HAL HLFT-42: Lead In Fighter Trainer Project

[MirageBlue]

I am aware of all the infos you have mentioned, still I don't find the need for the newer jet. Instead they should have doubled down on developing the existing projects like Tejas MK2 or AMCA both which has been delayed by few yrs or if we wanted to challenge ourselves we should have gone for TEDBF which would be different class and a completely new twin engine design. This is good chance to replace the Su30MKIs in the future along with AMCA as well as complementing MRFA/Naval jet(F18or Rafale). This new single engine jet no purpose to IAF. If we wanted a stage 4 trainer jet we could have easily gone for Tejas LIFT, no sense in making a clean sheet/maruti type design again.Complete Wastage of time and resource in my view.

What do you mean by "challenge ourselves"?

Tejas Mk2, AMCA and TEDBF are all sanctioned programs in a way. the Services are all behind them and work is on-going.

HAL has the resources to start this program otherwise they wouldn't. They're not fools. They're going to be spending internal resources to get this to some stage of concept design at least in the next couple of years and perhaps even to PDR stage assuming the IAF shows some interest.

Hawks are already getting older in the IAF, having entered service in February 2008. The oldest Hawks in the IAF are 15 years old and not getting any younger. What HAL is targeting is those Hawks' replacement which will be needed in the next 10 years. They can't start working on that 5 years from now and then have a situation where there is no Indian LIFT to replace those Hawks.

Remember, HAL didn't need to do HTT-40. In fact the IAF ACM NAK Browne (a thoroughly useless tenure he had) even publicly rebuked HAL for working on HTT-40 saying that they had the PC-7 Mk2 and didn't need HTT-40. Well, as things stand, we all know what went on with the Pilatus PC-7 Mk2 and how it got selected and how there was a major push to get it a follow-on order as well. Versus today, after HAL used internal designers and it's own internal funding to develop the HTT-40, it has sailed through trials and several billion $ of orders will stay within India, rather than going to a Swiss company.

Even before the HTT-40, there was a HAL program to develop a tandem seater turboprop trainer. The IAF didn't show any interest whatsoever and the program died. Only almost 12 years later the IAF woke up and said the HPT-32 was a terribly unreliable basic trainer and they urgently needed imports, after which they set it up such that the PC-7 Mk2 was selected. Had HAL gone ahead and developed that turboprop on it's own, there needn't have ever been any PC-7 Mk2 imports.

Anyway, my rants aside, trust me, if HAL doesn't have designers, CFD specialists and structural engineers available to work on this program, it wouldn't be pushed through.

Even now, this is just a concept, just as Jaguar MAX was a concept to convert 2 seat Jaguars into a drone controlling mothership. Let's see if HAL is willing to fund it on it's own money or not. And also let's see how interested the IAF is in this LIFT.

and shows, India wants again all in one !
Why not indeed a simple affordable supersonic trainer like the Hürjet and not again a type that is de facto too close to the Tejas?

Even more it is an IMO not very clever decision since the market for supersonic jet trainers is already more than crowded with competitors, proven capable competitors and with India‘s aim to develop the Tejas Mk.2, the AMCA, the TEDBF … now a new transport!
Why so much and all at once?

What's the difference between Hurjet and what is being proposed here?

Not sure about exports, but one thing is for sure, India shouldn't have to IMPORT any LIFT. Neither T-7A, not T-50 nor Hurjet. THAT would be a complete travesty, given how capable the Indian industry is to be able to deliver an indigenous solution for that requirement.

If the Tejas is considered too sophisticated to be a simpler LIFT and too costly as a result, then I'm beginning to think that a simpler, HLFT-42 makes much more sense.

 

[migflug]

What do you mean by "challenge ourselves"?

Tejas Mk2, AMCA and TEDBF are all sanctioned programs in a way. the Services are all behind them and work is on-going.

HAL has the resources to start this program otherwise they wouldn't. They're not fools. They're going to be spending internal resources to get this to some stage of concept design at least in the next couple of years and perhaps even to PDR stage assuming the IAF shows some interest.
--> The same claim was made about Tejas MK2 that they will use internal budget to make the prototype and now there is delay of 2-3 yrs, people claim that sanctioned money for MK2 came late. If they have so much "money" for these useless projects, they can easily build prototypes for the MK2 by now, which was claimed to be made by Aug 2022, and now has been deffered to 24-25.

Hawks are already getting older in the IAF, having entered service in February 2008. The oldest Hawks in the IAF are 15 years old and not getting any younger. What HAL is targeting is those Hawks' replacement which will be needed in the next 10 years. They can't start working on that 5 years from now and then have a situation where there is no Indian LIFT to replace those Hawks.

