Hajj stampede beyond human control, 'destiny is inevitable', says top Saudi cleric

[KTOOOOM]

it does matter 717 families have just lost a loved one. and your saying does it matter? shame on you. f**king Scrooge

hi retarded boy read before posting.
i said IT DOES MATTER gey some idiot

 

[Saif al-Arab]

I am talking from the point of view how vatican city is a country within a country Italy.
Where Italy provides the defense related support, still Italy has no role in regard the head of state and administration.
Similarly if Mecca and Medina can be carved out as a special land, which will have its own administration which doesnt have to deal with any political or regional biasness. Which is supported by OIC and initially managed by OIC, which later on builds up its own self management system which is externally supported by OIC and is based on commonly agreed principles of working.

Well for sure Saudis are not going to give it away unless rest of OIC comes up with some grand plan.

Give it a rest kid. Makkah and Madinah are ancient Hijazi cities inhabited by 5 million locals who are part of a sovereign nation (KSA) which is the 12th biggest country on the planet and one of the most wealthy ones. They have no wish to be ruled by foreigners.

Resources are no problem nor management. You don't know what you are blabbering about.

No such plan will ever occur. Allah (swt) gave this responsibility to us and we have held it for 1400 years in a row. Since over 4000 years ago if we recall Prophet Ibrahim (as) and what we celebrate right now (Eid al-Adha).

Please worry about Indian affairs. Or better speak for foreigners carving out Indian land.

There is already extensive international cooperation and if more is needed for the benefit of the pilgrims nobody will object to that but when you propose plans of taking our ancient lands from us you will be meet with an appropriate reaction.

@vsdoc

You seem like an enlightened person. Cheers.

 

[I M Sikander]

Typical justification by a saudi gov employed cleric.
What else you expect from these paid clerics.

By the way, when we would we see any member of saudi royal family get this "Saadat" to die during hajj stampede.

 

[Madali]

If one would want to compare, then Jersualem would be the correct comparison geographically.

I understand there is a similar hill there as well?

Yeah, but again, Christians aren't obligated to visit Jersualem either.

To have an international organization overseeing Hajj is ideal, and would create so much unity among muslims. But in no way it is doable in today's world. For now, something like an organization committee would be like, "too many cooks spoil the broth" (or the Iranian version which is, when there are two cooks, the soup becomes either salty or bland)

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Regarding what the Grand Mufti said. What he means is not that security is not important or should not constantly be improved (KSA would not have spent billions of dollars over the years for that reason nor would most pilgrims from all over the world, including numerous users on PDF who performed Hajj before, be praising the facilities if that was not the case) but that you cannot prevent every catastrophe or tragedy from happening just like you cannot escape death.

If that was the case we would see no catastrophes/tragedies/faults anywhere but we see that every minute across the world.

FACT of the matter is that nobody knows what occurred yet with 100% certainty so the blame game that people have begun is hilarious.

It only takes an old Haji on a wheelchair to fall and take other elders with him to cause a stampede despite the facilities being secure enough. Who is to blame for that then?

There can not be 3 million security officials and volunteers (1 for each pilgrim) and even if there were as many (totally unrealistic and counterproductive) they are not puppeteers.

Hajj is nothing like any other pilgrimage in the world. The sheer numbers, all the rituals (often tiring), the distances you need to cover, weather, geography at hand etc.

There have been no major incidents for 9 years in a row during a pilgrimage where 2-3 millions are gathered excluding the millions that cities like Makkah and Madinah already host.

This tragedy will be thoroughly investigated without a doubt and necessary conclusions will be taken.

 

[vsdoc]

@vsdoc

You seem like an enlightened person. Cheers.

Thanks bro.

Though in all honesty, probably not as enlightened as you give me credit for.

Its just that I belong to an ancient faith, and like some ancient faiths, we believe in the strong connect between divinity, faith and bloodlines.

I know its different for later faiths like Christianity and Islam, which cross over bloodlines, and are global faiths.

Again, not to inflame or ruffle any feathers, but to an old faith, Islam would be seen as an Arab faith.From the Arab lands. Of and for the Arab people.

Your Prophet was an Arab, from among you, and he brought you enlightenment.

The same for the Christians.

The same for the Jews before them.

Cheers, Doc

 

[I M Sikander]

Allah (swt) gave this responsibility to us and we have held it for 1400 years in a row. Since over 4000 years ago if we recall Prophet Ibrahim (as) and what we celebrate right now (Eid al-Adha).

.

Allah hasnt given any such authority to the dictatorial regeime of Ale Saud.

It is actually the arab people and their tribes who had been serving the pilgrims for decades.


