Hindu hardliners protest Kashmir tweets in Modi's home state

[Paitoo]

A little more than that, but yes, this is a familiar model and it is increasingly unsaleable.

Take the cue from the complex entity and let us move forward. There are three things that are essential in that context.

One, the decision-maker must surround himself by carefully selected experts, and must avoid amateurs from his background or type of weltanschauung like the plague.

Two, he or she must work through the consequences of any decision promoted by those experts, and be convinced that the consequences, first, do not harm any citizen, second, have no side-effects, third, are 'good' for the country in the medium term.

Three, nothing, NOTHING should be done for grand effect. That aspect of a situation should not be considered even to a minute extent.

Would you agree, and would you also agree that the NDA and its leader have failed on these three points?

1. Unfortunately in our politics, there are so many people to be kept happy, you are bound to end up with some people you don't want. This is a party agnostic phenomenon and is not going to go away any time soon.

2. This requires intellectual depth and to a certain extent a strong, independent character. What gets attributed as strength to Modi is actually the attitude of 'bulldoze it through, baad mein dekha jayega". These two are not the same thing.

3. Unfortunately this too is not going away any time soon. Blowing things out of proportion is our national sport

By these yardsticks most governments have failed repeatedly and that is why after 75 years of independence we are still a third world country. With NDA the contrast is more stark because because they are victims of their own exaggerrations.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1. Unfortunately in our politics, there are so many people to be kept happy, you are bound to end up with some people you don't want. This is a party agnostic phenomenon and is not going to go away any time soon.

2. This requires intellectual depth and to a certain extent a strong, independent character. What gets attributed as strength to Modi is actually the attitude of 'bulldoze it through, baad mein dekha jayega". These two are not the same thing.

3. Unfortunately this too is not going away any time soon. Blowing things out of proportion is our national sport

By these yardsticks most governments have failed repeatedly and that is why after 75 years of independence we are still a third world country. With NDA the contrast is more stark because because they are victims of their own exaggerrations.

I find myself in almost complete agreement with your views. There are several others, not a huge number, but there, and firm in their beliefs, on this forum, and it is encouraging to know that we exist.

There are two types of Pakistani members; those who recognise these differences among Indians, and those who declare roundly, with little or no grounds cited, that Gandhi and Savarkar, Nehru and Vajpayee were two sides of the same coin. There is little point in combating the latter, and over the years, it is my policy to put the most virulent opponents of Indians, specifically Hindu Indians, on my ignore list, and to be scrupulously polite with the more tolerable kind, while being open and engaging with the people who are open to discussion. I hope you will not find it surprising that there are a number of that sort, who are still open to reasonable discussion.

 

[Paitoo]

I hope you will not find it surprising that there are a number of that sort, who are still open to reasonable discussion.

Absolutely.
We Indians collectively have not been doing ourselves a favour by our constant online self praise and attention seeking attitude. Had we been more grounded, we would find more people willing to engage with us in a civil manner, and that includes online Pakistanis. We have even made bitter enemies of the online Chinese who despite the mild historic tensions were more or less indifferent to us.

Just like I don't want to stereotype Pakistanis, I don't want to stereotype Indians either. But I do wish that we get off our new found belief that India is an unstoppable resurrected Phoenix sitting at the centre of the universe. Not a single statistic validates that image.

 

[xeuss]

But I do wish that we get off our new found belief that India is an unstoppable resurrected Phoenix sitting at the centre of the universe. Not a single statistic validates that image.

I beg to differ this is a new found belief. This has always been around - the fantasy that the whole world revolves around India. I cringe reading the fanciful statistics that are doctored to show that the whole world is run by Indians.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I beg to differ this is a new found belief. This has always been around - the fantasy that the whole world revolves around India. I cringe reading the fanciful statistics that are doctored to show that the whole world is run by Indians.

The point is that earlier, it was a sentiment of the lunatic fringe. Now it has moved to the centre.

 

[satyamev]

Absolutely.
We Indians collectively have not been doing ourselves a favour by our constant online self praise and attention seeking attitude. Had we been more grounded, we would find more people willing to engage with us in a civil manner, and that includes online Pakistanis. We have even made bitter enemies of the online Chinese who despite the mild historic tensions were more or less indifferent to us.

Just like I don't want to stereotype Pakistanis, I don't want to stereotype Indians either. But I do wish that we get off our new found belief that India is an unstoppable resurrected Phoenix sitting at the centre of the universe. Not a single statistic validates that image.

you were doing well then you decided to write a prejudiced tirade. Not a well balanced argument.
I have worked with Chinese not just met them online, and I can say they also come in all varieties. From the very pompous and vain to the totally normal.
Normal non tourist Indians (south asians) actually have some much better qualities, like we treat guests very well , not expecting anything in return.
And many Indians discover how good our country is after staying abroad for sometime. Totally middle class experience here. Person from a pind in Punjab, going straight to Canada might not agree.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Absolutely.
We Indians collectively have not been doing ourselves a favour by our constant online self praise and attention seeking attitude. Had we been more grounded, we would find more people willing to engage with us in a civil manner, and that includes online Pakistanis. We have even made bitter enemies of the online Chinese who despite the mild historic tensions were more or less indifferent to us.

