Hasina signed her resignation yesterday

[mb444]

Please name a single democratic country that has successfully developed since WW2?

Democracy does not work in 3rd world countries.

You cannot get any long term planning when parties change every 5 years.

Nuclear power stations take 10 years to build from initial proposal and Russians more than likely would not have become interested in working with BD if the old party system was in place as they would have no assurance what party would be in power after a few years.

BD economy would have been significantly weaker if AL had not been in power since 2009.
It would have made some progress for sure but definitely would not have now been the fastest growing large developing economy in the world.

I am a democratic libertarian and whilst flexible in many things I do fundamentally believe that democracy is the way forward. Its not perfect and it does the least damage.

To answer your primary question which post colonial nation developed via pure democracy since WW2. I can not think of one.

However as much as I value economic progress I do not value it over people. Autocracy always leads to violence and massive rich/poor divide.

I want BD to progress steadily and smoothly taking all of its people upwards. BD paradox exists because we have broken many trends.

Democracy is not a new concept in BD, we have had a functioning parliament in one guise or another for over a century which these other nations did not have.

It is too simplistic a conclusion and open ended rule by one party is a recipe for chaos unless perpetual undermining of the peoples aspiration is accepted as a norm.

 

[Tom-tom]

I have seen nothing in the news of her resignation? Is this a just a rumour or myth?

 

[BananaRepublicUK]

I am a democratic libertarian and whilst flexible in many things I do fundamentally believe that democracy is the way forward. Its not perfect and it does the least damage.

To answer your primary question which post colonial nation developed via pure democracy since WW2. I can not think of one.

However as much as I value economic progress I do not value it over people. Autocracy always leads to violence and massive rich/poor divide.

I want BD to progress steadily and smoothly taking all of its people upwards. BD paradox exists because we have broken many trends.

Democracy is not a new concept in BD, we have had a functioning parliament in one guise or another for over a century which these other nations did not have.

It is too simplistic a conclusion and open ended rule by one party is a recipe for chaos unless perpetual undermining of the peoples aspiration is accepted as a norm.

Except for the few loons here - we all want the best for BD.

As long as our arguments are based on facts and not opinions - we will have civilised discourse.

I don’t always agree with @UKBengali but he always argues with facts.

@Bilal9 is another guy I respect. He hates BAL with a passion but doesn’t deny the facts.

If in this small forum we cannot argue with facts - democracy has no chance when the average voter is ignorant and average politician is a certified criminal thug.

Despite the blatant criminality of BAL and sycophantic relationship with Hinduvta - I cannot see light without Hasina.

She is the only person who can get big things done in BD.

 

[mb444]

No country has developed through democracy. EVER!

Name one?

Democracy comes after development not before.

As i said of nation that has been subjected to colonialism I can not think of one.

But if it is a general question then lets see UK for one, establishment of parliament occurred long before the industrial revolution. Same can be said of France and offcourse USA which was born as a democracy at the outset of its life.

If you look at countries like Spain, Francos autocracy held it back and she only started developing when democracy returned.

Advocating autocracy is just creepy. It has absolutely no positive in it at all.

What you perhaps see is a problem is that democracy can be messy and policies can change. Yes it happens, it is not a big deal. If a government starts of a project contractual conditions ensure it proceeds under new government.

None of these are anything that are negatives that any social scientist would attach to democracy.

Your issues are procedural and a one party state is not the answer.

The states that develop has good processes, good admistration and rule of law. Once you incubate those, development follows. Democracy can do that.

Let me ask you guys a question, can you name an autocracy that has developed any well formed country....

- China... millions in detention centres, organs of prisoners harvested

- S Korea - extreme rich poor divide

- Hong Kong - segregated society

 

[mb444]

Ershad had an iron grip - achieved bugger all!

Just beautified Rangpur and increased the comfort of the officer class.

Sylhetis were hounded at Dhaka airport.

Hasina stopped the extortion of Sylhetis at Dhaka airport.

I am unclear of your point.

RMG started during ershads time.