Saudi gov. Has shown criminal negligence in managing the hajj operations, and the pilgtims and their families have every right to question this regime.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Thanks bro.

Though in all honesty, probably not as enlightened as you give me credit for.

Its just that I belong to an ancient faith, and like some ancient faiths, we believe in the strong connect between divinity, faith and bloodlines.

I know its different for later faiths like Christianity and Islam, which cross over bloodlines, and are global faiths.

Again, not to inflame or ruffle any feathers, but to an old faith, Islam would be seen as an Arab faith.From the Arab lands. Of and for the Arab people.

Your Prophet was an Arab, from among you, and he brought you enlightenment.

The same for the Christians.

The same for the Jews before them.

Cheers, Doc

Well, I was more referring to your posts in this thread that are based upon logic and not ignorance/hatred.

Well, the 3 Abrahamic (Semitic) religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are closely connected and were revealed to a related and neighboring people (Jews and Arabs) but the religions were never meant only for the locals hence they became global religions that are followed by almost 60% of the World's population today.

Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People from all backgrounds, nations, ethnic groups found those religions fitting for them and the (especially) Christians and Muslims encouraged others to convert. So they were never "closed off" religions so to speak and always emphasized global teachings for all humanity. Even Judaism where conversion can occur.

I am not so familiar with the Dharmic faiths and their philosophies but from what I know they are open to conversion for non-natives of South Asia too. It's just that South Asian people did not really have any global empires which helped spread their faiths like we Muslims and the Christians had. If this had happened I am quite sure that your outlook would be more global as well.

Cheers to you as well.

Allah hasnt given any such authority to the dictatorial regeime of Ale Saud.

It is actually the arab people and their tribes who had been serving the pilgrims for decades.


Saudi gov. Has shown criminal negligence in managing the hajj operations, and the pilgtims and their families have every right to question this regime.

I am talking about the people (locals) genius and people are always under 1 ruler and today it is the House of Saud. House of Saud or not nothing in my argumentation changes due to that. I am not interested in your troll posts due to past experience and you were even warned by moderators to slow down on your trolling. I invite you to try and steal our ancient lands. That's all.

@KTOOOOM

Calm down a bit bro and just ignore their fantasies which are completely irrelevant and exactly that. Fantasies. Also no need for insults here despite their highly provoking posts. Be the better and more enligthened party here. I am working on that myself whenever I encounter trolls. Often I fail to and that's my fault.

 

[mike2000 is back]

like we give a shit what you believe.the last stampede was 20 years ago and was caused by Iranians.

Well, if people have issues/problems with the way Saudi Arabia runs its internal Affairs then don't go there. Problem solved.D

 

[Jaanbaz]

Sorry to say, but the way commercialization has taken place next to the holy monument it beats the whole purpose of Hajj and kind of feeling that it should generate.

Well that was also the reason why the Pagan Arabs were so against Prophet Muhammad(saw)'s message, remember the Kaaba was an important site for Arabs. Every year they gathered together to pray to the idols placed inside, Islamic teachings threatened Pagan Arab's hold on Mecca and the economic prosperity.

Its all about money.

PS. Ignore the Arab troll, the Sauds controlled nothing but deserts. They have nothing to do with Mecca or Medina. They are a different tribe all together from the actual Hashemites.

Hashemites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[vsdoc]

Well, I was more referring to your posts in this thread that are based upon logic and not ignorance/hatred.

Well, the 3 Abrahamic (Semitic) religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are closely connected and were revealed to a related and neighboring people (Jews and Arabs) but the religions were never meant only for the locals hence they became global religions that are followed by almost 60% of the World's populations.

Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

People from all backgrounds, nations, ethnic groups found those religions fitting for them and the (especially) Christians and Muslims encouraged others to convert. So they were never "closed off" religions so to speak and always emphasized global teachings for all humanity. Even Judaism where conversion can occur.

I am not so familiar with the Dharmic faith and their philosophies but from what I know they are open to conversion for non-natives of South Asia. It's just that South Asian people did not really have any global empires who helped spread their faiths like we Muslims and the Christians had. If this had happened I am quite sure that your outlook would be more global as well.

Cheers to you as well.

Dharmic people did at one time colonize most of South East Asia. With the spread of Hinduism to those people.

Similarly Dharmic faiths like Buddhism are still practiced by a large percentage of Asian people.

Buddhism and Hidusim combined as per the 2012 global religious survey account for 22% of humanity, behind Islam at 23% and Chrisitanity at 31%.

But you are right. For most of history, the Indian civilization hardly ventured out for conquests.

Regardless of non-indigenous people who adopt a faith via conversion, ancient theologies believe in the concept of blood, faith and soil.

