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Hate-Speech Hypocrites

There is no use debating with him.

Typical response when losing a debate.

More than the Holocaust deniers, it is YOU who throws mud on the memory of the Holocaust by trivializing the anti-Semite label. Holocaust survivors don't chafe at the deniers, because their idiocy can be debunked straight away by facts. But people like you who throw about these labels to hide their own incompetence are the biggest disgrace to the memory of the Holocaust.

Another whining thread. Once again:

There are plenty Holocaust denial videos on youtube.
There are plenty anti Jewish videos on youtube.
There are plenty anti Israel videos on youtube.

No one runs amok because of this, no one bans youtube because of this.

The debate is not about youtube but legislation in various European/Western countries. According to a study at Harvard U, Google has blocked 113 websites deemed anti-Semitic from France and Germany. The question is, why doesn't the same consideration apply to anti-Muslim websites?
 
what about the arab world, oic, pakistan, etc.?????

More, predictable, goal shifting. The debate is about European/Western countries. You asked for examples, I gave, and now you are running amok looking for excuses to justify your preconceived bigotry.
 
so muslim will be happy just in case they r allowed to insult jew and deny holocaust in western countries.
So much so for peace ;)

so muslim will be happy just in case they r allowed to insult jew and deny holocaust in western countries.
So much so for peace ;)
 
Typical response when losing a debate.

More than the Holocaust deniers, it is YOU who throws mud on the memory of the Holocaust by trivializing the anti-Semite label. Holocaust survivors don't chafe at the deniers, because their idiocy can be debunked straight away by facts. But people like you who throw about these labels to hide their own incompetence are the biggest disgrace to the memory of the Holocaust.

More drivel. Fact of the matter is you ARENT debating. Just putting up a charade as a stalwart of free speech and equating the holocaust to hate speech thereby trivializing that event doesnt make it a debate.

Denying the holocaust IS anti-semitism. One cannot express skepticism, look at the facts and come to a conclusion that the holocaust did not happen. If they do, they are either intellectually dishonest denying hard evidence, or they are anti-semitic.

The debate is not about youtube but legislation in various European/Western countries. According to a study at Harvard U, Google has blocked 113 websites deemed anti-Semitic from France and Germany. The question is, why doesn't the same consideration apply to anti-Muslim websites?

What is anti-muslim? Is there a website that talks about Muslims or is it a website that mocks Islam? Whether it is Muslims or Islam, Whatever it is those websites need not be blocked. There are reasons why anti-semitism is considered very seriously in Europe. Cuz they suffer from it, and they killed Jews. Here in India, we dont have any laws against anti-semitism. Recently a guy opened a store called Hitler, with the *** over the I, a swastika. Of course he was a moron, but nazi symbolisms are not banned in India. So it depends where you are talking about. Similarly there are websites that are against black people, indians, chinese etc., All of them are not blocked.

Muslims are not equal to the Jews in this particular case. The Jews actually suffered death. Muslims are just being condemned for their beliefs, their culture, their actions - some of it because of racism and some of it because they dont really integrate and cause trouble for everybody else.

Whether you accept it or not, these are facts.

BTW you've still not answered my question, about the double standard in muslim society where you consider non muslims as inferior. About why in muslim societies you FORCE everyone to do as you wish. So its inevitable that people that come from those cultures bring the same attitudes to the west and demand legislation to lead their lives they did in countries like Saudi Arabia effectively clashing with the native cultures in Europe or elsewhere.

BTW, the only reason people like Anjem Choudhry are going around spewing their BS is because of free speech laws, so I dont think there is any bigotry especially when it comes to freedom of speech.
 
I have a very good answer for that.

Insulting Prophet Mohammed, even though it maybe in a bad taste, does not hurt anybody physically. The only people that harm anyone physically when Mohammed is insulted, are Muslims. Also, it does not particularly point to a tragedy that happened in the past.

Insulting one's mother or sister, posting their inappropriate pictures on a public magazine too does not hurt anyone physically but what will your reaction be if such a thing happens? The west needs to understand that we love our Prophet (P.B.U.H) MORE THEN OUR FAMILY!!

You talk about Holocaust and Jews of our time and that they may have a relative that suffered from the hands of Nazis so their feelings must not be hurt but on the other hand, totally ignore the fact that we care more about our Prophet then our family members and our feelings too get hurt when you mock our beliefs. A simple case of double standards it is.
 
