Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[ziaulislam]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-to-make-additional-scorpene-subs-parrikar/207803.html
New Delhi, March 11
India is trying to increase the number of Scoprene Submarines that the Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) is making. The MDL is tasked to produce six submarines in collaboration with French company DCNS.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, while answering a question on Defence shipyards in the Lok Sabha today, confirmed the stand of the government. When South Mumbai MP Arvind Sawant asked about the future orders of the MDL, Parrikar said: “The initial yard (MDL) where the submarine is being laid....is already vacant. We are trying to increase the number of submarines that they are making.”
Though Parrikar has in the past mentioned that more number of Scorpene submarines could be built, his response in the Lok Sabha was a clear indication that more such vessels could be added.
The first of six Scorpene diesel-electric attack submarines (SSKs), the INS Kalvari, was set afloat for sea trials in December 2015. The vessel is scheduled to be commissioned in September 2016.
The 66-metre-long INS Kalvari is part of a $3.6 billion contract signed with DCNS in October 2005. While the first four subs are conventional submarines, the last two are to be equipped with the Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system, which will enable the vessel to stay underwater for longer.
In the past 15 years, India’s submarine arm is the slowest growing in the otherwise fast-growing war machinery. The submarine plan announced in 1999 had spoken of having 24 modern submarines by 2030. Half way through, the INS Kalvari will be the first submarine.
India currently has only 14 submarines: nine Kilo class (EKMs), four German-designed HDWs (SSKs) and one Akula class nuclear-powered submarine (SSN) on lease from Russia (since 2012).
The US Department of Defence, in its annual report to the US Congress, spells out the rise of China’s submarine fleet. ‘Military and Security Developments involving the People’s Republic of China 2015’ says the Peoples Liberation Army Navy has 68 submarines.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

Its manual dude..

I can give a 50000 page manual of a computer.But it'll not tell you how a chip is designed or how to hack into system.

 

[vrindavan]

make sure you ask for the english instruction manual not the chinese one. But again english manuals from china will look like this

 

[war&peace]

it is 10 12 years for development manufacturing and delivery of 8 subs. people take twice that much time just to decide what they are going to buy. i do not understand why we are saying it is too long. plus i do have a strong feeling and reasons to beleive that these wont be off the shelf products and we will get our modified boats. as we usually do with Chinese

I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.

 

[bustead]

agosta same size to s-20(not sure what subs pakistan bought)
and they do have AIP

Oh right Agosta came with AIP. Really sorry about that. Should have done my homework

 

[Arsalan]

I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.

Well i said, the serious talks or news regarding this surfaced in 2015 so that is 1-2 years. Also i am not that certain that we will be getting the ships WITHOUT ANY modification. The chances are there will be a few tweaks made. Also since we are to build 4 at home we are working on that expansion project as well. Plus there are the "little" issues of finances etc

 

[Bratva]

Well i said, the serious talks or news regarding this surfaced in 2015 so that is 1-2 years. Also i am not that certain that we will be getting the ships WITHOUT ANY modification. The chances are there will be a few tweaks made. Also since we are to build 4 at home we are working on that expansion project as well. Plus there are the "little" issues of finances etc

NEW CHINESE 039C SUBMARINE DOESN’T NEED TO COME UP FOR AIR… IN SEVERAL WEEKS
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer April 15, 2014

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/...ubmarine-doesn’t-need-come-air…-several-weeks

Serious talks started in 2015 because china perfected theri AIP and other hightech sensors and demonstrated their capability in 2014. People doesnt know a single thing about chinese sub tech history hence worried about the delay in signing to delay in the manufacturing

 

[MastanKhan]

I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.

Hi,

Well the original deal started with the french subs and then the german subs and ended with the chinese subs---so it has been quite awhile when the deal started.

 

[Arsalan]

NEW CHINESE 039C SUBMARINE DOESN’T NEED TO COME UP FOR AIR… IN SEVERAL WEEKS
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer April 15, 2014

http://www.popsci.com/blog-network/eastern-arsenal/new-chinese-039c-submarine-doesn’t-need-come-air…-several-weeks

Serious talks started in 2015 because china perfected theri AIP and other hightech sensors and demonstrated their capability in 2014. People doesnt know a single thing about chinese sub tech history hence worried about the delay in signing to delay in the manufacturing

True!
That is the reason for the comments "not so late" or " no worries"
But people need something to talk about right so here we are!

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Why ten years, why can't they build simultaneously.

In a knowhow transfer program, a hole new generation of people will be trained in China to build this submarine, then then will come back here while Shipyard is being upgraded, and then build the Subs here, slowly deleting the processes to local ones. This is how Transfer of Technology programs work.

Well we will get 6-9 Scorpenes, 6 P-75i, 8 N-subs by 2028.

And there are enough torpedoes with their names written on the other side.

Oh right Agosta came with AIP. Really sorry about that. Should have done my homework

Acosta did not come with AIP. The MESMA AIP was later retrofitted in the Agosta 90B in Dockyard.

I think it has been quite a few years already when the deal was signed so it taking long time. Since Pakistan is opting for an existing design, then it shouldn't take that much long.[/QUOTE

Its manual dude..

I can give a 50000 page manual of a computer.But it'll not tell you how a chip is designed or how to hack into system.

But it gives away too much on Scorpene, however, most of it already known to PN.

Yeah i was saying the same that this is not TOO much time!


