Half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems

[Arsalan]

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.

The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a “cost of Rs 2 crore each” but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the “operational preparedness” of the IAF.

All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF,” an official said.

The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. “It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts,” said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.
Former Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said: “When the missiles were bought, they were top of the line, world class systems that no other country had. As we did not have our own testing facilities, they had to be tested in Russia. The question to be asked is whether the government approved testing facilities for the missiles in India.”

---------- Post added at 08:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 PM ----------

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report

and the forum is just full of post claimimg them to be the best in the world!

regards!

 

[duhastmish]

first we heard -

SU-30 had some glitch

mig-29 has tail problem

kaveri cant be made

missile from israel had lot of - corruption in face of bribe

russian - cheating us on aircraft carrier.

mrca delayed

chandrayan failing

now these missile are goner tooo ???

so much for SUPER INDIA ????? lol what a joke - we are like strong on paper in reality its totally opposite..

over hyped !!!!

 

[Penguin]

and the forum is just full of post claimimg them to be the best in the world!

regards!

The fact that R-77 apparently don't live up to their expected shelf life does not mean 'young' R-77s are crappy missiles. It would be reckless and irresponsible to assume so. Missile shelf life would normally be 10-20 years, depending on the missile, the manner of its packaging, and storage conditions (for an MLRS rocket, for example, it is 15 years and for Maverick it is 10. For Javelin ATGW is is also 10 years). Consider that the earliest delivered missiles are by now 13 years old! By comparison, the shelf life of e.g. the R-27 and R-73 missiles is much less, more like 8-10 years)

See also
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18280
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=43841

1. Pylon life vs storage life
Missiles typically have a set number of hours that they can be carried on pylons in flight. Vibrations can eventually mess up things of an internal nature (notably electronic components). That's only normal.

2. Life cycle of a solid propelled missile
Solid propellant missiles have shelf lives of a set number of years. Beyond that point, the propellant is not guaranteed to actually ignite or burn consistently (NB: nor is it guaranteed that the propellant WONT ignite or burn consistently! However it becomes more of a game of chance). Storing such weapons for a decade or two (like in the case of the sealed missiles for the S-300P series) normally won't affect their (engine) performance.

Finally, you have to consider who is saying what and why.
a. It is the purpose of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) to find and root out 'waste and abuse' of government money: this is how the existence of the office is justified. Therefor, CAG will possibly report ins the most negative terms.
b. Former Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy appears to be making a sales pitch for setting up testing facilities in India so as to minimize reliance on existing facilities in Russia. I'm a skeptic and would not be surprised to find the retired military man now works for a handsome fee as consultant for some industry which would stand to gain contracts if a missile testing facility were to be set up in India. Because that's how these things work.

 

[Munir]

first we heard -

SU-30 had some glitch

mig-29 has tail problem

kaveri cant be made

missile from israel had lot of - corruption in face of bribe

russian - cheating us on aircraft carrier.

mrca delayed

chandrayan failing

now these missile are goner tooo ???

so much for SUPER INDIA ????? lol what a joke - we are like strong on paper in reality its totally opposite..

over hyped !!!!

That goes for every nation...

USA
F35 has enough problems, delays and cost overruns...
F22 needs resetting computers and repainting continuesly...
F15 brakes up in mid air...
F16 has reached end of upgrade levels...

India has a decent fleet. I am not their supporter (ideology and political) but their national programs like LCA do not go smoothly sofar.

 

[zavis2003]

WHy this happened?


Actually a corrupt democracy and no check and balance in real terms Showed India a Failure state
Such as Faailure in submarine Projecs
ARJUN TANK THE GREAT
LCA low capability aircraft
KEWARI engine and its Bio fuel
Agni III first tests

are some xample of clear failure

So its not new to Indians
as they are large nation and
know

BARAY BARAY DESHOUN MIAN AISY CHOTI CHOTI BATAIN HOTI HAIN

 

[Arsalan]

i hope we dont have liste to such news for our SD10! it is claimed to be a good BVRAAM, good foe our needs!

regards!

