Hangor Class Submarine Project | Updates & Discussions

[Penguin]

Yes.

Because the sound travels faster in warm water than in cold water.
Since the Sterling engine consists of cylinders, it produces sound & vibration.
Acoustic signature gets exposed.

Fuel cells work on chemical reaction = Quieter.

Thanks for making the connection to temperature and noise generation and propagation.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

that maybe your "assumption" the bow, sail, rear are all differant for the kilo. the only similarity is that the hull is round.

Its a NACA profile, not round.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Its a NACA profile, not round.

i should have said it better the outer hull is round with a flat/radious top. but the inner core is round.
the type 39 may have aspects of the kilo but thats pretty much it. they have indigenous designs such as the type 093/094 and the 095 is on the way

 

[Pathan khan]

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false .

 

[The Eagle]

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false .

Well, politicians are politicians and sometimes cannot be taken as that much serious about these of kind of key points w.r.t defence procurement so to sum it as per my understanding it is as follows.

Contract signed and construction started for the 1st batch of 4 subs built in China and the construction is from the scratch type as per our need so may take that long. Adding to that, in the meantime, Pakistani staff (concerned technical staff of Pakistan) would be trained simultaneously during built-in China phase.

On other side we will be preparing for necessary space/facility at KSEW to handle/manufacturer such type/sized subs which also may need some time. Also, we have Ormara Sub Rebuild Facility to be activated as estimated 2 to 3 years(speculated).

Building of Subs in Pakistan wouldn't take much time that we will be assembling the most of it by our already trained by China staff. So you will have a idea that building from the start and assembling are different tasks that we will be playing with ready stuff.

China has own projects as well and it is not necessary that having such number of docks be engaged by single project so different things are done on parallel lines.

The word simultaneously would be most probably about 4 in China and 4 in KSEW but cannot be started on the same time as you also noted that built-in China takes 7 years almost then assembled in Pakistan takes 4 years so if it was simultaneously then we would be having all of them 2023-24. KSEW is currently busy with upgradation work of 90B Sub with the help of STM Turkey ad well. One can also assume that may be, after 2020, new Sub assembling in Pakistan would be started simultaneously with China so fairly 8 years for both countries as 2023 for China and 2028 for Pakistan.

I took it as a typo or misinterpreted though I could be mistaken in my assessment as well so any correction(s) would be appreciated. Just my guess work.

 

[Hassan Guy]

I guess they would come in handy if we ever got into a war

 

[Pathan khan]

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false

Well, politicians are politicians and sometimes cannot be taken as that much serious about these of kind of key points w.r.t defence procurement so to sum it as per my understanding it is as follows.

Contract signed and construction started for the 1st batch of 4 subs built in China and the construction is from the scratch type as per our need so may take that long. Adding to that, in the meantime, Pakistani staff (concerned technical staff of Pakistan) would be trained simultaneously during built-in China phase.

On other side we will be preparing for necessary space/facility at KSEW to handle/manufacturer such type/sized subs which also may need some time. Also, we have Ormara Sub Rebuild Facility to be activated as estimated 2 to 3 years(speculated).

Building of Subs in Pakistan wouldn't take much time that we will be assembling the most of it by our already trained by China staff. So you will have a idea that building from the start and assembling are different tasks that we will be playing with ready stuff.

China has own projects as well and it is not necessary that having such number of docks be engaged by single project so different things are done on parallel lines.

The word simultaneously would be most probably about 4 in China and 4 in KSEW but cannot be started on the same time as you also noted that built-in China takes 7 years almost then assembled in Pakistan takes 4 years so if it was simultaneously then we would be having all of them 2023-24. KSEW is currently busy with upgradation work of 90B Sub with the help of STM Turkey ad well. One can also assume that may be, after 2020, new Sub assembling in Pakistan would be started simultaneously with China so fairly 8 years for both countries as 2023 for China and 2028 for Pakistan.