Just like I don't want to stereotype Pakistanis, I don't want to stereotype Indians either. But I do wish that we get off our new found belief that India is an unstoppable resurrected Phoenix sitting at the centre of the universe. Not a single statistic validates that image.

You would have got three positive ratings, if I had not been sceptical about new members and wanted to see their consistency of outlook.

 

[Paitoo]

I beg to differ this is a new found belief. This has always been around - the fantasy that the whole world revolves around India. I cringe reading the fanciful statistics that are doctored to show that the whole world is run by Indians.

Perhaps you are right. If I jog my memory to the pre internet era, I do recall instances of Indians indulging in self praise, but mostly restricted to achievements of the diaspora and related to Yoga / Spirituality etc. Otherwise we were accused of being cynical, fatalistic and overly critical, which earned us the sobriquet of 'Hindu rate of growth'. There was nothing in our education that taught us to be arrogant or uncivil in public.

 

[Paitoo]

you were doing well then you decided to write a prejudiced tirade. Not a well balanced argument.
I have worked with Chinese not just met them online, and I can say they also come in all varieties. From the very pompous and vain to the totally normal.
Normal non tourist Indians (south asians) actually have some much better qualities, like we treat guests very well , not expecting anything in return.
And many Indians discover how good our country is after staying abroad for sometime. Totally middle class experience here. Person from a pind in Punjab, going straight to Canada might not agree.

I have already said that I am not trying to stereotype Indians. But the ones who are on social media need to curb their tendency to make everything India centric. They are the face of the country, not the hospitable chachaji in a small Indian village.

Chinese and Pakistanis come in all varieties too. In fact I recall the Chinese govt had published an official advisory for Chinese citizens on how to behave as tourists in foreign countries. But we have to raise our own standards publicly instead of benchmarking with someone else.

 

[Joe Shearer]

you were doing well then you decided to write a prejudiced tirade. Not a well balanced argument.
I have worked with Chinese not just met them online, and I can say they also come in all varieties. From the very pompous and vain to the totally normal.
Normal non tourist Indians (south asians) actually have some much better qualities, like we treat guests very well , not expecting anything in return.
And many Indians discover how good our country is after staying abroad for sometime. Totally middle class experience here. Person from a pind in Punjab, going straight to Canada might not agree.

True, true.

I would like to point out that on an international forum like this, it is preferable to stick to criticism of our own, than ever offering an opinion on the affairs of others. If we were to do that, and people have done that profusely in the past, it leads to the incitement of a veritable rabble to incoherent fury, and to a compulsion on the administration to police such opinion-holders. As I mentioned, we have been through two different purges in the past; the anaemic forum that you see today is the result after those purges.

So if we seem more critical of India and of Indian policies, that is the correct position to take. Railing at others, or puffing ourselves up, neither of these works.

About Indians being better than they are shown to be, goes without saying, almost, as the nasty remarks are primarily directed at extreme opinion of extremist Indians; it is only after that that keyboard script kiddies, mostly teenagers or people in their twenties, decide to think that this is an open license to kill Indians on line, and react with incoherent and alarming fury.

Far from thinking @DrJekyll a writer of a prejudiced tirade, I think that he has summed up the deep scepticism about Modi and his government that some of us share.

To the extent that you have declared your intention to judge every item, every report on merit, nobody will disagree with your position.

In principle.

Why you believe that such an incompetent administration has done something right, even on the principle that even a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day, is unfathomable to those of us who see no merit in the Sangh Parivar.

I note that you are willing to see the faults of this regime in perspective, and also the gainst of this regime. No comment.

 

[satyamev]

True, true.

I would like to point out that on an international forum like this, it is preferable to stick to criticism of our own, than ever offering an opinion on the affairs of others. If we were to do that, and people have done that profusely in the past, it leads to the incitement of a veritable rabble to incoherent fury, and to a compulsion on the administration to police such opinion-holders. As I mentioned, we have been through two different purges in the past; the anaemic forum that you see today is the result after those purges.

So if we seem more critical of India and of Indian policies, that is the correct position to take. Railing at others, or puffing ourselves up, neither of these works.

About Indians being better than they are shown to be, goes without saying, almost, as the nasty remarks are primarily directed at extreme opinion of extremist Indians; it is only after that that keyboard script kiddies, mostly teenagers or people in their twenties, decide to think that this is an open license to kill Indians on line, and react with incoherent and alarming fury.

Far from thinking @DrJekyll a writer of a prejudiced tirade, I think that he has summed up the deep scepticism about Modi and his government that some of us share.

To the extent that you have declared your intention to judge every item, every report on merit, nobody will disagree with your position.

In principle.

Why you believe that such an incompetent administration has done something right, even on the principle that even a stopped clock shows the correct time twice a day, is unfathomable to those of us who see no merit in the Sangh Parivar.