Insofar as that is involved, for faiths which did not grow out of a Prophet bringing enlightenment (Zarathushtra, Mahavir, Gautam Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Guru Gobind Singh) like Hinduism or for ancient Prophet spread faiths as well, the message was divinely ordained for the people. For the blood and the soil where it was birthed.

Seen against that background, the Abrahamic faiths are also seen as a single continuum for a single people. The Jews and the Arabs, as correctly mentioned by you.

Yes they spread. But the spread was far beyond the life and times of the Prophets. Blood not directly touched by them.

Hope that explains.

P.S. I'm not a dharmic, and neither were my people originally South Asian.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Well that was also the reason why the Pagan Arabs were so against Prophet Muhammad(saw)'s message, remember the Kaaba was an important site for Arabs. Every year they gathered together to pray to the idols placed inside, Islamic teachings threatened Pagan Arab's hold on Mecca and the economic prosperity.

Its all about money.

PS. Ignore the Arab troll, the Sauds controlled nothing but deserts. They have nothing to do with Mecca or Medina. They are a different tribe all together from the actual Hashemites.

Hashemites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here comes the ignorant anti-Arab Qadiani troll. Makkah and the Kaaba have been a pilgrimage site since the time of Prophet Ibrahim (as) over 4000 years ago.

The people of Makkah (not all moreover) were the first followers of monotheism in the world and Semitic paganism in pre-Islamic Arabia and the Arab world was followed from Yemen to Egypt to Syria.

In Pre-Islamic Arabia there were large numbers of Hanfis (monotheists who had followed the example of Prophet Ibrahim (as) for 2800 straight years), Christians, Jews and even Zoroastrians in Eastern Arabia.

The House of Saud controlled most of the Arabian Peninsula. Including all the numerous mountain regions, mountain ranges, all the 1000's km of coastline, 1000's of valleys, wadis, towns, villages, cities, steppes, 100's of islands, volcanic areas and deserts.

EVERY Arab on the Arabian Peninsula HAS EVERYTHING to do with Makkah and Madinah. Arabians don't look at the Arabian Peninsula as a foreign land but their own.

I am a Hijazi Hashemite so thank you for highlighting my family. The fact that Makkah and Madinah was under our control/guidance from 1201 until 1925 does not mean that no other Arabian family whether Hijazi or not had any right to control or consider this land as their own. I am not from the Eastern Province, Southern KSA, Northern KSA or Najd or Oman for instance but I consider all of that land as Arabian/Arab land. Belonging to us, the natives of the Arabian Peninsula.

The best thing that happened for large areas of Arabia (Hijaz, Najd, Eastern Arabia, Northern and Southern KSA) was for it to unite. We pray to Allah (swt) every day for the entire Arabian Peninsula to be united like during the time of the rightly guided Rashidun Caliphate and the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) regardless of who rules.

I am personally no fan of much of the Muslim rulers, including Arab of current, but one thing are rulers a completely other thing is country (land, soil, home soil) and people.

Don't ever speak in our name. Got that anti-Arab troll? You don't see Arabs speaking in your name or calling for Pakistan to be divided into 10 pieces or who should rule who and how. Have some shame.

We have problems and challenges but those are supposed to be solved by locals like in every other country. We don't need "advice" from foreign people who hate us for simply being Arab or because we are from a certain country in the Arab world. KSA in this case.

If you don't understand that you will never understand much to begin with.

Consider this post as a reply to all your other nonsense posts about Arabs/KSA that I have ignored. And lastly I have nothing against you as a person as I don't know you so don't take this personally but I am sure that you would have reacted no differently if foreigners were writing nonsense about your country, people etc. The reason why I have used Qadiani is due to your use of "Wahhabi" forgetting that all sects of Islam originate in KSA and that KSA is home to all Muslim sects indigenously as one of the few nations on the planet. Nor am I a Sunni Muslim Hanbali which you people call "Wahhabis".

 

[KTOOOOM]

Well that was also the reason why the Pagan Arabs were so against Prophet Muhammad(saw)'s message, remember the Kaaba was an important site for Arabs. Every year they gathered together to pray to the idols placed inside, Islamic teachings threatened Pagan Arab's hold on Mecca and the economic prosperity.

Its all about money.

PS. Ignore the Arab troll, the Sauds controlled nothing but deserts. They have nothing to do with Mecca or Medina. They are a different tribe all together from the actual Hashemites.

Hashemites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

lol read before embarrassing yourself again.

Here comes the ignorant anti-Arab Qadiani troll. Makkah and the Kaaba have been a pilgrimage site since the time of Prophet Ibrahim (as) over 4000 years ago.