I took it as a typo or misinterpreted though I could be mistaken in my assessment as well so any correction(s) would be appreciated. Just my guess work.

Sorry but i disagree.
If u revisit the past 2nd agosta 90b submarine it also 3 years to assemble it in Pakistan and the third one took 4 years.
Now here what i know about KSEW it have 3 dry docks and two floating docks. One is possesed by Azmat FAC . 2nd by Survey vessel and third by 32 ton tug boat. With pipeline project of Milgem.
The two floating docks plus the new ship lift system which will be operational by 2018 will be used for ship repairs.
PN dockyard has one dock which is already possesed by Agosta,s .
Now there is also remours of indegenous nuclear sub which to me is nothing more than remours.
U reffered to submarine rebuild facility at ormara which is just for maintainance not for building.
So as per view point if Pakistan have to get 8 sumarines till 2028 they must start one sub constructing in 2017 because with a speedy construction atleast 2 years per sub is required.
If u get timeline of chinese or any other country submarine construction it takes average time of 36 months.

 

[The Eagle]

I m very much confused about this deal.the contradiction between two statments .one from rana tanvir that the submarine construction will start simultaneously in both countries.
2nd of Head of Submarine construction while briefing to parlimentary committe.that first 4 sub from china will be delivered till 2022 .23 and the next lot of four will be constructed at ksew and will be delivered till 2028.
Here the intresting is point that deal was signed in 2015.
Now china who is manufacturer will build first lot of four submarines in 8 years.
And Pakistan who will get technology under ToT will built 2nd lot of 4 submarines in 4 years..
How is this possible for Pakistan (having one shipyard) to built four subs in 4 years while china having much more dhipyards and expertise will take 8 years to built four subs..

To me the statement of Parlimentaty body is false

Sorry but i disagree.
If u revisit the past 2nd agosta 90b submarine it also 3 years to assemble it in Pakistan and the third one took 4 years.
Now here what i know about KSEW it have 3 dry docks and two floating docks. One is possesed by Azmat FAC . 2nd by Survey vessel and third by 32 ton tug boat. With pipeline project of Milgem.
The two floating docks plus the new ship lift system which will be operational by 2018 will be used for ship repairs.
PN dockyard has one dock which is already possesed by Agosta,s .
Now there is also remours of indegenous nuclear sub which to me is nothing more than remours.
U reffered to submarine rebuild facility at ormara which is just for maintainance not for building.
So as per view point if Pakistan have to get 8 sumarines till 2028 they must start one sub constructing in 2017 because with a speedy construction atleast 2 years per sub is required.
If u get timeline of chinese or any other country submarine construction it takes average time of 36 months.

Just gave my assessment.

What if we are upgrading the KSEW to handle new Sub project by now. FAC Azmat, survey ship and tug docks have nothing to do with this so also 90b is going through upgradation in specific dock which would be busy till all 4 upgraded.

Ormara could be an option and who knows however situation is bit of complex in contexts of such statements though I did share what I sees.

N Sub is just a rumor though building one would be an option but for future indeed, nobody says No to have it.

Going by average of 3 years per Sub, it would be injustice to expect Pakistan assembled Subs within 10 years from the day it starts to assemble so indeed needs More clarification on timeline but plans are set well.

May be someone with more insight can clarify.

 

[Pathan khan]

Well u might be right but u can see agosta 90 on google earth in PN Dockyard .there is no other submarine building facility present.
Yes Azmat Tug boat and submarine has nothing to do with this deal but my point was that the three docks KSEW has are possed by these three projects.
While three years was average .