-- IAF is using Mig 21 from 60s, lets not kid ourself that they will replace Hawks anytime soon. Kiran was used for 50yrs. And there nothing this aircraft brings to the table(except cost due to it being an all metal frame body), that Tejas LIFT can't do. If HAL has so much manpower and money to invest, why not made few prototypes of LIFT from scratch and sell to IAF/foreign market. This plane is just a excuse to keep making useless projects to keep the money inflowing.

Remember, HAL didn't need to do HTT-40. In fact the IAF ACM NAK Browne (a thoroughly useless tenure he had) even publicly rebuked HAL for working on HTT-40 saying that they had the PC-7 Mk2 and didn't need HTT-40. Well, as things stand, we all know what went on with the Pilatus PC-7 Mk2 and how it got selected and how there was a major push to get it a follow-on order as well. Versus today, after HAL used internal designers and it's own internal funding to develop the HTT-40, it has sailed through trials and several billion $ of orders will stay within India, rather than going to a Swiss company.

-- Yes HTT40 should be inducted and delivered as soon as possible. If HAL keeps getting distracted by these projects, don't know how they will maintain the timeline for their assured delivery.

Even before the HTT-40, there was a HAL program to develop a tandem seater turboprop trainer. The IAF didn't show any interest whatsoever and the program died. Only almost 12 years later the IAF woke up and said the HPT-32 was a terribly unreliable basic trainer and they urgently needed imports, after which they set it up such that the PC-7 Mk2 was selected. Had HAL gone ahead and developed that turboprop on it's own, there needn't have ever been any PC-7 Mk2 imports.

Anyway, my rants aside, trust me, if HAL doesn't have designers, CFD specialists and structural engineers available to work on this program, it wouldn't be pushed through.

Even now, this is just a concept, just as Jaguar MAX was a concept to convert 2 seat Jaguars into a drone controlling mothership. Let's see if HAL is willing to fund it on it's own money or not. And also let's see how interested the IAF is in this LIFT.



What's the difference between Hurjet and what is being proposed here?

-- It wont have fly by wire technology and it will be all metal body to keep the price low. HAL probably wants to capture Hurjet/F50 market. But they should instead focus on closing the foreover ongoing projects. In corporate language, these PSUs just never seem to close their projects.

 

[MirageBlue]

There you go, more details on the proposed HLFT-42 by Shiv Aroor

HAL unveils clean sheet supersonic trainer

In 2019, HAL had provided a glimpse of what would finally end up being the HLFT-42. At the time, it announced an LCA-based trainer designated SPORT (Supersonic Omni Role Trainer Aircraft). What began as simply a stripped down LCA Tejas or an ‘LCA Lite’ has now transformed into a very different airframe platform being proposed. It is not cleat how the HLFT-42 compares with the LCA in terms of performance envelope — details expected to emerge at the AeroIndia show next week. You can read all about the SPORT program as it stood in 2019 here.

“HAL has decades of experience with trainers and fighters. It has picked up best attributes from all its design houses,” a senior HAL pilot told Livefist.

Air Marshal Anil Chopra (Retd.), Director of the Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS) and a veteran Mirage 2000 pilot told Livefist, “Lead in fighter trainers are meant to train pilots just before they induct into main line combat squadrons. Prima facie the proposed HLFT 42 looks like the HAL produced HF-24 Marut fighter, but the trainer will be single engine. It will be supersonic. The engine initially is likely to be GE 404. Also to make it much more manoeuvres it would have unstable aerodynamic design and fly by wire active controls technology. HAL’s experience on the Hawk i would be embedded. It could then take on the role of what MiG operational flying traing units (MOFTU) took on. There is a clearly designated slot for LFTs in military flying training.“

 

[MirageBlue]

-- IAF is using Mig 21 from 60s, lets not kid ourself that they will replace Hawks anytime soon. Kiran was used for 50yrs. And there nothing this aircraft brings to the table(except cost due to it being an all metal frame body), that Tejas LIFT can't do. If HAL has so much manpower and money to invest, why not made few prototypes of LIFT from scratch and sell to IAF/foreign market. This plane is just a excuse to keep making useless projects to keep the money inflowing.


-- Yes HTT40 should be inducted and delivered as soon as possible. If HAL keeps getting distracted by these projects, don't know how they will maintain the timeline for their assured delivery.

-- It wont have fly by wire technology and it will be all metal body to keep the price low. HAL probably wants to capture Hurjet/F50 market. But they should instead focus on closing the foreover ongoing projects. In corporate language, these PSUs just never seem to close their projects.

It won't have FBW technology? Says who?

And how much of it will be alloy versus composite, that HAL hasn't even disclosed, so you're jumping the gun by calling it as "all metal body" like it's some automobile.