I note that you are willing to see the faults of this regime in perspective, and also the gainst of this regime. No comment.

nicely put.
But I have seen the alternative and I don't see rahul baba as a better replacement. He hasn't done a shred of real work in his life. No job , no administrative, nothing.
Mamta was our rail minister, we have seen her work. Probably scare away all the industry from India. Who closes a half built Tata plant ? The whole world wants tata to invest.
Akhilesh yadav ?
If you want the bjp out , you have to stick your neck out give your choice as the PM.
And also which party would call the shots- congress under the highly experienced Sonia ?
Can't sit on the fence.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

View attachment 815089

LOL From left to right: @INDIAPOSITIVE @Jackdaws @GHALIB

They seem to be dressed up for mehndi.

 

[Joe Shearer]

nicely put.
But I have seen the alternative and I don't see rahul baba as a better replacement. He hasn't done a shred of real work in his life. No job , no administrative, nothing.

Help me with this.

Why does loathing the Sangh Parivar and all of its poisonous offshoots point straight at a Congress supporter? Worse, at a Rahul Gandhi/Priyanka Vadera supporter?

Mamta was our rail minister, we have seen her work. Probably scare away all the industry from India. Who closes a half built Tata plant ? The whole world wants tata to invest.
Akhilesh yadav ?
If you want the bjp out , you have to stick your neck out give your choice as the PM.

Tell me, would you rather that this wrecking crew continued, than a silly bunch of wool-gathering idiots? Are you seriously saying that Hitler is the only choice, because Neville Chamberlain is such a blithering ***?

And also which party would call the shots- congress under the highly experienced Sonia ?
Can't sit on the fence.

Any party other than one that wants to disenfranchise 17% of the population, and treats another 20% with contempt.

They seem to be dressed up for mehndi.

At some stage, you have to ask yourselves the plain question - do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?

 

[satyamev]

Help me with this.

Why does loathing the Sangh Parivar and all of its poisonous offshoots point straight at a Congress supporter? Worse, at a Rahul Gandhi/Priyanka Vadera supporter?

Tell me, would you rather that this wrecking crew continued, than a silly bunch of wool-gathering idiots? Are you seriously saying that Hitler is the only choice, because Neville Chamberlain is such a blithering ***?

Any party other than one that wants to disenfranchise 17% of the population, and treats another 20% with contempt.


At some stage, you have to ask yourselves the plain question - do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?

I get your point but you have avoided my very direct question.
Who in your view should be the PM from a non bjp government ?
Its a very important post. We have seen the damage a guy like Manmohan Singh with his "coalition compulsions" and general incompetence did to India.
He couldn't even make peace with the neighbors. Mumbai 2008.
I have no illusions about Modi but imagine the virus outbreak under Manmohan singh.
He wouldn't be able to take a decision for years.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I get your point but you have avoided my very direct question.
Who in your view should be the PM from a non bjp government ?
Its a very important post. We have seen the damage a guy like Manmohan Singh with his "coalition compulsions" and general incompetence did to India.
He couldn't even make peace with the neighbors. Mumbai 2008.
I have no illusions about Modi but imagine the virus outbreak under Manmohan singh.
He wouldn't be able to take a decision for years.

Of course I avoided it!

Why should it be my business to opine on the future leadership, when there are 900 million people voting?

My voice was raised, and has been raised for some 19 years now, against the bigotry that is the essence of one faction. It was not raised FOR a particular brand of politics that should replace them. Am I to understand that to stand against an evil grouping, it is necessary to replace them, either in person or through nomination?

If you think about that, you will see the fallacy involved. That would imply that no injustice, no hatred or hate speech should be criticised, unless there is a suitable replacement available.

In order words, anything is preferable to a gap in administration; people may be killed, maimed, assaulted, and have their civic rights taken away, their religious practices may be attacked, their identity as Indian citizens questioned, but we cannot speak up, because Rahul Gandhi is a wimp, and his pretentious sister believes that she can out-think all others politically, when all that she has achieved is to set on edge the teeth of her entire party administration. Because Akhilesh Yadav may turn out to be as caste-oriented and as corrupt as his father was. Because Mamata is a prize *** and has an enviable track record of repulsing business ventures with no thought for the consequences. Because Stalin is embroiled in politics of his state and has no way to divide his time between his state, and the centre of his power, and any kind of responsible role at the centre.

In simple terms, let us continue this process of doing permanent and irreparable harm to the country because the incumbent seems to be very attractive to the Indian electorate.

I hope you see the falsity of the premises based on which you asked who the replacement should be. In very short, I have not even thought about it, because that is not my business, that is the business of the politicians.

I get your point but you have avoided my very direct question.
Who in your view should be the PM from a non bjp government ?
Its a very important post. We have seen the damage a guy like Manmohan Singh with his "coalition compulsions" and general incompetence did to India.
He couldn't even make peace with the neighbors. Mumbai 2008.
I have no illusions about Modi but imagine the virus outbreak under Manmohan singh.
He wouldn't be able to take a decision for years.

I disagree with your misgivings about Manmohan Singh, but that is not the point of the discussion. That is a separate set of conversations, akin to a possible conversation on, say, Gandhi, or Subhas Bose, or on Nehru and his role in the country after independence. Looking at his inability to manage a difficult coalition in no way makes a difference to an assessment of Modi and the BJP that recognises that, whoever else might be free to govern the country, this one is not to do that.