Hillary Clinton Confession - To all PDF members - See this

[roadrunner]

There is quite a lot of denial on here.

The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam

If the Americans did not do this, the Saudis would not have been influential in the region.

The Afghans would have fought and eventually defeated the Soviets without American aid or a Saudi education.

The execution of this American plan gave rise to the Taliban.

 

[wmdisinfo]

There is quite a lot of denial on here.

The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam

If the Americans did not do this, the Saudis would not have been influential in the region.

The Afghans would have fought and eventually defeated the Soviets without American aid or a Saudi education.

The execution of this American plan gave rise to the Taliban.

US is like a snake who eats his own children but sometime one of the child is clever enough to fight another day like taliban.who is supporting taliban now?where are they getting thier weapons from?simple when u overrun a base you wont find toys u will find ammo and guns which are used against u to defeat u.simple no rocket science the wont ask u before firing whos hands i am in.

 

[S-2]

"The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam"

Did you fall off a turnip truck or do you actively work at displaying your ignorance?

Do you understand the difference between the afghan mujahideen and the afghan taliban?

Do you know who Ahmad Shah Masoud would be? Can you EVER imagine him part of the taliban? Last I recall he was at war with the taliban before assassinated yet was a fighter of some renown against the Soviet invasion.

Are you aware the taliban are almost exclusively a pashtun movement founded around 1994 in Urozgan/Kandahar?

Think Tank eh?

 

[jeypore]

"The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam"

Did you fall off a turnip truck or do you actively work at displaying your ignorance?

Do you understand the difference between the afghan mujahideen and the afghan taliban?

Do you know who Ahmad Shah Masoud would be? Can you EVER imagine him part of the taliban? Last I recall he was at war with the taliban before assassinated yet was a fighter of some renown against the Soviet invasion.

Are you aware the taliban is a almost exclusively pashtun movement founded around 1994 in Urozgan/Kandahar?

Think Tank eh?

I gave thanks to that because it has been a while for me at reading insane things around here!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[S-2]

Jeypore,

Did I ever tell you how MUCH I enjoy your avatar?

 

[roadrunner]

"The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam"

Did you fall off a turnip truck or do you actively work at displaying your ignorance?

Good piece of wit there. I salute you old man.

Do you understand the difference between the afghan mujahideen and the afghan taliban?

Do you know who Ahmad Shah Masoud would be? Can you EVER imagine him part of the taliban? Last I recall he was at war with the taliban before assassinated yet was a fighter of some renown against the Soviet invasion.

Massoud was not a part of the Taliban.

The Afghan Mujahideen splintered into those that joined the Northern Alliance (Massoud), and those that joined the Afghan Taliban (Hekmatyrar and some others).

So the Afghan Mujahideen gave rise to both the Afghan Taliban and the Afghan Northern Alliance.

Are you aware the taliban are almost exclusively a pashtun movement founded around 1994 in Urozgan/Kandahar?

Think Tank eh?

Agreed there genius. What would be the implication of that? That the Afghan Mujahideen could not give rise to the Afghan Taliban?

If Pashtuns were part of the Afghan Mujahideen then they could become part of the Afghan Taliban. Logic, n'est pas?

 

[Chogy]

If Pashtuns were part of the Afghan Mujahideen then they could become part of the Afghan Taliban. Logic, n'est pas?

It's quite a stretch to go from a multi-nationally supported mujahideen force, eager to fight the Soviets and expel them, and then declare that they all morphed into the Taliban (a different organization) and simultaneously ignore the roles played by Pakistan herself in this mess.

It's so much easier to simply say "Amerikka made the Taliban." That is so much more palatable and easier to swallow. Problems must always be external, right? It's a standard ploy. Route the anger and angst of an irritated population to outside, shady forces. Deflect them. This allows politicians to retain power.

Iran does this brilliantly. All domestic problems are the result of nefarious and shady outsiders... Zionists, Mossad, CIA, America, ad nauseum.

 

[Patriot]

So S-2 is finally making distinction between Good Taliban and Bad Taliban.Regardless - They all were Jihadi scum.

 

[S-2]

"What would be the implication of that?..."

