HAL's PMF/FGFA: The Truths You Always Suspected!

[arp2041]

HAL displayed a scale model of the PMF/FGFA, which it is 'co-developing' with Sukhoi, at Aero India 2013. What is the scope of the co-development?

I try and provide some answers below, based on my discussion with an HAL official at Aero India 2013.

An HAL design team has been in Russia for a while.

The product page of HAL's website says, "PMF/FGFA will be co-developed with Russians. Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) has been selected as the Russian agency for this development project."

Several Indian military blogs have promoted the idea that the PMF/FGFA is being custom built for the IAF by Sukhoi and HAL based on the T-50 design.

Before the start of Aero India, one military blog talked about HAL unveiling its design of the PMF/FGFA at Aero India 2013. The blog had earlier 'leaked' a graphic showing the design of the PMF/FGFA.

Most of what has been written about the PMF/FGFA in the Indian military press is hype.

Here are my thoughts on the issue, based on my discussion with the HAL official.

The PMF/FGFA is not based on the PAK-FA/T-50, it is the PAK-FA/T-50!

There is no co-development as far as the aerodynamic design of the aircraft is concerned. There was never a new design to be leaked. The scale model on display at the HAL pavilion at Aero India 2013 was a scale model of the PAK-FA/T-50.

Physically, the PMF/FGFA is as different from the PAK-FA/T-50, just as the Su-30MKI is externally not different from the Su-30M.

The sensor suite and cockpit instrumentation on the PMF/FGFA will differ just as they differ in the Su-30MKI and Su-30M.

The PMF/FGFA will have a sensor suite that fits the role that the IAF envisages for it, which is different from the role that the Russian AF expects the PAK-FA/T-50 to play.

The PMF/FGFA will have instrumentation and displays of IAF's choice.

So what is the HAL design team doing in Russia?

I couldn't speak to an HAL official at Aero India who seemed to know. My guess is the design team is imbibing control law, sensor fusion, and other weapon attack and defense software algorithms being developed by the Russians for the aircraft, so that the IAF can tweak them to meet its requirements in the future.

It's inevitable that the HAL design team will learn a lot about stealth in the process of mastering the PMF/FGFA software. But don't expect HAL to start building its own stealth aircraft using the technology.

ADA is well ahead in the game and will remain the only agency capable of designing stealth aircraft in India for a long time to come.

When it comes to fighters, HAL prefers to be just a production agency, despite having first built a fighter in the country in the early sixties.

Will ADA's AMCA Gain From PMF/FGFA Co-development?

The simple answer is no. These are two independent programs and since the Indians are not Chinese it will remain that way.

Single or Twin Seater?

There was a lot of talk initially that the PMF/FGFA will be a twin seat variant of the T-50.

Despite the IAF's known preference for twin seat fighters, it has been decided to drop the idea of a twin seat PMF/FGFA, for the same reason that the AMCA is likely to be developed as a single seater. The reason being: Putting a second seat compromises the stealth characteristics of a fighter designed as a single seater, no matter what you do.

For the PMF/FGFA to be a twin seater, it would have to be co-developed from scratch. (Note the absence of quotes around co-developed!).

The truth is, HAL will not be ready for a geniuine co-development for many more decades.

Some twin seat versions of the PMF/FGFA will be built, but they will be largely for training squadron pilots.

HAL's Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (PMF/FGFA): The Truths You Always Suspected!

My take: Though These aspects were always suspected but they were purely SPECULATIVE at best.

Good Thing: IAF can induct FGFA sooner as it will not be much different than Russian PAK-FA.
Bad Thing: There is not much tech. gain for India from the project as was thought earlier.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

makes sense and you are right it's a good thing in short term(FGFA) but bad thing for the AMCA Development.

 

[Sergi]

More confusion. If FGFA is PAK-FA itself why in the world HAL wants to build the the protos for ??? Russains already test everything and by the time HAL would make the protos RuAF would have some SQUDs inducted.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

More confusion. If FGFA is PAK-FA itself why in the world HAL wants to build the the protos for ??? Russains already test everything and by the time HAL would make the protos RuAF would have some SQUDs inducted.