Insulting one's mother or sister, posting their inappropriate pictures on a public magazine too does not hurt anyone physically but what will your reaction be if such a thing happens? The west needs to understand that we love our Prophet (P.B.U.H) MORE THEN OUR FAMILY!!

You talk about Holocaust and Jews of our time and that they may have a relative that suffered from the hands of Nazis so their feelings must not be hurt but on the other hand, totally ignore the fact that we care more about our Prophet then our family members and our feelings too get hurt when you mock our beliefs. A simple case of double standards it is.

These usual suspects don't give a damn about Jews or Muslims. They just use the Israel/Holocaust excuse to unload their hate for Muslims and Islam, all while hiding behind the pretense of 'caring' for Jews.

The worst part is that their shameless abuse of the anti-Semitism card is itself the worst insult to the memory of the Holocaust.
 
There is no use debating with him.

According to him - Everyone who says anything anti-Islam (even if it is just Islam critical) is a racist,bigot and a hypocrite. Further he tries to draw parallels between holocaust denial and speech critical of Islam.

He absolves muslims of all responsibility and he wants them to be accepted for what they are, wherever they immigrate to. But muslims themselves have a culture of intolerance and bigotry, and if you point that out and ask pointed questions - he will call it incompetent debate or racism.

Or he will shift the goalpost repeatedly, and say "We are talking about free speech laws". But what is considered free speech depends to a large extent on how people perceive whatever is being spoken about. And that depends on social perspectives that people hold (who mostly think Islam is superstitious, backward and ridiculous to be blunt) , but he wont agree.

He is just another anti-semitic, extremist muslim who will keep arguing in circles, never accept his faults but blame everyone else. He is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous to the point, that it is pointless arguing with him.

Oh and another one of those techniques he uses is to tell you how awesome he is, and how he has seen and debated the best in the world, in a bid to convey that he is "superior" while trying to hide the fact that he really doesnt have evidence to prove the contrary. Just a waste of time.
Put yourself in the position of being in a Presidential debate. :lol:

The goal is not to convince your opponent of your position but to convince the electorate to vote for you by way of their doubts about the issue. Present your arguments to the readers. Your opponent's dismissal of you does not mean others will do the same. In fact, the more he dismiss you, the worse it gets for him.

Bottom line is this: The muslims wants to be exempted from every criticisms they leveled at anyone about any issue.
 
Insulting one's mother or sister, posting their inappropriate pictures on a public magazine too does not hurt anyone physically but what will your reaction be if such a thing happens? The west needs to understand that we love our Prophet (P.B.U.H) MORE THEN OUR FAMILY!!

You talk about Holocaust and Jews of our time and that they may have a relative that suffered from the hands of Nazis so their feelings must not be hurt but on the other hand, totally ignore the fact that we care more about our Prophet then our family members and our feelings too get hurt when you mock our beliefs. A simple case of double standards it is.
This is not about protecting the Jews' feelings but about some very specific countries whose peoples -- only one generation ago -- committed some very atrocious acts and these laws are designed to be deterrence to anyone who wants to minimize the immorality of these atrocious acts to resurrect the mentality and organizations that committed those acts.
 
More drivel. Fact of the matter is you ARENT debating. Just putting up a charade as a stalwart of free speech and equating the holocaust to hate speech thereby trivializing that event doesnt make it a debate.

Denying the holocaust IS anti-semitism. One cannot express skepticism, look at the facts and come to a conclusion that the holocaust did not happen. If they do, they are either intellectually dishonest denying hard evidence, or they are anti-semitic.
Did you know that institutionalized slavery did not occurred in North America? What really happened was the gross exaggeration of rare mistreatment of immigrant blacks from Africa by a few whites in North America and the American Civil War was actually over British attempt to recover the colonies, not about 'slavery'.

But let me state that I do have a few black friends so I am not a racist. :lol:
 
Put yourself in the position of being in a Presidential debate. :lol:

The goal is not to convince your opponent of your position but to convince the electorate to vote for you by way of their doubts about the issue. Present your arguments to the readers. Your opponent's dismissal of you does not mean others will do the same. In fact, the more he dismiss you, the worse it gets for him.

Bottom line is this: The muslims wants to be exempted from every criticisms they leveled at anyone about any issue.

Obama: The evidence shows that blacks face unequal treatment in the justice system; we must investigate.

