Heli crashes in Khyber agency

[air marshal]

 

[Mujahid]

 

[AVIAN]

Indeed very sad! RIP for the aircrew

 

[S-2]

May the souls of all those lost, including in the suicide bomber attack, rest in peace. May their families and friends find comfort in the word of the Lord.

May the taliban find everlasting HELLFIRE at each and every turn.

In this we ask you Lord...Amen.

I'm very sorry to all for these losses. They pile up quick.

I try to follow these battles closely but only today understood that we lost eight men and twenty three wounded when the taliban AGAIN assaulted a combat outpost last October in Nuristan called KEATING.

Very similar to Wanat from last July and there likely lay the confusion for me. Nearly three hundred we estimated. Our guys fought from 0600hrs until sunset and had taliban in the wire...again. This time the ANA with them buckled and ran. Their bodies were found well outside the wire later.

The land is so similar on both sides. We couldn't air assault reinforcements in because of the fusillade of fire being taken all day. The nearest LZ was four kilometers away and, yeah, the taliban tried to interdict those guys once on the ground. Fortunately we lost no air crews but AH-64 gunship runs probably saved KEATING. It was a VERY close call and good men died at a base that should never have been located where it was and was slated to be shut down...but wasn't in time.

God love them all for what they do.

Thanks.

 

[Blackpearl]

I think when cobra crashed, Army hastilly launched the rescue operation. They must have reconnitered the area, the crash site, for any presence of Taliban. Last year in June, when an Mi-17 crashed in the outskirts of Peshawar, Taliban, this Mangal Bagh group, immediately brought heavy weapons, to the crash site, to deny the access of Army to the crash site or wreckage.

Army's Bell 412 helicvopters are having FLIR systems installed, working day and night. They must be flown at a safe height to get the picture of the area. What Army could aslo done, is to ask US Force commander in Afghanistan, to vector any one of the flying UAVs nearby, to report over the area, and give feedback for any presence of hostile elements. PAF might also be able to give some assisstance for sweeping the area.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I think when cobra crashed, Army hastilly launched the rescue operation. They must have reconnitered the area, the crash site, for any presence of Taliban. Last year in June, when an Mi-17 crashed in the outskirts of Peshawar, Taliban, this Mangal Bagh group, immediately brought heavy weapons, to the crash site, to deny the access of Army to the crash site or wreckage.

Army's Bell 412 helicvopters are having FLIR systems installed, working day and night. They must be flown at a safe height to get the picture of the area. What Army could aslo done, is to ask US Force commander in Afghanistan, to vector any one of the flying UAVs nearby, to report over the area, and give feedback for any presence of hostile elements. PAF might also be able to give some assisstance for sweeping the area.

Well PAF has its own UAVs, which can be used for this purpose.

And the normal tactic is that helis above are there in such rescue missions to keep an eye and provide cover. In this case also air cover was provided but you can't swarm the area with helis all around, but as its a hilly terrain and vegetation grows, it becomes little hard to see everything.

2ndly, such rescue missions are to be done hurriedly, as to get the bodies of the pilots secured, if the Taliban get their hands on them, you know well how the desecrate the bodies of martyred army men.

And very soon, and in some helis already, Gatling guns have been installed where the MG3s used to be, this will provide additional major fire power to the helis equipped with them.

 

[S-2]

Have to wonder if there's something particularly interesting about that valley that deserves such concern by the taliban. Don't know the terrain particulars either but a lot of those valleys there are only so many ingress and egress routes for both fast-movers and army aviation. It reads like the Cobras had made initial gun runs and had departed the valley and re-entered when the taliban opened up. Could easily have been anything from AKs up through rockets, DshK 12.7 HMG or even recoilless rifles if the target held stationary at all.

All speculation.

There are a lot of UAVs of all types up on both sides of the border but there's a lot more land than UAVs. KEATING got hit in part because it lost UAV coverage in the days leading up to the attack.

Thanks.

 

[Blackpearl]

Well PAF has its own UAVs, which can be used for this purpose.

