HAL Ambitious on Helicopters, as Indian Requirements Multiply

[IndianArmy]

well i will take u r word for it sir, but in my visit to nasik plant, i found several low level guys sleeping in hanger conveniently taking a nap from 2PM-3 PM after lunch. can any commercial organisation afford to do that?

They Might be Sweepers or Daily wage People....

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

sir, as a research analyst who has covered defence topics for over 12 yrs, and who knows colour of their uniform, i think u can trust me on my words.

 

[IndianArmy]

sir, as a research analyst who has covered defence topics for over 12 yrs, and who knows colour of their uniform, i think u can trust me on my words.

Well.... If you are then I do trust you....

 

[duhastmish]

guns n roses , u hit the nail on the head.

most web blog guys are too over the top patriotically inclined toward these hal, drdo guys and their web ethics.

while they have no clue about the organization. In my recent visit to dehradun drdo labs, i realized that work ethics are actually deteriorating these guys are not paid any less. a young engineer is paid a sum of 45,000 rupees a month . which is way too much for his degree ( from a substandard university ) and he is given a residence inside the campus + too many perks and holidays. he left for work around 11 and then in one hour he came back - just to go n get some ice cream from outside for his guests which included me.

i felt sick for the work ethics of these guys. same is the case of hal pay scale is too bl00dy high for their productivity. most guys are living on the extra money they make from tenders and outsource products run by their own families.

its not a pleasant to see these young kids becoming worst the past era babus. atleast they were not too serious about their work but now they are here just to churn any money possible by hooks or crooks.

 

[IndianArmy]

guns n roses , u hit the nail on the head.

most web blog guys are too over the top patriotically inclined toward these hal, drdo guys and their web ethics.

while they have no clue about the organization. In my recent visit to dehradun drdo labs, i realized that work ethics are actually deteriorating these guys are not paid any less. a young engineer is paid a sum of 45,000 rupees a month . which is way too much for his degree ( from a substandard university ) and he is given a residence inside the campus + too many perks and holidays. he left for work around 11 and then in one hour he came back - just to go n get some ice cream from outside for his guests which included me.

i felt sick for the work ethics of these guys. same is the case of hal pay scale is too bl00dy high for their productivity. most guys are living on the extra money they make from tenders and outsource products run by their own families.

its not a pleasant to see these young kids becoming worst the past era babus. atleast they were not too serious about their work but now they are here just to churn any money possible by hooks or crooks.

In IBM , there are People named Think Tanks, There job is to sit on a sofa, switch on there AC... And think and Get an Idea, If that has been a Part of Corporate Ethics for odd generations the HAL or DRDO laborers Spending time for there Guests is In No way inferior.... Or Is It because they do not have a Modern Style lab Coats and Small Bags for Tools to showoff??

Todays Ethics are in mere showoffs.... HAL and DRDO are Serious in what they do, You cannot blame them as You and I cannot replace them...

 

[duhastmish]

In IBM , there are People named Think Tanks, There job is to sit on a sofa, switch on there AC... And think and Get an Idea, If that has been a Part of Corporate Ethics for odd generations the HAL or DRDO laborers Spending time for there Guests is In No way inferior.... Or Is It because they do not have a Modern Style lab Coats and Small Bags for Tools to showoff??

Todays Ethics are in mere showoffs.... HAL and DRDO are Serious in what they do, You cannot blame them as You and I cannot replace them...

hi brother,
i think agains your are being overly patriotic about drdo and hal.
1. i dont appreciate the whole idea of not being dedicated to work.
2. these jobs are mostly given to family members of their own. you can see the generations of drdo and hal people working in same place. whole family uncle papa aunt cousin brother in law etc etc.
3. most deserving candidate cant even get through the round of interview.
4. corruption level is too high.
5. nobody is accountable - if the project is delayed by 10 years , nobody can fire anybody.
6. the qualification level of these engineer is not right up there to be part of such organizations.
7. they make money from - outsourcing the project to their own factories.
8. most project are started and never fulfilled. but nobody to question them
9. too many holidays.
10. don't even compare them to top - engineer and mba from - IIT AND IIM. those guys who sit and think are working for MNC. their job is too tough - these multinational squeeze every ounce of your bloody before they pay you back.

cheers.

the best possible deal is to involve private players involved with these firm.

also - make it more corporate - open structure , where people know who will be accountable - if project delays - kick the hell out of that official. they are just doing their job, there are there because of love for country.

infect a guy working as a grocery store owner might be doing more favour to his country than these guys.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

guns n roses , u hit the nail on the head.

most web blog guys are too over the top patriotically inclined toward these hal, drdo guys and their web ethics.