The people of Makkah (not all moreover) were the first followers of monotheism in the world and Semitic paganism in pre-Islamic Arabia and the Arab world was followed from Yemen to Egypt to Syria.

In Pre-Islamic Arabia there were large numbers of Hanfis (monotheists who had followed the example of Prophet Ibrahim (as) for 2800 straight years), Christians, Jews and even Zoroastrians in Eastern Arabia.

The House of Saud controlled most of the Arabian Peninsula. Including all the numerous mountain regions, mountain ranges, all the 1000's km of coastline, 1000's of valleys, wadis, towns, villages, cities, steppes, 100's of islands, volcanic areas and deserts.

EVERY Arab on the Arabian Peninsula HAS EVERYTHING to do with Makkah and Madinah. Arabians don't look at the Arabian Peninsula as a foreign land but their own.

I am a Hijazi Hashemite so thank you for highlighting my family. The fact that Makkah and Madinah was under our control/guidance from 1201 until 1925 does not mean that no other Arabian family whether Hijazi or not had any right to control or consider this land as their own. I am not from the Eastern Province, Southern KSA, Northern KSA or Najd or Oman for instance but I consider all of that land as Arabian/Arab land. Belonging to us, the natives of the Arabian Peninsula.

The best thing that happened for large areas of Arabia (Hijaz, Najd, Eastern Arabia, Northern and Southern KSA) was for it to unite. We pray to Allah (swt) every day for the entire Arabian Peninsula to be united like during the time of the rightly guided Rashidun Caliphate and the time of Prophet Muhammad (saws) regardless of who rules.

Don't ever speak in our name. Got that anti-Arab troll?

don't mind the idiots it is a carnival of stupid here.

 

[Saif al-Arab]

Dharmic people did at one time colonize most of South East Asia. With the spread of Hinduism to those people.

Similarly Dharmic faiths like Buddhism are still practiced by a large percentage of Asian people.

Buddhism and Hidusim combined as per the 2012 global religious survey account for 22% of humanity, behind Islam at 23% and Chrisitanity at 31%.

But you are right. For most of history, the Indian civilization hardly ventured out for conquests.

Regardless of non-indigenous people who adopt a faith via conversion, ancient theologies believe in the concept of blood, faith and soil.

Insofar as that is involved, for faiths which did not grow out of a Prophet bringing enlightenment (Zarathushtra, Mahavir, Gautam Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Guru Gobind Singh) like Hinduism or for ancient Prophet spread faiths as well, the message was divinely ordained for the people. For the blood and the soil where it was birthed.

Seen against that background, the Abrahamic faiths are also seen as a single continuum for a single people. The Jews and the Arabs, as correctly mentioned by you.

Yes they spread. But the spread was far beyond the life and times of the Prophets. Blood not directly touched by them.

Hope that explains.

P.S. I'm not a dharmic, and neither were my people originally South Asian.

Cheers, Doc

As I understand it the Dharmic religions prevalent in India/South Asia (Hinduism, Janism, Sikhism) are only mostly confined to India excluding the Indian diaspora, old as new. Buddhism is probably the only Dharmic religion which spread outside of its original homeland (Northern South Asia) to influence the "Chinese Sphere of influence" (East Asia basically).

On the other hand the Abrahamic/Semitic religions can be found in every single country on the planet (in by far most of the world's 200 or so countries they form the vast majority) and on all continents.

I suppose that you are one of the 40.000 or so Zoroastrians in India, am I right? In your case, from what I have heard, conversion of non-natives is not allowed hence you have a different outlook. But like any religion before Zoroastrianism must have spread way outside of the town, city, village, province or land it originated from initially thus also converting "outsiders".

In any case although you can say that there is some kind of seniority in Judaism, Islam and Christianity based on who became the first adherents and where it happened it's only bound in historical facts at most as all adherents of those 3 religions regardless of origin are treated equally in the scriptures hence the global emphasis. To guide ALL of humanity and not only a specific people or region.

I am of the opinion that people can believe what they want to believe as long as they are not hurting others. The reason why the study of religion is interesting (not that I am a student of religion or have any exceptional knowledge about the main religions let alone all of them) is because it's closely tied to history which I guess most of us find interesting in some way or another. When I say religion here I am also referring to the extinct religions or those whom we have few if any written records about.

lol read before embarrassing yourself again.


don't mind the idiots it is a carnival of stupid here.

God bless the trolls here for the comedy they give us.

lol

 

[Ceylal]

Since we can't show picture of the senseless massacre caused by the MOD saudi caravan, accompagened by 300 bodygards, a corps of SF, police...the dead bodies were stacked like a watermelon stall..Just picture each watermelon , a dead body!