And the normal tactic is that helis above are there in such rescue missions to keep an eye and provide cover. In this case also air cover was provided but you can't swarm the area with helis all around, but as its a hilly terrain and vegetation grows, it becomes little hard to see everything.

2ndly, such rescue missions are to be done hurriedly, as to get the bodies of the pilots secured, if the Taliban get their hands on them, you know well how the desecrate the bodies of martyred army men.

And very soon, and in some helis already, Gatling guns have been installed where the MG3s used to be, this will provide additional major fire power to the helis equipped with them.

well said
i have another thing in mind. the attack on the taliban hideout must be launched by at least a pair of cobras, closely followed by a UTILITY helicopter, Bell 412 may be. gunships always work in pais or more, never alone. utility helicopters follow, to pick up the crew of cobra, as cobra is a single engine, and if goes down for any reason. now among all these helicopters, their must be a utility helicopter Bell 412/Ecuriuel or Allouette, designated as C2 bird (command and communication), having the air task commander on board. This C2 bird fly well above the other helicopters, observing other helicopters. This helicopter is fitted with better recon equipoment, FLIR, laser target desigbator etc. I am not sure, if in Army aviation, this is done or not.

If a C2 bird had been up there, once cobras were engageing targets, and when one cobra goes down its natural that all other helicopters exit the area. however, C2 bird keeps on flying high, getting vital information about the area, and relaying it baCK. while still over the area, that bird may coordinate and direct following rescue effort, and guide them about area hot or cold.

 

[TaimiKhan]

well said
i have another thing in mind. the attack on the taliban hideout must be launched by at least a pair of cobras, closely followed by a UTILITY helicopter, Bell 412 may be. gunships always work in pais or more, never alone. utility helicopters follow, to pick up the crew of cobra, as cobra is a single engine, and if goes down for any reason. now among all these helicopters, their must be a utility helicopter Bell 412/Ecuriuel or Allouette, designated as C2 bird (command and communication), having the air task commander on board. This C2 bird fly well above the other helicopters, observing other helicopters. This helicopter is fitted with better recon equipoment, FLIR, laser target desigbator etc. I am not sure, if in Army aviation, this is done or not.

If a C2 bird had been up there, once cobras were engageing targets, and when one cobra goes down its natural that all other helicopters exit the area. however, C2 bird keeps on flying high, getting vital information about the area, and relaying it baCK. while still over the area, that bird may coordinate and direct following rescue effort, and guide them about area hot or cold.

Not a bad idea, but problem is scarcity if the air borne platforms. Cobras mostly do attack in pairs, as whenever they come to attack in the Khyber Agency area, they pass right above my home, and mostly they are in pairs. But sometime single platform has to attack also due to the low availability of cobras.

Bell 412s or any other good platform equipped with Gatling guns manned by gunners on either side of the heli, can be a devastating tool as the gunners would have a very wide view of the area below and can observe pretty much more then a cobra gunner can and they can attack the moment they observe something.

I believe that is the reason that Gatling guns have been brought in to make them into attack platforms.

 

[rizhussain44]

Inna Lillah he wa Inna alehe Rajioon

 

[HAIDER]

May the souls of all those lost, including in the suicide bomber attack, rest in peace. May their families and friends find comfort in the word of the Lord.

May the taliban find everlasting HELLFIRE at each and every turn.

In this we ask you Lord...Amen.

I'm very sorry to all for these losses. They pile up quick.

I try to follow these battles closely but only today understood that we lost eight men and twenty three wounded when the taliban AGAIN assaulted a combat outpost last October in Nuristan called KEATING.

Very similar to Wanat from last July and there likely lay the confusion for me. Nearly three hundred we estimated. Our guys fought from 0600hrs until sunset and had taliban in the wire...again. This time the ANA with them buckled and ran. Their bodies were found well outside the wire later.