while they have no clue about the organization. In my recent visit to dehradun drdo labs, i realized that work ethics are actually deteriorating these guys are not paid any less. a young engineer is paid a sum of 45,000 rupees a month . which is way too much for his degree ( from a substandard university ) and he is given a residence inside the campus + too many perks and holidays. he left for work around 11 and then in one hour he came back - just to go n get some ice cream from outside for his guests which included me.

i felt sick for the work ethics of these guys. same is the case of hal pay scale is too bl00dy high for their productivity. most guys are living on the extra money they make from tenders and outsource products run by their own families.

its not a pleasant to see these young kids becoming worst the past era babus. atleast they were not too serious about their work but now they are here just to churn any money possible by hooks or crooks.

well i always try to be objective in my assessment. having seen HAL and DRDO from close quarters, i feel a dramatic transformation is required. research and development cannot take place in normal 9 to 5 job. one needs zeal and proper support structure for that.

i am not against pay packages to these employees, but wat i look for is accountability on that front DRDO has been a lil let down of sorts. i also say its not entirely fault of HAL or DRDO guys, the govt and armed forces has also not supported them.

armed forces have repeatedly changed staff requirements which in turn has lead to delay in development. on many occasions we have gone for outright purchases rather then concentrate on our indegenous products. products/capability improve with time. a indegenous product with 85% capability is good enough beccause the next improvement will result in 95% or 100% capability. its better then going for out right purchase.

on that front navy is doing betetr as compared to army and airforces. i think the entry of indian private players like tata and mahindra will force Ordanace factories/DRDO/HAL to be more professional in their work culture.

 

[IndianArmy]

hi brother,
i think agains your are being overly patriotic about drdo and hal.
1. i dont appreciate the whole idea of not being dedicated to work.
2. these jobs are mostly given to family members of their own. you can see the generations of drdo and hal people working in same place. whole family uncle papa aunt cousin brother in law etc etc.
3. most deserving candidate cant even get through the round of interview.
4. corruption level is too high.
5. nobody is accountable - if the project is delayed by 10 years , nobody can fire anybody.
6. the qualification level of these engineer is not right up there to be part of such organizations.
7. they make money from - outsourcing the project to their own factories.
8. most project are started and never fulfilled. but nobody to question them
9. too many holidays.
10. don't even compare them to top - engineer and mba from - IIT AND IIM. those guys who sit and think are working for MNC. their job is too tough - these multinational squeeze every ounce of your bloody before they pay you back.

cheers

If we are in for a constructive argument I welcome it but you besides knowing the fact of reservations, and quotas In govt organization keep that as an Excuse to belittle There Performance..... Do you have any Idea of what tortures there engineers Undergo even if there are any slight technical Snags? and What you see outside is there smiling faces and Fresh Talent and with that you people decide it to be an Ametuar Org .... Do you think Engineers are sitting Lap on Lap and Aircrafts have there hand and Legs to Go and assemble all by itself???

The Only thing Govt org fail to do is reserve what they have created.... Inorder to do that, they need to attract the engineers with More money and Additional Facilities....

And What are those products which are outsourced to there own factories???

 

[duhastmish]

If we are in for a constructive argument I welcome it but you besides knowing the fact of reservations, and quotas In govt organization keep that as an Excuse to belittle There Performance..... Do you have any Idea of what tortures there engineers Undergo even if there are any slight technical Snags? and What you see outside is there smiling faces and Fresh Talent and with that you people decide it to be an Ametuar Org .... Do you think Engineers are sitting Lap on Lap and Aircrafts have there hand and Legs to Go and assemble all by itself???

The Only thing Govt org fail to do is reserve what they have created.... Inorder to do that, they need to attract the engineers with More money and Additional Facilities....

dear your really have no idea for amount of talent indian possess.

lca nd lch are nothing but under achievement by India. the amount of handwork an indan have to go through to survive. he is one of the toughest breed out there. people starve them self to educate their kids. i seen it in person. i know parents who go trough bus to their 30 kms far office but their son and daughter sure have vehicles. and those kids perform so bl00dy well. no wonder educated indian outside the country out perform almost all the races on their home turf.

i for myself dont think drdo and hal productive is a reflection of Indians. you are free to differ.

yes i think these guys are sitting lap on lap, and working too meagerly , still they are able to get these product out - yes late very very late and delayed.

And What are those products which are outsourced to there own factories???

------most of those small industrial product from spring coils to hydrolics -- all the spare - in merut , buland , gulab nagar there are 1000's of factories owned by drdo families.

 

[IndianArmy]

dear your really have no idea for amount of talent indian possess.

lca nd lch are nothing but under achievement by India. the amount of handwork an indan have to go through to survive. he is one of the toughest breed out there. people starve them self to educate their kids. i seen it in person. i know parents who go trough bus to their 30 kms far office but their son and daughter sure have vehicles. and those kids perform so bl00dy well. no wonder educated indian outside the country out perform almost all the races on their home turf.

i for myself dont think drdo and hal productive is a reflection of Indians. you are free to differ.

yes i think these guys are sitting lap on lap, and working too meagerly , still they are able to get these product out - yes late very very late and delayed.