Prototypes will come from russia, HAL will not make any prototype. HAL will only integrate Indian and western Avionics into the prototypes and flight test them to satisfy IAF requirements.

 

[Sergi]

Prototypes will come from russia, HAL will not make any prototype. HAL will only integrate Indian and western Avionics into the prototypes and flight test them to satisfy IAF requirements.

HAL said that few weeks ago. It's in sticky thread. Search
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...-updates-news-discussions-79.html#post3892581 post #1183 #1185

 

[Dash]

More confusion. If FGFA is PAK-FA itself why in the world HAL wants to build the the protos for ??? Russains already test everything and by the time HAL would make the protos RuAF would have some SQUDs inducted.

its high time that we stop believing in these hour is who spread false pretensions.
building the prototype was an option when they wanted a twin seater but now they are going for single seated ones then it won't make any sense at all.

In many ways it is good that they are going for single seated ones. It would avoid lot of delays. You can induct FGFA at a gap of just a year post its finalization with only avionics.

 

[Sergi]

its high time that we stop believing in these hour is who spread false pretensions.
building the prototype was an option when they wanted a twin seater but now they are going for single seated ones then it won't make any sense at all.

In many ways it is good that they are going for single seated ones. It would avoid lot of delays. You can induct FGFA at a gap of just a year post its finalization with only avionics.

See above link. The mentioned HAL press confference isn't a month old too. And it's HAL itself nobody else is saying

 

[KRAIT]

@arp2041 I think it is good don't you think. We won't have to wait too much and rely on HAL for this. Delay is much worse. We already have AMCA program (of course it's medium class) and we can use Russian assistance. Considering ToT from France on Rafale, I think it is fine. We don't know whether HAL would have been capable to inculcate the Technology transfer and deliver FGFA earlier along with Rafale ToT and manufacturing LCA MK-II.

 

[TakeNoBS]

Prototypes will come from russia, HAL will not make any prototype. HAL will only integrate Indian and western Avionics into the prototypes and flight test them to satisfy IAF requirements.

So is it safe to say that India will contribute to PAKFA/FGFA as much as it did to SU30-MKI. SU-30MKI is a successful plane. So if India focus on this plane and try to get it inducted, than India is in a good shape.

 

[born]

Good News .
This makes a lot of sense . Also the news kind of explains the much debated 2016/17 induction date .

 

[arp2041]

@KRAIT, this is STEP BY STEP development & i am happy that HAL/IAF is not becoming too ambitious with the FGFA project & committing the same blunder as was done in case of LCA.

In late 1990s we bought, the sukhoi-30 base version from Russia off the shelf (since time was not on our side).

In 2001, we signed the contract with sukhoi to license produce sukhoi-30 with some major changes like incorporating French & Israeli avionics into the base version named as MKI version.

Earlier when we were license producing the ac, we used to get complete knock down kits from the Russians which we just assembled together.

Than slowly & Steadily with time we are making all parts of the MKIs completely indigenously (including the engine & radar).

If you look at the PROJECT - FGFA, I am just seeing the History Repeating Itself.

Welcome Home T-50MKI.

I think @sancho & @Abingdonboy can shed some more light.

 

[Awesome]

My take: Though These aspects were always suspected but they were purely SPECULATIVE at best.

Good Thing: IAF can induct FGFA sooner as it will not be much different than Russian PAK-FA.
Bad Thing: There is not much tech. gain for India from the project as was thought earlier.

They are still speculative at best.

 

[KRAIT]

@arp2041 Agreed. We could have used Russians scientists help especially after Soviet break down when Russia asked us to employ their scientists and they got jobs in China.

We never asked for consultancy in LCA like we got from Russia in SSBN project.

I hope people become more practical and rational rather than emotional.

 

[Koovie]

HAL displayed a scale model of the PMF/FGFA, which it is 'co-developing' with Sukhoi, at Aero India 2013. What is the scope of the co-development?