Romney: Who cares? Do you know how horrible things are in their native Africa? We all know that blacks, even the ones born here, are not full citizens of this country and do not deserve equal treatment; they only get rights commensurate with their 'real' country. Besides, blacks commit all these crimes all over the place so all blacks need to clean up their mess before we give a damn. As long as there is one black criminal, we will continue to deny equal treatment to all blacks. If any black complains, we will tell them to shut up and look how bad things are in 'their' Africa. Here, look what's happening in Zimbabwe!

Electorate wonders: Has Romney finally lost it altogether?
 
There is no use debating with him.

According to him - Everyone who says anything anti-Islam (even if it is just Islam critical) is a racist,bigot and a hypocrite. Further he tries to draw parallels between holocaust denial and speech critical of Islam.

He absolves muslims of all responsibility and he wants them to be accepted for what they are, wherever they immigrate to. But muslims themselves have a culture of intolerance and bigotry, and if you point that out and ask pointed questions - he will call it incompetent debate or racism.

Or he will shift the goalpost repeatedly, and say "We are talking about free speech laws". But what is considered free speech depends to a large extent on how people perceive whatever is being spoken about. And that depends on social perspectives that people hold (who mostly think Islam is superstitious, backward and ridiculous to be blunt) , but he wont agree.

He is just another anti-semitic, extremist muslim who will keep arguing in circles, never accept his faults but blame everyone else. He is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous to the point, that it is pointless arguing with him.

Oh and another one of those techniques he uses is to tell you how awesome he is, and how he has seen and debated the best in the world, in a bid to convey that he is "superior" while trying to hide the fact that he really doesnt have evidence to prove the contrary. Just a waste of time.

You figured all this out in less than 300 posts?

It took me 2000.

Enviously yours, Doc
 
Using hate to challenge modernism

The recent violence over an anti-Islam film is part of a wider clash with the idea of the modern republic
Last month, two men stood on a Mumbai sidewalk, holding up posters to a furious mob that was demanding a ban on a movie said to have blasphemed against the Prophet. The counter-protesters’ hand-written placards had some simple advice: “Don’t watch it”. For their pains, the men were threatened and then roughed up.

Familiar with the story? Probably not. The counter-protesters go by the name of Dileep D’Souza and Naresh Fernandes. The protesters were pious Bandra boys — not the Kalashnikov-waving Muslims who have ably helped television stations rake it in these past weeks. The film in question was Kamaal Dhamaal Malamaal, a Bollywood flop that appalled the faithful because, according to the Vatican news agency Agenzia Fides, “a priest is portrayed as a lottery maniac”. The church withdrew its objections after cuts were made; to no one’s surprise, the Mumbai Police hasn’t been falling over itself to prosecute the assailants.

Breakdown

India’s outrage industry has had a busy few weeks. The Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee has threatened to seek a ban on Harry Potter author J.K. Rowling’s new book, which includes “a hairy man-woman” Sikh character. Hindu priest Rajan Zed, tireless in his pursuit of publicity, has held out dark warnings about Kevin Lima’s forthcoming Mumbai Musical, which tells the Ramayana from the point of view of monkeys.

Large swathes of tropical forest have been expended, in recent weeks, to printing commentary seeking to explain “Muslim rage” — the wave of anger that is purported to have gripped believers from North Africa to Indonesia, because of the release of the crude anti-Islam film, The Innocence of Muslims.

From an Indian optic, as this autumn’s epidemic outbreak of clerical madness demonstrates, it is far from clear that the problem is centred around either Muslims or rage. There is a far larger crisis unfolding in what used to be called the Third World, a breakdown of the modernist project that has empowered a variety of politics based around narrow ethnic and religious identities.

Perhaps the most interesting feature of “Muslim rage” is the absence of evidence that it exists; that is, as a force that shapes the political actions of believers, as opposed to a propagandistic tool useful to Islamic neoconservatives, anti-Islam bigots and confused liberals alike. The Innocence mobilisation was propelled, in each case, by reactionary politics, not spontaneous outrage. In Egypt, competition between establishmentarian and revolutionary Islamists, combined with anti-police hooliganism, fanned the riots; in Libya, warlords sought religious legitimacy; in Pakistan, the vanguard was made up of jihadists backed by the military establishment to undermine the civilian order. The bulk of the 23 people reported killed in Pakistan died at the hands of riot police; their targets in Karachi included liquor stores.