Anyway I'm not going to keep arguing with you on the merits of this program. That's for HAL and IAF and MoD to decide.

You can keep arguing that HAL is doing this "useless project" to keep the money in flowing, even though they're actually spending their own money without any govt. support as such.

Exports are a far away option. The first priority is the possible indigenous market. THAT market cannot be lost to some T-7A, T-50 or Hurjet in the next 10 years.

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624647845633724416

Heavily influenced by HF-24.

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624736245787267073

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624650436082036738

 

[indushek]

not even close.

The HLFT-42 is a clean sheet design. But I'm puzzled myself as to why they're going with a single engine design instead of HTFE-25 based twin engine LFTA. It would then imply a GE F-404 derivative engine to achieve wet thrust of 80+ kN (can see the afterburner nozzle in the CGI). Basically in the T-50/Hurjet class.

Which is strange since there was the LCA SPORT based on the Tejas twin seater that was apparently in the works earlier as a Lead in Fighter Trainer. Most of the development was already done thanks to the fact that it was meant to be a Tejas twin seater derivative with a new cockpit, ACMI, synthetic training aids, etc.

This HLFT-42 is of course just a HAL concept as of now with seemingly no ADA involvement. Without IAF support it cannot go anywhere since the costs to develop this will be quite significant. There is of course the Tejas Mk1A for all of the IAF's light fighter requirements so I'm not sure it makes sense.

I had always thought that a clean sheet AJT design would be the next HAL project, to act as the next generation Hawk replacement. But this appears to be an out and out supersonic trainer/ light fighter with all the weapons shown in the CGI.

Await more clarity in a few days at Aero India 2023.

What is the chance of Kaveri making it to this? I read somewhere it currently produces, 46KN dry and 76KN wet thrust.

 

[Two banks of the River]

What is the chance of Kaveri making it to this? I read somewhere it currently produces, 46KN dry and 76KN wet thrust.

53 kN dry Kaveri is currently under works. DRDO confirmed this.

 

[indushek]

53 kN dry Kaveri is currently under works. DRDO confirmed this.

That will take the wet thrust to about 90KN right? similar to GE - 404?
Any news on the high altitude trials, they keep mentioning it's sent to Russia for, for certification? I haven't heard any update after that.

 

[Two banks of the River]

That will take the wet thrust to about 90KN right? similar to GE - 404?
Any news on the high altitude trials, they keep mentioning it's sent to Russia for, for certification? I haven't heard any update after that.

As of now only confirmed effort is 53kN dry Kaveri. Work is going on and funds provided.

 

[Faceless]

whya re we throwing money on this good for nothing program when we already have Tejas LiFT (SPORT version) program running, what new capability does this plane bring.

HAL To Unveil LCA-Based Sport Trainer Jet Proposal

At Aero India, HAL will propose a new jet trainer based on the LCA Tejas and built to relieve pressure on frontline operational fighters.

www.livefistdefence.com

If HAL has extra internal funds divert them towards AMCA or Tejas Mk2 so that these programs don't face any more delays, (One of the major excuses by HAL on delays caused in the tejas mk2 program was lack of funds)
HAL acts like they will lose money if they spend internal funds on a MoD sponsered project. this should not be acceptable

 

[Two banks of the River]

whya re we throwing money on this good for nothing program when we already have Tejas LiFT (SPORT version) program running, what new capability does this plane bring.

HAL To Unveil LCA-Based Sport Trainer Jet Proposal

At Aero India, HAL will propose a new jet trainer based on the LCA Tejas and built to relieve pressure on frontline operational fighters.

www.livefistdefence.com

If HAL has extra internal funds divert them towards AMCA or Tejas Mk2 so that these programs don't face any more delays, (One of the major excuses by HAL on delays caused in the tejas mk2 program was lack of funds)
HAL acts like they will lose money if they spend internal funds on a MoD sponsered project. this should not be acceptable

ARDC vs ADA.

 

[Two banks of the River]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624791002883186689

 

[VkdIndian]

Developing a completely new aircraft would have its own cycle of development, certification and then new production line. The logistics and maintenance would also need to be independently established. Separate training of personnel for maintenance would also add to the cost.

HAL isn’t a novice to not have identified these aspects. They would have also got some feedback from the IAF before going ahead with the project.

Wondering, why Tejas trainer couldn’t be stripped down of stuff not required for training and offered as a solution.
One big factor could be the usage of Kaveri engine in LIFT. That can make it a completely Make in India product and keep the cost very low compared to even a stripped down Tejas but with a GE engine.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624791002883186689

Sorry to say so, but this „THING“ is ugly as hell, plain ridiculous in its loading - not even a MKI usually carries usually 8 LR-AAMs - …