I do not know anything about extortion of Sylhetis at the airport. I have never personally seen anyone being harassed. the lines are long and it takes ages for the luaguage to turn up if that is what you mean. If not can not comment.

I do not understand why BD people tolerate Hasina and BAL.

BD badly needs a revolution like Srilanka to kickout Hasina and BAL out of BD permanently.

China and Pakistan should provide support to BD military to get rid of Hasina.

Because the greatest victim of political upheavals are the people. As long as economy is growing some curtailment of personal freedom is acceptable to most BD.

 

[BananaRepublicUK]

I have seen nothing in the news of her resignation? Is this a just a rumour or myth?

As i said of nation that has been subjected to colonialism I can not think of one.

But if it is a general question then lets see UK for one, establishment of parliament occurred long before the industrial revolution. Same can be said of France and offcourse USA which was born as a democracy at the outset of its life.

If you look at countries like Spain, Francos autocracy held it back and she only started developing when democracy returned.

Advocating autocracy is just creepy. It has absolutely no positive in it at all.

What you perhaps see is a problem is that democracy can be messy and policies can change. Yes it happens, it is not a big deal. If a government starts of a project contractual conditions ensure it proceeds under new government.

None of these are anything that are negatives that any social scientist would attach to democracy.

Your issues are procedural and a one party state is not the answer.

The states that develop has good processes, good admistration and rule of law. Once you incubate those, development follows. Democracy can do that.

Let me ask you guys a question, can you name an autocracy that has developed any well formed country....

- China... millions in detention centres, organs of prisoners harvested

- S Korea - extreme rich poor divide

- Hong Kong - segregated society

U.K. was an absolute monarchy until 1921.

Spain was an super rich empire under absolute monarchy.

Your examples are poor.

Here are countries that became super powers under monarchy/autocracy:

1. U.K. under queen Victoria
2. France under Napoleon
3. USA under slavery
4. Holland under monarchy
5. Japan under emperor

Etc etc

 

[mb444]

Except for the few loons here - we all want the best for BD.

As long as our arguments are based on facts and not opinions - we will have civilised discourse.

I don’t always agree with @UKBengali but he always argues with facts.

@Bilal9 is another guy I respect. He hates BAL with a passion but doesn’t deny the facts.

If in this small forum we cannot argue with facts - democracy has no chance when the average voter is ignorant and average politician is a certified criminal thug.

Despite the blatant criminality of BAL and sycophantic relationship with Hinduvta - I cannot see light without Hasina.

She is the only person who can get big things done in BD.

Dude, everyone has a view and a position. It is not necessary to agree on all things.

Its cool that in some things @UKBengali and I disagree. We simply move on as it should be with everyone.

 

[BananaRepublicUK]

As long as the views are grounded in facts - I will tolerate differing opinion.

If you go round spouting nonsense like question the export numbers or the dollar reserve - you become a certified loon.

I will tolerate questions about the GDP numbers.

But then you have to explain the fast growing export numbers and healthy dollar reserve.

 

[mb444]

U.K. was an absolute monarchy until 1921.

Spain was an super rich empire under absolute monarchy.

Your examples are poor.

Here are countries that became super powers under monarchy/autocracy:

1. U.K. under queen Victoria
2. France under Napoleon
3. USA under slavery
4. Holland under monarchy
5. Japan under emperor

Etc etc

No, remember back to your primary school. 1649 was when parliament took over from absolute monarchy when charles the first was beheaded. Thats long before the industrial revolution. This is why black rod shuts the parliament door to the queen (soon the new king) ceremonially at each opening of the parliament.

French revolution was based on liberty, egality, fraternity the foundation of a democracy. Napoleon only ruled for 15 years - an aberation. Except for this france has been a democracy.

Dude how is USA not a democracy. Not a perfect democracy Ofcourse what with slavery but it is still a democracy.

Wont comment on the dutch or the japs cause lack knowledge of their history.

But the 3 above became great empire even though they were democracies when really empire should be incompatible with democracy. They were able to do it because they never extended democracy to the colonies. Thus we circle around to my original point, BD is different, we had a parliament under the british raj. Democracy is entrenched in BD unlike everywhere else.