Since 2015 in serious words.... That is one and a half year. Remember i say "serious words"

As for KSEW, lack of resources as well as work space. We are working on addressing that issue (of work space)

Most forget that a whole new shipyard is being built for this project, and other underwater ambitions of PN.

This effort secures the SLOCs with the Indian expansionism and US defense pact to use Indian naval bases.

What one should do/think of these news from 2011:?

It is now believed that the contract inked between CSIC and Pakistan early last April (see FORCE April 2011, pages 16-17) calls for the CSIC's Wuhan-based Wuchang Shipyard to supply six Qing-class SSKs, all of which will be equipped with a Stirling-cycle AIP system and will be able to carry up to three nuclear warhead-carrying CJ-10K LACMs each. The double-hulled Qing-class SSK, with a submerged displacement close to 3,600 tonnes, bears a close resemblance to the Russian Type 636M SSK, and features hull-retractable foreplanes and hydrodynamically streamlined sail. The first such SSK was launched in Wuhan on September 9 last year, and a total of three such SSKs are on order from China's PLA Navy as well. The AIP system for the Qing-class SSK was developed by the 711th Research Institute of CSIC. R&D work began in June 1996, with a 100-strong team of scientists and engineers led by Dr Jin Donghan being involved in developing the Stirling-cycle engine, while another team led Professor Ma Weiming of China's Naval Engineering University began developing the all-electric AIP system. The two projects entered the production engineering stage in 2007, with the Shanghai Qiyao Propulsion Technology Ltd, a wholly owned subsidiary of the 711th Institute, becoming the principal industrial entity charged with producing the AIP system. Incidentally, the Qing-class SSK's all-electric propulsion system is a derivative of a similar system that was developed about a decade ago for the PLA Navy's six Type 093 Shang-class SSGNs and three Type 094 Jin-class SSBNs.

The submarine-launched CJ-10K LACM has been developed by the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp's (CASIC) Hubei-based Ninth Academy (also known as the Sanjiang Aerospace Group, or 066 Base) on cooperation with the Third Academy's Beijing-based Xinghang Electromechanical Equipment Factory (159 Factory). Final assembly of the CJ-10K is undertaken by the Beijing-based Hangxing Machine Building Factory (239 Factory). The CJ-10K features an imaging infra-red optronic system for terminal homing, and it makes use of a ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system combined with a GPS receiver to receive navigational updates from China's 'Beidou' constellation of GPS navigation satellites.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pak-navy-interest-in-chinese-sub-frigates.116768/#ixzz4IUZ9DM00

So two were added in the 2015 contract, most probably the S-20 if not another 2 Qing class!

Maybe what you are referring to is essentially two different submarine contracts for Pakistan. One that is in public eye, and one that will never be talked about, and is slated to finish ahead of the talked about 08 Kilo class knock offs.

But i think the reason behind delay of the subs is Pakistan and china have learn many things from the leaked documents of Indian next generation Submarine Scorpene on the other hand Indian and Vice-Admiral A.K. Singh, a retired Indian submariner who served as head of the Eastern Naval Command, told the wire that, in his view, 'this has saved the Chinese and Pakistanis 20-30 years of espionage'.

So let me tell you guys some things. Most of the so called leaked data is horse shit, only to sabotage Australian deal. Most of the data that you see in this sales level material is wrong. For Example, Scorpene Operating Depth is 450 Meters, and Crush Depth is 600 Meters. Endurance is 90 days. submerged flank speed is 27 knots. You can see, nothing on this data is worth two cents for a Naval analyst, but great gossip for children on forums.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Maybe what you are referring to is essentially two different submarine contracts for Pakistan. One that is in public eye, and one that will never be talked about, and is slated to finish ahead of the talked about 08 Kilo class knock offs.

.

or maybe your not getting 8 subs which are one model it could be a mixture of type 41 variant and a lenghtened one for long range patrols and hold slcm's
the type 32 is a testbed for slbm's, look at the bulge at the bottom of the hull

 

[Arsalan]

Most forget that a whole new shipyard is being built for this project, and other underwater ambitions of PN.

This effort secures the SLOCs with the Indian expansionism and US defense pact to use Indian naval bases.

OTHER underwater ambitions

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

or maybe your not getting 8 subs which are one model it could be a mixture of type 41 variant and a lenghtened one for long range patrols and hold slcm's
the type 32 is a testbed for slbm's, look at the bulge at the bottom of the hull

Coming soon to a underwater ravine near you.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Coming soon to a underwater ravine near you.

they said a contract was signed for 6 of the bulge subs in 2011 but i cant see them being able to full time use if when a sub want to to silent it sits on the sea bed. this cant do that.i would imagine they would make it bigger so the bulge is removed or make it smaller by removing the bulge. and that would mean theres an slbm in your arsenal

was i right about the 8 sub deal for being for 2 models ?
and is the bulge sub deal a separate deal or apart of the 8 sub deal?
regards

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

they said a contract was signed for 6 of the bulge subs in 2011 but i cant see them being able to full time use if when a sub want to to silent it sits on the sea bed. this cant do that.i would imagine they would make it bigger so the bulge is removed or make it smaller by removing the bulge. and that would mean theres an slbm in your arsenal

was i right about the 8 sub deal for being for 2 models ?
and is the bulge sub deal a separate deal or apart of the 8 sub deal?
regards

i can't say much to your bulge theory. However, Pakistan should (if not already) going for its second strike capability. What platform is used, only time will tell.

However, the conventional and strategic will always be two different programs, as seen in other strategic forces deployment by Pakistan.