a man remembered in Tang records as the Black Emperor, presumably because he was black. He came from a coastal village at the extreme southern frontier of the Tang Empire, in modern Ha Tinh Province, near Ngang Pass at the Hoanh Son massif. This was not only on the border of Tang with peoples on the southern coast; it was also near the terminus of the main route from the middle part of the Mekong over the mountains through Mu Gia Pass to the coast. According to Tang records, the Black Emperor assembled a host of four hundred thousand, comprised of a multitude of peoples from the mountains, the coasts, and the seas beyond the Tang frontier. What led to this breakdown of Tang frontier vigilance is as mysterious as what may have elicited and enabled the Black Emperor’s leadership. The Black Emperor and his followers marched north and, surprising the fleeing Tang authorities, soon had the entire Protectorate of An Nam under their plundering regime, Tang forces in the north immediately mobilized, marched back into the Protectorate, and slaughtered the Black Emperor and his horde. Forty-five years later, in 767, a somewhat similar episode occurred when people identified in Tang records with terms generally applied to the islands of what is now Indonesia invaded from the sea and briefly overran the Protectorate of An Nam until armies mobilized in the north arrived to expel them.
Ai and seven other provinces were established in the basin of the Ma. Taylor regards this territory as a backwater in the center of the protectorate that was least affected by Chinese rule, and therefore 'emerged in the tenth century as the original and most persistent center of the politics of independence' (p. 173). In ethnolinguistic terms, I would rephrase this to say that Ai, especially the hinterlands, was a vacuum filled eventually by Muimg speakers, the language closest to Vietnamese, whose language and culture exhibit Tai influence as opposed to Chinese.
At the end of 862, Nan-chao which had been threatening Annam for some time, invaded with a force of fifty thousand men and Giao fell at the beginning of 863. Records state that one hundred and fifty thousand Tang soldiers were killed or captured by Nan-chao and an unknown number fled to the north. Probably the highest portion was local recruits and it may be assumed that the victory of Nan-chao led to a severe reduction in population in the Delta. Nan-chao was driven out by Kao P'ien in 866 (Taylor: 239ft). Of interest, in the wake of the Nan-chao war and the weakened condition of Giao, are Taylor's remarks (p. 248) to the effect that the existence of 'two cultural currents' became clear: ( 1) the Tang-Viet Buddhist culture of Giao, militarily dependent upon Tang, and (2) the anti-Tang elements, many of whom had sided with Nanchao and fled into the mountains with the attack of Kao P'ien.2
here the Viet historian said during domination period you are already civilised as should be expected
but here Song emperor speaking as if you are barbaric savages was never civilisedWhen Viet scholars eventually pieced together a history of their kingdom, they argued that the period when Shi Xie governed over Jiaozhi Commandery was the time when the texts and practices which enabled people to develop moral virtue were first taught. Hence, Ngo Si Lien commented that, “Our kingdom became well-versed in the Classic of Poetry and Venerated Documents, started to practice [Confucian] rites and music, and became a domain of manifest civility starting in the time of King Shi [i.e. Shi Xie].”
Like a stern headmaster, Taizong appealed to Le Hoan to see reason and return to the Chinese fold: "Although your seas have pearls, we will throw them into the rivers, and though your mountains produce gold, we will throw it into the dust. We do not covet your valuables. You fly and leap like savages, we have horse-drawn carriages. You drink through your noses, we have rice and wine. Let us change your customs. You cut your hair, we wear hats; when you talk, you sound like birds. We have examinations and books. Let us teach you the knowledge of the proper laws ... Do you not want to escape from the savagery of the outer islands and gaze upon the house of civilization? Do you want to discard your garments of leaves and grass and wear flowered robes embroidered with mountains and dragons? Have you understood?"
"Narrating an Unequal Relationship: How Premodern Viet Literati Explained their Kingdom's Relationship with 'the North'" | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
Tai Words and the Place of the Tai in the Vietnamese Past | Le Minh Khai - Academia.edu
A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1998origin.pdf
http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/chamberlain1992black.pdf