Yet, the Innocence violence is hardly exceptional. Ethnic and religious conflicts routinely claim a far larger toll of lives on a regular basis: Sri Lanka’s Buddhist chauvinists, Indian Hindutva groups, and African ethnic groups all have records rivalling the Islamists. Many of these movements have been as successful as the Islamists in transcending geography. The malaise cannot therefore be seen as something intrinsic to what is carelessly called “the Muslim world”; there are larger forces at work here.

In 2002, the British Marxist, Kenan Malik, shocked many with this proposition: “all cultures are not equal”. The real crisis flagged by 9/11, he argued, was not the rise of religious fundamentalism; it was instead growing liberal pessimism about the prospect of a better world. Mr. Malik argued that “scientific method, democratic politics, the concept of universal values — these are palpably better concepts than those that existed previously, or those that exist now in other political and cultural traditions”. These ideas, he went on, were “western”— but emerged there not “because Europeans are a superior people, but because out of the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and the scientific revolution flowed superior ideas.”

Post-colonial radicals of an earlier generation would, more likely than not, have been entirely comfortable with this argument. The radical C.L.R. James, Mr. Malik noted, condemned imperialism, but applauded “the learning and profound discoveries of [the] western civilisation.”

Frantz Fanon, despite his trenchant criticism of colonialism, conceded that “the elements of a solution to the great problems of humanity have, at different times, existed in European thought”.

Precisely these emancipatory ideas guided the great tide of change that swept nationalists to power across the world in the middle of the last century. In a magnificent speech now available online, Egypt’s former President Gamal Abdel Nasser recalled that the Muslim Brotherhood had offered peace in 1953 — if only the government made women wear the tarha, or headscarf. Nasser’s audience laughed uproariously at what then seemed surreal; “let him wear one”, a man shouted.

Begum Akbar Jehan Abdullah, the wife of the Kashmiri politician, Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, urged women to leave purdah; her successors, like the People’s Democratic Party leader Mehbooba Mufti, cannot but seem to endorse it. Jawaharlal Nehru’s atheism; Dr. B.R. Ambedkar’s savage attacks on caste: these are almost inconceivable for a modern Indian politician.

No great insight is needed into why this retreat came apart — and the religious right became resurgent. Post-colonial societies have been through an extraordinary ripping-apart of their cultural fabric over the past century and more. “English steam and English free trade,” as Karl Marx noted in his now unfashionable but remarkable 1853 essay on colonial India, had produced a social revolution; post-colonial industrialisation and neoliberalism have accentuated it. In the context of countries like Egypt, Libya and Pakistan, authoritarianism, and its opportunistic alliances with religion, further de-legitimised the secular-nationalist project.

Large doses of metropolitan liberalism, as well as establishmentarian politicians, have confused the inequities of capitalism with the modernist project itself — thus legitimising, as scholars like Meera Nanda have pointed out, the worst kinds of political reaction which emerged out of the post-colonial crisis. Instead of building a political vocabulary based on citizenship, the republic degenerated into a series of political claims based on identity. Not giving offence to these identities was valorised as a means of engaging with the tide of hate washing across India. The defenders of M.F. Husain, for example, were compelled to argue that his paintings were deeply respectful of the Hindu tradition — not that he was entitled to offend who he chose.

Veto over intellectual life

Ever since the 1970s, Indian ethnic and religious reactionaries have thus come to enjoy a veto over India’s intellectual life. The Hindu’s Hasan Suroor has ably documented the huge volume of literature and knowledge, from Aubrey Menen’s Ramayana to James Laine’s Shivaji or the anonymously-authored al-Furqan al-Haqq. It is hard to imagine that a mainstream press would today publish a popular version of D.N. Jha’s work on beef-eating in Vedic India, or Maxime Rodinson’s speculations on the roots of prophetic revelation in epileptic disorders. Each of these acts of censorship represents an act of assault on critical inquiry.

The triumph of this vicious anti-politics has been to comprehensively shape our political imagination and language. There are closer affinities between the upmarket metropolitan liberals who coo over handicrafts and the aesthetic world of the communal terrorist than we care to acknowledge.

Lucius Seneca, the great stoic philosopher and statesman, spoke of the perils of the poisonous culture we find ourselves mired in. He pointed, wryly, to a populace which, “defending its own iniquity, pits itself against reason”. The relentless march of unreason, he went on, meant “a mistake that has been passed on from hand to hand finally involves us and works our destruction. It is the example of other people that is our undoing”.