I believe Chogy has elucidated the rationales displayed at def.pk by you and others beautifully. Or too many here are just very poorly educated about their own neighborhood.

"That the Afghan Mujahideen could not give rise to the Afghan Taliban?"

Let's not forget so quickly what you actually said. Read again-

"...The Americans created the Taliban because they were the main force behind the idea of giving the Soviet Union its Vietnam..."

There's a salient difference between a multi-ethnic anti-Soviet mujahideen of 1979-80 and the near pashto-exclusive taliban of 1994. That pashtun warriors from one era might fight among taliban forces in another era doesn't make those two distinct entities one and the same.

Further, your intent to pin America solely while obfuscating the difference between mujahideen and taliban is a convenient dodge of reality when it was Saudi money, chinese weapons and the assistance of others contributing to the anti-Soviet mujahideen.

 

[gambit]

It's quite a stretch to go from a multi-nationally supported mujahideen force, eager to fight the Soviets and expel them, and then declare that they all morphed into the Taliban (a different organization)...

There's a salient difference between a multi-ethnic anti-Soviet mujahideen of 1979-80 and the near pashto-exclusive taliban of 1994. That pashtun warriors from one era might fight among taliban forces in another era doesn't make those two distinct entities one and the same.

A long time ago...I, along with several others, went to Spangdahlem to recover a jet to send back to Upper Heyford. I had some spare time and went to see a high school friend at Baumholder. Off post...We met up and made small talks over good beers with a retiring Sgt Major who predicted that in the future, we will return to Afghanistan for some necessities and that what we did 'today' will be forgotten and even hold against US.

Guys...It does not take a genius to see the differences between the mujahedeens of yesterday's Afghanistan to the Taliban of today's Afghanistan. This deliberate blurring of the two is necessary in order to make effective the rhetorics condemning America. The fact that such blurring of the two is intellectually dishonest is irrelevant to these people. Far easier on one's mind to just conflate the two.

 

[American Pakistani]

Atleast Americans remember this, Great.

 

[T-Faz]

S-2, dont forget this though.

1984-1994: CIA Funds Militant Textbooks for Afghanistan

The US, through USAID and the University of Nebraska, spends millions of dollars developing and printing textbooks for Afghan schoolchildren. The textbooks are “filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.” For instance, children are “taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles, and land mines.” Lacking any alternative, millions of these textbooks are used long after 1994; the Taliban will still be using them in 2001. In 2002, the US will start producing less violent versions of the same books, which President Bush says will have “respect for human dignity, instead of indoctrinating students with fanaticism and bigotry.” (He will fail to mention who created those earlier books.) [WASHINGTON POST, 3/23/2002; CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION, 5/6/2002] A University of Nebraska academic named Thomas Gouttierre leads the textbook program. Journalist Robert Dreyfuss will later reveal that although funding for Gouttierre’s work went through USAID, it was actually paid for by the CIA. Unocal will pay Gouttierre to work with the Taliban (see December 1997) and he will host visits of Taliban leaders to the US, including trips in 1997 and 1999 (see December 4, 1997 and July-August 1999). [DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 328]

October 1994: CIA and ISI Allegedly Give Help and Secret Cache of Weapons to Taliban

The CIA supposedly backs the Taliban around the same time the Pakistani ISI starts strongly backing them (see Spring-Autumn 1994 and 1994-1997). According to a senior Pakistani intelligence source interviewed by British journalist Simon Reeves, the CIA provides Pakistan satellite information giving the secret locations of scores of Soviet trucks that contain vast amounts of arms and ammunition. The trucks were hidden in caves at the end of the Afghan war. Pakistan then gives this information to the Taliban. “The astonishing speed with which the Taliban conquered Afghanistan is explained by the tens of thousands of weapons found in these trucks….” [REEVE, 1999, PP. 191] Journalist Steve Coll will later similarly note that at this time, the Taliban gain access to “an enormous ISI-supplied weapons dump” in caves near the border town of Spin Boldak. It has enough weapons left over from the Soviet-Afghan war to supply tens of thousands of soldiers. [COLL, 2004, PP. 291] Another account will point out that by early 1995, the Taliban was equipped with armored tanks, ten combat airplanes, and other heavy weapons. They are thus able to conquer about a third of the country by February 1995. “According to the files at one European intelligence agency, these military advances can be explained mainly by ‘strong military training, not only by the Pakistani services, but also by American military advisers working under humanitarian cover.’” Later in 1995, a Turkish newsweekly will claim to have learned from a classified report given to the Turkish government that the CIA, ISI, and Saudi Arabia were all collaborating to build up the Taliban so they could quickly unite Afghanistan. [LABEVIERE, 1999, PP. 262-263]