------most of those small industrial product from spring coils to hydrolics -- all the spare - in merut , buland , gulab nagar there are 1000's of factories owned by drdo families.

Dear, I know better of What India is and What India was and what talent we possess and what we not, I dont think I need an Education about that, When I need it I am free to ask anyone

What have those above quoted things got to do with HAL and DRDO's Productiveness??? Have you ever been to any of the research labs of DRDO or HAL? Have You even Seen what Kind Of work they do?? and Next, You only know what has been published, but there are Serious other Reasons for there under productiveness when compared to the developed world.... Do you know whats the GDP percentage for Defense and Non Defense R&D , Not even close to what the developed countries in the mid 80's and still these organizations which you criticize have developed themselves into a Noticeable factor in mere 30-40 years from there very existence ...

And As far as Outsourcing, if they meet the Tender floated, there is No Harm in doing so.. Do You think there is??

 

[duhastmish]

What have those above written things got to do with HAL and DRDO's Productiveness??? Have you ever been to any of the research labs of DRDO or HAL? Have You even Seen what Kind Of work they do?? and Next, You only know what has been published, but there are Serious other Reasons for there under productiveness when compared to the developed world.... Do you know whats the GDP percentage for Defense and Non Defense R&D , Not even close to what the developed countries in the mid 80's and still these organizations which you criticize have developed themselves into a Noticeable factor in mere 30-40 years from there very existence ...

And As far as Outsourcing, if they meet the Tender floated, there is No Harm in doing so.. Do You think there is??

you really think these tender are awarded to rightful people ???????????? pfffttt get out your dream .. yo have to pay 30-35 % profit , of those 10% which are avilabe for people outside drdo employees. otherwise you wont get and if you get it your cheaque won be cleared.

corruption is the plague eating India and blindfoldness is worst disease for Indians.

and i seen it all in drdo and hal. way more closer and personal than most. i been and worked with lockheed martin Maryland. the gap is too big.

these drdo and hal are eating money from the govt. they are no good than DDA, MUNICIPAL COMMITTEE , WATER works , irrigation dptt. corrupt to their spine. the change needed is too big - you really need to go there and find it for your self.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

corruption happens in all countries and at all levels both public and private.

@indian army and @duhastmish : sir can we close this and get back to main topic.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Anybody Please answer my question...

nobody is accountable - if the project is delayed by 10 years , nobody can fire anybody.

Accountability is important.

i also say its not entirely fault of HAL or DRDO guys, the govt and armed forces has also not supported them.

Sir, OFB takes 30 years to build INSAS, now if army does not want them is it their fault ?/ But still under govt. pressure they purchased. Now Army is demanding new weapon and years after years their is no progress. 2 variants were produced but they failed the test. DRDO is now claiming to build some multi-caliber gun. I hope they build this time but still its disappointing.

armed forces have repeatedly changed staff requirements which in turn has lead to delay in development.

I know it was a great achievement for India to develop LCA and its a success but IAF is not happy. Why ??/ Because IAF had the need for this aircraft in 1990 not in 2011, 21 years after.
Armed forces are also responsible sometimes but mostly i think our defense sector is. Recently the work done by HAL on LCH and work done by DRDO on Arjun mk2 and AEW&CS is commendable.

i think the entry of indian private players like tata and mahindra will force Ordanace factories/DRDO/HAL to be more professional in their work culture.

I hope you are right but since no project is being given to them how can they compete. They are also happy because they will get offset but this won't help us. FICV is a nice project. We need more projects like this to support our defense companies. Helicopter projects can be given to Mahindra or Tata as both are working in this field, why should HAL gets all the benefit. Well at-least govt. should let them compete.

 

[SR 71 Blackbird]

DRDO Scientists do not work hard because they are paid measly reimbursement.

 

[duhastmish]

I hope you are right but since no project is being given to them how can they compete. They are also happy because they will get offset but this won't help us. FICV is a nice project. We need more projects like this to support our defense companies. Helicopter projects can be given to Mahindra or Tata as both are working in this field, why should HAL gets all the benefit. Well at-least govt. should let them compete.

brother you are absolutly right - but there are too many skeleton in closet, they dont want the private firm to enter.

tata and mahindra are trying their best, but these hal and drdo guys know their factories will be shut down, their easy source of income will be gone. the whole drdo and hal bullcrap will be out in public.

this will be the best thing that could happen to defense sector of india if drdo and hal - become a little professional even if at the cost of national shame that how these organization were corrupt, before india decided to reform.