I try and provide some answers below, based on my discussion with an HAL official at Aero India 2013.

An HAL design team has been in Russia for a while.

The product page of HAL's website says, "PMF/FGFA will be co-developed with Russians. Sukhoi Design Bureau (SDB) has been selected as the Russian agency for this development project."

Several Indian military blogs have promoted the idea that the PMF/FGFA is being custom built for the IAF by Sukhoi and HAL based on the T-50 design.

Before the start of Aero India, one military blog talked about HAL unveiling its design of the PMF/FGFA at Aero India 2013. The blog had earlier 'leaked' a graphic showing the design of the PMF/FGFA.

Most of what has been written about the PMF/FGFA in the Indian military press is hype.

Here are my thoughts on the issue, based on my discussion with the HAL official.

The PMF/FGFA is not based on the PAK-FA/T-50, it is the PAK-FA/T-50!

There is no co-development as far as the aerodynamic design of the aircraft is concerned. There was never a new design to be leaked. The scale model on display at the HAL pavilion at Aero India 2013 was a scale model of the PAK-FA/T-50.

Physically, the PMF/FGFA is as different from the PAK-FA/T-50, just as the Su-30MKI is externally not different from the Su-30M.

The sensor suite and cockpit instrumentation on the PMF/FGFA will differ just as they differ in the Su-30MKI and Su-30M.

The PMF/FGFA will have a sensor suite that fits the role that the IAF envisages for it, which is different from the role that the Russian AF expects the PAK-FA/T-50 to play.

The PMF/FGFA will have instrumentation and displays of IAF's choice.

So what is the HAL design team doing in Russia?

I couldn't speak to an HAL official at Aero India who seemed to know. My guess is the design team is imbibing control law, sensor fusion, and other weapon attack and defense software algorithms being developed by the Russians for the aircraft, so that the IAF can tweak them to meet its requirements in the future.

It's inevitable that the HAL design team will learn a lot about stealth in the process of mastering the PMF/FGFA software. But don't expect HAL to start building its own stealth aircraft using the technology.

ADA is well ahead in the game and will remain the only agency capable of designing stealth aircraft in India for a long time to come.

When it comes to fighters, HAL prefers to be just a production agency, despite having first built a fighter in the country in the early sixties.

Will ADA's AMCA Gain From PMF/FGFA Co-development?

The simple answer is no. These are two independent programs and since the Indians are not Chinese it will remain that way.

Single or Twin Seater?

There was a lot of talk initially that the PMF/FGFA will be a twin seat variant of the T-50.

Despite the IAF's known preference for twin seat fighters, it has been decided to drop the idea of a twin seat PMF/FGFA, for the same reason that the AMCA is likely to be developed as a single seater. The reason being: Putting a second seat compromises the stealth characteristics of a fighter designed as a single seater, no matter what you do.

For the PMF/FGFA to be a twin seater, it would have to be co-developed from scratch. (Note the absence of quotes around co-developed!).

The truth is, HAL will not be ready for a geniuine co-development for many more decades.

Some twin seat versions of the PMF/FGFA will be built, but they will be largely for training squadron pilots.

HAL's Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (PMF/FGFA): The Truths You Always Suspected!

My take: Though These aspects were always suspected but they were purely SPECULATIVE at best.

Good Thing: IAF can induct FGFA sooner as it will not be much different than Russian PAK-FA.
Bad Thing: There is not much tech. gain for India from the project as was thought earlier.

Does not mean that we wont get access to technology!

 

[Storm Force]

IF we have learnt one thing from LCA TEJAS programme versis JF17 THUNDER in Pakistan.

ITS BETTER TO GET HELP TO START WITH

WE have access to help that china & pakistan (our likely adverasries) CAN ONLY DREAM OF ie

ELTA of ISRAEL ,,,,, DASSULT of FRANCE ,,,, & SUKHOI of RUSSIA. take it AND learn to license build first taking as much TOT AS WE can buy $$$$

then build you own LATER