The land is so similar on both sides. We couldn't air assault reinforcements in because of the fusillade of fire being taken all day. The nearest LZ was four kilometers away and, yeah, the taliban tried to interdict those guys once on the ground. Fortunately we lost no air crews but AH-64 gunship runs probably saved KEATING. It was a VERY close call and good men died at a base that should never have been located where it was and was slated to be shut down...but wasn't in time.

God love them all for what they do.

Thanks.

S2 do you notice same battle strategy on both side of border by these militant or Pakistan side militants are kinda rookies compare to Afghan ones ?

 

[S-2]

"S2 do you notice same battle strategy on both side of border by these militant or Pakistan side militants are kinda rookies compare to Afghan ones ?"

I generally subscribe to the notion of...

"...that which doesn't kill you can only make you stronger..."

There isn't enough information coming from your ISPR for me to guage the nature of the fight in FATA. I really don't have a feel for tactics nor tempo as seen at the brigade or lower realm. Nor should I. Nor would I comment on such.

On the American side, it's been easier only because of open-source info. We've generally granted near-unlimited access to our troops in Nuristan and Konar to those journalists that are willing to take the risk. Many have, to include camera crews, so we've gotten some excellent footage to look at. However, those are still only snap-shots of the broader picture from Khost/Paktika/Paktia north through Nangahar to Konar/Nuristan. Further, however generally rugged the land (and it's ALL rugged terrain), it gets worse as you head north.

How the militants have evolved is impossible for me to say. I imagine it varies greatly among groupings and is highly dependant upon each group's personal battle experience. Some have not fought much. Others have fought a lot and on both sides of the border. If so, they've rapidly learned or died. See my initial comment about evolution and dying.

Thanks.

 

[fatman17]

Have to wonder if there's something particularly interesting about that valley that deserves such concern by the taliban. Don't know the terrain particulars either but a lot of those valleys there are only so many ingress and egress routes for both fast-movers and army aviation. It reads like the Cobras had made initial gun runs and had departed the valley and re-entered when the taliban opened up. Could easily have been anything from AKs up through rockets, DshK 12.7 HMG or even recoilless rifles if the target held stationary at all.

All speculation.

There are a lot of UAVs of all types up on both sides of the border but there's a lot more land than UAVs. KEATING got hit in part because it lost UAV coverage in the days leading up to the attack.

Thanks.

Tirah valley serves two purposes for the militants - to retreat and hide in the rough hilly terrain and secondly, to re-group and launch raiding parties into the khyber valley as unfortunately witnessed in the last few days.

the army ops of the last 6-8 months have greatly reduced the 'area of operation' for the militants - they are now esconded in such areas in the FATA. the army shd have planned these 'ops' in the Tirah a bit better (like previous ops) or maybe the intell failed to ascertain the strength and capability of the militants hiding here - a very hard lesson learned here!

 

[The Patriot]

May their souls rest in peace. And may Allah give their families patience and peace. I had the pleasure to meet Brig. Abbas two years ago when he was visiting Istanbul along with his family. He was really a great man, gentle, very friendly. he used to have smile on his face. I can't forget my first encounter with him. If i remember correctly he is survived by two daughters, one is in sixth and the other in third grad. My prayers are with them.
Couldn't stop crying while seeing his funeral video.
Allah un ko jannate firdos mein jaga naseeb farmye aur un ke lawahikeen ko sabar. Amin.

 

[araz]

Tirah valley serves two purposes for the militants - to retreat and hide in the rough hilly terrain and secondly, to re-group and launch raiding parties into the khyber valley as unfortunately witnessed in the last few days.

the army ops of the last 6-8 months have greatly reduced the 'area of operation' for the militants - they are now esconded in such areas in the FATA. the army shd have planned these 'ops' in the Tirah a bit better (like previous ops) or maybe the intell failed to ascertain the strength and capability of the militants hiding here - a very hard lesson learned here!

Fatman
Is there any info on the current situation with our helicopter fleet, as continuous raids in the area would be taking its toll. Are there any reinforcements planned for the fleet? thanks in advance.
Araz