As long as the views are grounded in facts - I will tolerate differing opinion.

If you go round spouting nonsense like question the export numbers or the dollar reserve - you become a certified loon.

I will tolerate questions about the GDP numbers.

But then you have to explain the fast growing export numbers and healthy dollar reserve.

Well thank you for your tolerance...LOL

Look you should not fear questions, problem only occurs when you dont agree to disagree respectfully. There are no absolutes in life or in statistics. Just go with the flow.

 

[Tom-tom]

U.K. was an absolute monarchy until 1921.

Spain was an super rich empire under absolute monarchy.

Your examples are poor.

Here are countries that became super powers under monarchy/autocracy:

1. U.K. under queen Victoria
2. France under Napoleon
3. USA under slavery
4. Holland under monarchy
5. Japan under emperor

Etc etc

Bro you quoted me, but haven't answered my question?

 

[UKBengali]

- S Korea - extreme rich poor divide

- Hong Kong - segregated society

S Korea is a democratic country and no more wealth divide than that of the UK.

Hong Kong we cannot really use as China took it over in 1997.

Taiwan is similar to S. Korea.

Facts are that democracy simply does not work for 3rd world countries to develop as has been seen since WW2.

Your example of one government following another one after it takes over in order to conclude long time-scale infrastructure projects like nuclear does not work in practice as 3rd world countries do not have a mature political system. It even to some extent happens in Western democracies as they are just looking to get re-elected and so sometimes do not think more than 5 years into the future.

We need to admit that a lot of what is happening and will happen in BD was due to AL being in power since 2009 as they have been able to plan for the long term and other countries like Russia have gottten involved in expensive and long time-scale infrastructure projects due to political certainty.

I for one am not prepared to take a risk of the stability and certain economic growth in return for a maybe of better alternative that has a very low chance of happening.

Let Hasina rule till 2029 and then bow out after making BD a "middle-income" and decently educated state. It will then be on "auto-drive" and whoever takes over cannot mess things up.

 

[BananaRepublicUK]

Bro you quoted me, but haven't answered my question?

What was your question?

No, remember back to your primary school. 1649 was when parliament took over from absolute monarchy when charles the first was beheaded. Thats long before the industrial revolution. This is why black rod shuts the parliament door to the queen (soon the new king) ceremonially at each opening of the parliament.

French revolution was based on liberty, egality, fraternity the foundation of a democracy. Napoleon only ruled for 15 years - an aberation. Except for this france has been a democracy.

Dude how is USA not a democracy. Not a perfect democracy Ofcourse what with slavery but it is still a democracy.

Wont comment on the dutch or the japs cause lack knowledge of their history.

But the 3 above became great empire even though they were democracies when really empire should be incompatible with democracy. They were able to do it because they never extended democracy to the colonies. Thus we circle around to my original point, BD is different, we had a parliament under the british raj. Democracy is entrenched in BD unlike everywhere else.


Well thank you for your tolerance...LOL

Look you should not fear questions, problem only occurs when you dont agree to disagree respectfully. There are no absolutes in life or in statistics. Just go with the flow.

How can a slave owing society be considered democratic? Are you insane!!!???

And Britain was a functioning monarchy during the reign of queen victoria. Parliament was advisory only. She had veto power.

If you think Victorian Britain was democratic, let’s make Hasina queen with veto power

 

[leonblack08]

U.K. was an absolute monarchy until 1921.

Spain was an super rich empire under absolute monarchy.

Your examples are poor.

Here are countries that became super powers under monarchy/autocracy:

1. U.K. under queen Victoria
2. France under Napoleon
3. USA under slavery
4. Holland under monarchy
5. Japan under emperor

Etc etc

If dictatorial regimes and/or monarchy were always success story as you are trying to argue, Africa as a continent would now be the richest in the world given the amount of natural resources is available in that continent. We would see Europeans flocking to Africa to work, not the other way around.