 

[ziaulislam]

there is no confusion, 1st four subs will be completed by 2023 in china and last 4 by 2028 in pakistan
pakistan will probably start building subs by 2022 with each to follow every 12-16 months

it fits the time period, pakistani workers will be trained in china on first 1-2 subs so by the time 3rd sub is being build inc c china, we may start building them here

 

[khanasifm]

???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
Displacement: 3,600 t (3,500 long tons) (submerged) ??
Torpedoes, Sub Launched Anti Ship and Land Attacked Cruise Missile
6, 533 mm or 21 inch or almost 2 ft (24 inches) weapon launch tubes
Already reported it bigger and heavier then current AIP A-90b

 

[Penguin]

???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YJ-18
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
Displacement: 3,600 t (3,500 long tons) (submerged) ??
Torpedoes, Sub Launched Anti Ship and Land Attacked Cruise Missile
6, 533 mm or 21 inch or almost 2 ft (24 inches) weapon launch tubes
Already reported it bigger and heavier then current AIP A-90b

While bigger and heavier, there doesn't appear to be much difference in other parameters. I expect the main difference to be in endurance (i.e. greater bunkerage, food supplies, number of weapons carrier on board.)

In April 2015, Pakistan approved purchase of 8 S20 class from China for $5 billion for Pakistan Navy. The deal was finalised on 23 July 2015. The main difference between S20 and Type 039A is that the AIP system on the original Type 039A is deleted, but can be available and easily integrated due to modular design of S20, if potential customers choose to purchase AIP systems separately.

I.E. AIP is not standard and costs extra.

 

[khanasifm]

1. No body know whats the exact sub specs (its with or w/o AIP ? etc.) but it is safe to assume AIP is part of it as PN has been operating AIP since 90s and its one of the first Navy with AIP
2. Specifications of S20: Structure: double hulled; Length: 66 meter; Beam: 8 meter; Draft: 8.2 meter; Surface displacement: 1850 tons; Submerged displacement: 2300 tons

Which is almost same as French Agosta 90b at-least in tonnage unless Chinese design due to double hull is so poor that French 2200/2300 tonnage sub merged and Chinese 35/3600 tonnage gives same internal capacity/room

All I read was PN/PN Staff statement somewhere most probably onlone in this form or other or may be in news its going to be bigger then A-90b

Single hull vs. double hull subs benefits vs. drawbacks

 

[FalconsForPeace]

China confirms export of eight submarines to Pakistan

China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation has confirmed a project to export eight attack submarines to Pakistan, top English newspaper of China People's Daily reported.

The corporation held a conference to discuss the details of the arrangement.

The corporation's chairman Hu Wenming, said the conference aimed to continue the spirit generated by Chinese President Xi Jinping's speeches on the Belt & Road Construction Work Symposium.

Reuters reported back in April that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif approved the deal and called the deal could be "one of China's largest overseas weapons sales once it is signed".

The deal could cost between 4 billion to 5 billion USD, Reuters quoted a Financial Times report.

Four of the eight submarines will reportedly be built at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW) while the remaining four submarines will be built in China.

When being asked about the deal last year, China's Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hua Chunying said:" China and Pakistan are neighbors of traditional friendship with close cooperation in various fields. The normal cooperation between the two sides in the field of military industry and trade is in line with their respective international commitment".

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/157620-China-confirms-export-of-eight-submarines-to-Pakistan

 

[imadul]

A QUOTE="The Eagle, post: 8642327, member: 172779"]Just gave my assessment.

What if we are upgrading the KSEW to handle new Sub project by now. FAC Azmat, survey ship and tug docks have nothing to do with this so also 90b is going through upgradation in specific dock which would be busy till all 4 upgraded.

Ormara could be an option and who knows however situation is bit of complex in contexts of such statements though I did share what I sees.

N Sub is just a rumor though building one would be an option but for future indeed, nobody says No to have it.

Going by average of 3 years per Sub, it would be injustice to expect Pakistan assembled Subs within 10 years from the day it starts to assemble so indeed needs More clarification on timeline but plans are set well.

May be someone with more insight can clarify.[/QUOTE]
A little off track but related question... Did pakistan got its hands on hacked indian scorpene documents?