October 1994: US Gives Very Early Support to Taliban

Afghanistan has been mired in civil war ever since the withdrawal of Soviet troops in 1989. The Taliban arise organically in early 1994, but are soon co-opted by the Pakistani ISI (see Spring-Autumn 1994). By mid-October 1994, the Taliban takes over the town of Kandahar in southern Afghanistan. Before the end of the month, John Monjo, the US ambassador to Pakistan, makes a tour of areas controlled by the Taliban with Pakistan’s Interior Minister Nasrullah Babar, who is said to have been been a force behind the Taliban’s creation. The State Department issues a press release calling the victory of the “students” a “positive development likely to bring stability back to the area.” [LABEVIERE, 1999, PP. 261-262]

1994-1997: US Supports Taliban Rise to Power

Journalist Ahmed Rashid, a long-time expert on Pakistan and Afghanistan, will later write in a book about the Taliban that the US supported the Taliban in its early years. “Between 1994 and 1996, the USA supported the Taliban politically through its allies Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, essentially because Washington viewed the Taliban as anti-Iranian, anti-Shia, and pro-Western. Between 1995 and 1997, US support was even more driven because of its backing for the Unocal [pipeline] project.” He notes that many US diplomats “saw them as messianic do-gooders—like born-again Christians from the American Bible Belt.” [DREYFUSS, 2005, PP. 326] Selig Harrison, a long-time regional expert with extensive CIA ties, will later say that he complained at the time about how Pakistani ISI support of the Taliban was backed by the CIA. “I warned them that we were creating a monster.” [TIMES OF INDIA, 3/7/2001] There is evidence the CIA may have helped supply the Taliban with weapons during the first months of their rise to power (see October 1994).

Scum from all sides were involved in this.

 

[roadrunner]

It's quite a stretch to go from a multi-nationally supported mujahideen force, eager to fight the Soviets and expel them, and then declare that they all morphed into the Taliban (a different organization) and simultaneously ignore the roles played by Pakistan herself in this mess.

Don't be silly.

I did not say they ALL morphed into the Taliban.

A lot of the Pashtun members of the Afghan Mujahideen did morph into the Taliban though. Hekmatyar and many others are examples of this. Jalaluddin Haqqani was Mujahideen turned Taliban. Most of them were.

I don't ignore Pakistan's contribution to the Taliban at all. Pakistan gathered up all the Pashtun mujahideen fighters and said, we'll support you if you bring stability to Afghanistan. But these Mujahideen were a consequence of America's anti Soviet policy.

It's so much easier to simply say "Amerikka made the Taliban." That is so much more palatable and easier to swallow. Problems must always be external, right? It's a standard ploy. Route the anger and angst of an irritated population to outside, shady forces. Deflect them. This allows politicians to retain power.

The presence of instability and fanatics is a consequence of US foreign policy. Some portion goes to the Soviets, the Saudis and Pakistan.

Iran does this brilliantly. All domestic problems are the result of nefarious and shady outsiders... Zionists, Mossad, CIA, America, ad nauseum.

Iran and Pakistan are two different countries. This is the first thing for you to realize.

 

[roadrunner]

The cases being made here are very weak. The US anti Soviet policy is the cause of instability in the region.

If the US did not get involved in the region, madrassas would not have sprung up in Pakistan giving a solid Saudi education.

The Afghans would have fought the Soviets, the war would have been over in 10 years. There would follow a power struggle for a decade or so before the strongest group wins and its recovery would have begun.

Instead it is a total mess because of foreign interference (US and Soviet).