India desperately needs a new modernist project — not the backward-looking search for authenticity which has so impoverished our public life. This ought to be the real lesson of the Innocence riots, though such reflection is improbable; there have been no shortage of opportunities to awake, and none of those was heeded.
 
The west needs to understand that we love our Prophet (P.B.U.H) MORE THEN OUR FAMILY!!

This is where the whole 'problem' lies in a nutshell. You have raised the reverence you have for your prophet as a fundamental truth to a point that you haven chosen to identify yourself with it. You have every right to do so, but you cannot accept that Non-Muslims see Muhammad in the same regard. You cannot demand from Non-Muslims, 75% of the world, that they view Muhammad like Muslims do, or even hold them hostage with death threats and violence, so that they do. Non-Muslims are not bound by Muslim rules, this is something many Muslims do not understand. They want to restrict the thoughts of non-Muslims, so that we can approach your religious figures in a way that suits Muslims, but that isn't freedom at all. That's a one way ticket to Islamist dictatorship.
The 'West' will not accept that its principles be discarded because Muslims haven chosen to absolute their religion, and expect that non-Muslims follow the same standards like Muslim do.

You talk about Holocaust and Jews of our time and that they may have a relative that suffered from the hands of Nazis so their feelings must not be hurt but on the other hand, totally ignore the fact that we care more about our Prophet then our family members and our feelings too get hurt when you mock our beliefs. A simple case of double standards it is.

If you're mistakenly assuming that the Holocaust denial laws were enacted to spare hurtful feelings among the Jews, you might have had a point. But those laws are all but about religious sentiments. Initially they were put in place in order to prevent a political ideology from resurfacing again, an ideology whose supporters were responsible for the deaths of more than 11 million people, including millions of Jews, a genocide that was perpetrated in a methodical way. Gradually these laws now have become a beacon to warn future generations not to repeat history.
 
I dint say you mocked, Your words were respectful. I was explaining you why are we hurt when our prophet insulted, That said i also say that violent protest only served enemey ugenda.
How muslims should have protested? peaceful, using this incident as a chance to educate others about prophet muhammed. In fact, this is what is happening. I see there are many are posting about prophet muhammed in facebook which might really impress some one!

But i am stressing, insulting others religious symbols even after knowing that they are hurt is really cruel.


FIne, I am Indian first, then muslim. US has not done anything to muslims all over the world?
Trust me, if movie was made in any other country protest wouldnt be so violent.

By the way, wanted to create a thread about "Indian First". Any ways i will ask some questions here itself.
1. Why does many times Hindus protest whever some temple has to destroyed for road or any other infrastructure project? Arent they think here Indian first?
2. Why many Indians met here worry about pak hindus?
3. Why are the tamils worry about SL tamil and protest in India even when we know that they had killed our PM?
4. Why are there are some org working for Hindu India? and they cant accept current secular India?

I am sure there are plenty of occasions Indian Hindus think Hindu first.

I know you will come to your root..when hard questions are asked....

1. Why does many times Hindus protest whever some temple has to destroyed for road or any other infrastructure project? Arent they think here Indian first?...

Ans : Reason is simple...they are minorities people in my nation...If Hinduism its so relevant in India.. and its political domain....then RSS would have ruling the nation rather than Congress ruling 95% of the time after our independence....

Now coming to your question...If for a nation development i have to destroy a temple i can do that ....but i would a question to you...can you do that ...can you destroy muslim religious place for any work that helps in nation development????

2. Why many Indians met here worry about pak hindus?

Its pure BS.....If any one in india is worried about Pakistan Hindus then its pure BS....Rather than caring Pakistan hindus i will care for those Indian Muslims who think of them as Indian first rather than Pakistani Hindus....
3. Why are the tamils worry about SL tamil and protest in India even when we know that they had killed our PM?
You are argument is illogical....Tamil issue is not a religion related issue rather people from specific state issue...
4. Why are there are some org working for Hindu India? and they cant accept current secular India?
They have every right to work as Hindu india like some radical Islamic organization is working under the payroll of C@@ss to make Islamic India....what is wrong with it???? I am not a big supporter of Hindu fanatics...but becoz of my frustration towards C@@ss of appeasing Minority for votes...Indian politics does not give me much choice....
 

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