You are citing UK, France, US, Holland and Japan as examples for success of autocracy. You need to take the historical contexts behind those examples. What you are not taking into account is that all these nations had imperialistic agenda. They needed to grow their empire through force. And force is derived through economic power. Even though US had democracy albeit imperfect, it inherited the imperialistic mentality from Europe. Japan was never colonized by the west because it had always been a colonizer itself,

If you are to compare Bangladeshi autocracy story with other countries, you need to pick post-WW2 economies.

Let's look at some of the stories from Asia and also their background -

**I will not take city states/territories like Singapore and Hong Kong into account when comparing with a country with large population like Bangladesh.
**I am taking GDP per capita as a measure to simplify the comparison.

1. South Korea - Economically very successful at per capita GDP of 34,994. However, let's not forget they have an active enemy to the north. So even though the South Korean dictators were corrupt, they had to ensure the country is economically sound to fight the North Koreans. The Samsungs and all other Korean rich business families benefitted from the corrupt system. The society suffers from income inequality.
US did assist ROK with billions for years after the Korea war which built the foundation for what Korea is now. Does Bangladesh have such rich and powerful sponsor?

2. Indonesia - Now they are growing and moderately successful at per capita GDP of 4,691. Indonesia became independent on 1945, way before Bangladesh. Indonesia has natural resources and tourism, and yet their GDP per capita is little above Bangladesh. If dictatorship was so great, why isn't Indonesia in the mid-10K per capita GDP by now?

3. Vietnam - Growing and moderately successful at per capita GDP of 4,122. One party style government similar to China.

4. Myanmar - Still developing, with GDP per capita at 1,285. Myanmar received independence in 1948. It had been under military junta for the most part since 1960s. We clearly seeing their development aren't we?

The notion that dictatorship is the best way to economically succeed is absolutely wrong. A corrupt dictatorship is no better than a corrupt democracy.

I will agree that a benevolent and just dictatorship will be more effective than any democracy. But, the Sheikh Hasina government does not fall in that category. The corruption is rampant. There is literally robbery going on with government funds. This cannot sustain in the long run.

I have been to Bangladesh this year after many years, and apart from some fancy roads and bridges, not much have changed. It still took me 3 hours to go from one end of Dhaka to the other. The power outage wasn't there when I visited, but now I hear it's back again because of Bangladesh's reliance on fuel powered plants.

14 years is a long time to fix these basic necessities. The fact that these haven't been fixed yet, means its time for Hasina to step down. But unfortunately, there won't be any peaceful power transition. I was in Dhaka when the last time people were getting burnt or being beaten to death with wooden boat paddles, until the army stepped in and arrested both the bibis. It will be the same again this time if not worse.

 

[BananaRepublicUK]

If dictatorial regimes and/or monarchy were always success story as you are trying to argue, Africa as a continent would now be the richest in the world given the amount of natural resources is available in that continent. We would see Europeans flocking to Africa to work, not the other way around.

You are citing UK, France, US, Holland and Japan as examples for success of autocracy. You need to take the historical contexts behind those examples. What you are not taking into account is that all these nations had imperialistic agenda. They needed to grow their empire through force. Even though US had democracy albeit imperfect, it inherited the imperialistic mentality from Europe. Japan was never colonized by the west because it had always been a colonizer itself,

If you are to compare Bangladeshi autocracy story with other countries, you need to pick post-WW2 economies.

Let's look at some of the stories from Asia and also their background -

**I will not take city states/territories like Singapore and Hong Kong into account when comparing with a country with large population like Bangladesh.
**I am taking GDP per capita as a measure to simplify the comparison.

1. South Korea - Economically very successful at per capita GDP of 34,994. However, let's not forget they have an active enemy to the north. So even though the South Korean dictators were corrupt, they had to ensure the country is economically sound to fight the North Koreans. The Samsungs and all other Korean rich business families benefitted from the corrupt system. The society suffers from income inequality.
US did assist ROK with billions for years after the Korea war which built the foundation for what Korea is now. Does Bangladesh have such rich and powerful sponsor?