 

[Munir]

So expensive and so fast out of order?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/Sl9_xE5UoQI/AAAAAAAAA2A/D1ygut7QAyM/s1600-h/R-77-3.jpg

 

[aimarraul]

sorry to hear this ........

 

[Penguin]

So expensive and so fast out of order?

R-77-3.jpg (image)

Well, 8 years, of which 5 in open shed - read: exposed to elements (cold, heat, moisture) - is not so bad. Engine life is probably longer, but the electronics are sensitive and may be affected sooner.

But it does give you an idea of why arms trade can be good business ;-)

 

[Nihat]

Putting a big question mark on the performance of the Russian beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missiles with the Indian Air Force, an audit report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has noted that nearly half the missiles tested either did not home in on targets during evaluations or failed ground tests because they were ageing much before their shelf lives.
The R 77 (RVV-AE) BVR missiles, fitted on board the Su-30 MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21 Bisons, were bought from Russia starting 1996. More than 2,000 missiles were ordered after the Kargil conflict and 1,000 have been delivered.

The CAG report, which will be released soon, is based on evaluations of the missile — its range is close to 90 km — during ground tests, inspections and test firing by the IAF. The missiles were bought at a “cost of Rs 2 crore each” but their failure during tests, says the CAG report, has affected the “operational preparedness” of the IAF.
“All figures in the report are based on air force records. Everything is verified by the IAF,” an official said.

The problem with the missiles was referred to Russia and several teams subsequently visited India to rectify faults. IAF officers familiar with the missiles confirmed that this has been a problem area for long. “It is a known fact that the missiles do not work as we would like them to. Periodic tests that are carried out when they are in storage show their dismal state. We also have problems with spare parts,” said a retired officer who was closely associated with the matter.

Former Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy said: “When the missiles were bought, they were top of the line, world class systems that no other country had. As we did not have our own testing facilities, they had to be tested in Russia. The question to be asked is whether the government approved testing facilities for the missiles in India.

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report

Never really bothered with that personally, with the way that our GoI is bending backwards to terrorists and their sponsorers , I highly doubt we would ever even come close to using these things.

 

[sancho]

i hope we dont have liste to such news for our SD10! it is claimed to be a good BVRAAM, good foe our needs!

regards!

If the problem is the electronics, the SD 10 could have similar problems:

Description

The SD-10 is outwardly very similar to the US-designed AIM-120 AMRAAM. The two share a comparable aerodynamic configuration, although with a length of 3.85m, a diameter of 20.3 cm and a weight of 180 kg the SD-10 is a little longer, wider and heavier than the AMRAAM. The SD-10 has four rear-mounted control fins that each have a very distinctive notch cut into their base. These fins are longer and more prominent than those of the AMRAAM and are cropped at an angle (rather than in line with the missile body). Four larger triangular fins are fixed to the mid-section of the missile. Internally, the leading edge of the centrebody fins is in line with the start of the missile's rocket motor. That motor is a variable-thrust sold rocket booster, that offers two levels of motive power for different sections of the flight envelope.
CATIC is known to be developing X-band and Ku-band active radar seekers, which may be intended for the SD-10. However the latest reports confirm that China has been co-operating closely with Russia's AGAT Research Institute, based in Moscow, and that AGAT is the source of the SD-10's essential active seeker. This joint development effort (perhaps with the name 'Project 129') has reportedly seen the supply of AGAT's 9B-1348 active-radar seeker (developed for the Vympel R-77, AA-12 'Adder') to China for integration with a Chinese-developed missile, the SD-10. Alternatively, technology from AGAT's 9B-1103M seeker family may be offered to China. Russia is also the source for the missile's inertial navigation system and datalink....
The SD-10 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the SD-10 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse.
The SD-10 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of 20 km, with a maximum effective range of 70 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 40 g manoeuvring limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life.

JDW: China SD-10 Missile Technology (maybe better than U.S. AIM-120 missile )

 

[Rin]

Russian weapons are highly unreliable