2. Indonesia - Now they are growing and moderately successful at per capita GDP of 4,691. Indonesia became independent on 1945, way before Bangladesh. Indonesia has natural resources and tourism, and yet their GDP per capita is little above Bangladesh. If dictatorship was so great, why isn't Indonesia in the mid-10K per capita GDP by now?

3. Vietnam - Growing and moderately successful at per capita GDP of 4,122. One party style government similar to China.

4. Myanmar - Still developing, with GDP per capita at 1,285. Myanmar received independence in 1948. It had been under military junta for the most part since 1960s. We clearly seeing their development aren't we?

The notion that dictatorship is the best way to economically succeed is absolutely wrong. A corrupt dictatorship is no better than a corrupt democracy.

I will agree that a benevolent and just dictatorship will be more effective than any democracy. But, the Sheikh Hasina government does not fall in that category. The corruption is rampant. There is literally robbery going on with government funds. This cannot sustain in the long run.

I have been to Bangladesh this year after many years, and apart from some fancy roads and bridges, not much have changed. It still took me 3 hours to go from one end of Dhaka to the other. The power outage wasn't there when I visited, but now I hear it's back again because of Bangladesh's reliance on fuel powered plants.

14 years is a long time to fix these basic necessities. The fact that these haven't been fixed yet, means its time for Hasina to step down. But unfortunately, there won't be any peaceful power transition. I was in Dhaka when the last time people were getting burnt or being beaten to death with wooden boat paddles, until the army stepped in and arrested both the bibis. It will be the same again this time if not worse.

Not all monarchies and autocracies become rich.

But no democracy EVER become rich.

Roman republic was at its most prosperous during the rule of dictator Augustus.

France abandoned democracy and appointed Napoleon a dictator.

 

[leonblack08]

S Korea is a democratic country and no more wealth divide than that of the UK.

Hong Kong we cannot really use as China took it over in 1997.

Taiwan is similar to S. Korea.

Facts are that democracy simply does not work for 3rd world countries to develop as has been seen since WW2.

Your example of one government following another one after it takes over in order to conclude long time-scale infrastructure projects like nuclear does not work in practice as 3rd world countries do not have a mature political system. It even to some extent happens in Western democracies as they are just looking to get re-elected and so sometimes do not think more than 5 years into the future.

We need to admit that a lot of what is happening and will happen in BD was due to AL being in power since 2009 as they have been able to plan for the long term and other countries like Russia have gottten involved in expensive and long time-scale infrastructure projects due to political certainty.

I for one am not prepared to take a risk of the stability and certain economic growth in return for a maybe of better alternative that has a very low chance of happening.

Let Hasina rule till 2029 and then bow out after making BD a "middle-income" and decently educated state. It will then be on "auto-drive" and whoever takes over cannot mess things up.

For the sake of understanding where you are coming from, When was the last time you were in Bangladesh?

You mentioned in another post that plenty of jobs available for the growing number of graduates, well its not. The pay is extremely poor barring the few with MNCs. I see bright folks running out of the country the very first chance they get. These are not anecdotal evidence. Just search up immigration data for Canada, US, Europe in recent years and see if you can find a growing trend of outbound Bangladeshis or not.

When it comes to government jobs, positions are being sold to the highest bidder. Who in turn will make up for the "investment" by making a fortune through bribes. How are we attracting and retaining talented folks to the bureaucracy? After all these people are in position to drive policies. We should be having the top talents working in the ministries. Instead, the very first qualification is determined is whether they are pro-BAL or not.

How do you want to account for the corruption that is taking place by pro-BAL individuals and the wealth being laundered out of BD? One example is that of the infamous Pillow Scam in Rooppur plant. This moron got caught hence we know the story. What level of independent oversight do we have on the other development projects we have in the country?

Do you think "real" development through this level of corruption through the development projects is sustainable?

I don't expect you to answer these rhetorical question, but at least don't be under the illusion that Bangladesh is going to turn into a real "middle-income" country if BAL stays in power 10 more years.