Gunmen Kill Dozens in Terror Attack at Kenyan Mall

[Gandhi G in da house]

It's sad that barely any Pakistanis are participating in these threads. Not even a RIP.

 

[janon]

You should stick to your dharmic religion. You clearly don't know anything about abrahamic religions. There is a reason I put an s at the end of religion. They are all seperate religions . But they are very similar because we all have the same prophets and believe in the one true God. As far as war is concerned, there was a study that showed religion was only the cause of less than 5%. I'll post a link if I find the source.

You don't know me, and you don't know what religion I follow or don't follow, so stop your presumptuous personal remarks.

You put an 's' at the end of religions, but did not put an 's' at the end of book - and that was the whole point of my post.

And by the way, I happen to have a far deeper understanding of religions, which is rather obvious from your trite, stock lines about the "one true god" (trademarked, I suppose).

 

[forcetrip]

Madness. RIP to all the fallen and quick recovery to all the injured. Still waiting for a fatwa for the perpetrators of all these cowardly suicide attacks and bombings to be declared Non-Muslim or the favored word of "Kaffir". Till that time the world will continue to call it as they see it. Islam done it.

 

[janon]

I would like to comment on your post if I may


In short, you can only think in the categories your culture allows you to think of - including the adherence to an A or B faith -

There is no such thing as religion of peace, Islam undoubtedly is included. I understand what you were trying to get at - I do agree with you to some extent - but you may need to define what terrorism is, what motivates these individuals to commit a heinous act like this.

Firstly, Terrorism, by definition, is the use of violence against civilians to achieve political objectives. The minute you define terrorism is the minute whereby you could hold the rod from the middle.

Secondly, Motiviations may vary from one religion to another, in this case the newly-merged to Al-Qaida i.e The Shabab of Somalia lost control of an area which they used to administer prior to the deployment of the Afriacn Union troops in their own stronghold.

As the old saying goes the end justifies the mean.

Yes, all that is true. However, it may be noticed that in this day and age, islam is the only religion used to justify attacks on civilians, sometimes as an end in itself. Yes, there can be terrorism (as you defined it) without any religious affiliation. LTTE was not motivated by islam. But it is a fact, no matter how much some muslims (I don't mean you) may try to pretend otherwise, that no other religion commands so many people willing to die for what they consider a religious duty.

The reason islam is associated with terrorism today is precisely because of that - yes, many terror attacks have political goals, but it is an incontrovertible fact that many of the foot soldiers are motivated by the hope of martyrdom and paradise. In other words, it is not merely a political or military duty for them, BUT A RELIGIOUS ONE AS WELL.

 

[BloodyPak96]

You don't know me, and you don't know what religion I follow or don't follow, so stop your presumptuous personal remarks.

You put an 's' at the end of religions, but did not put an 's' at the end of book - and that was the whole point of my post.

And by the way, I happen to have a far deeper understanding of religions, which is rather obvious from your trite, stock lines about the "one true god" (trademarked, I suppose).

Lol ok. You posting that religions cause wars is exactly all I need to know about you understanding religion. My bad, not putting the s in the end of books was a typo.

 

[flamer84]

It's sad that barely any Pakistanis are participating in these threads. Not even a RIP.

The kaffirs deserve it.

 

[janon]

Madness. RIP to all the fallen and quick recovery to all the injured. Still waiting for a fatwa for the perpetrators of all these cowardly suicide attacks and bombings to be declared Non-Muslim or the favored word of "Kaffir". Till that time the world will continue to call it as they see it. Islam done it.

That is a little offensive to non muslims, don't you think? That when a muslim does a terror attack, suddenly he is described as a non muslim, as if non muslims are more predisposed to such things?

I know where you are coming from, but I think you may not have thought that point through. Whenever a terror attack by muslims or some violence by hindus occur, the Indian media keeps peaching that 'terrorists have no religion' - a stock cliché repeated by bird brained TV news anchors and journalists. And my immediate reaction is that that is rather insulting to people who actually don't have religions, and who have historically been far more peaceful that muslims or hindus (in general).

Lol ok. You posting that religions cause wars is exactly all I need to know about you understanding religion. My bad, not putting the s in the end of books was a typo.

I did not make such a statement. At least, not that religions are the only cause. Sorry, but my positions are more nuanced, and not very black and white. It may be difficult for people accustomed to binary positions to understand.

An if saying books in the singular was a typo, that negates your first point of the "no true Scotsman" not being applicable - as I explained in the response to that.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

But they are very similar because we all have the same prophets and believe in the one true God.

Who is the "one true God"?

 

[janon]

Who is the "one true God"?

It is a trademarked secret of the "true believers". The polytheists and false god worshippers and unbelievers will all be tortured forever and forever in the afterlife by the "one true god", while the "true believers" watch and laugh from paradise.

Ancient tribal feelings of "my tribe right others wrong", that are still believed and followed by the gullible. These were the stories that every man, woman and child found comfort in, in the ignoble days of old. That they have discovered the "one real space daddy", while the other idiots haven't, and will be tortured for it. Unfortunately, it is a tragedy of human nature that such childish worldviews can give meaning and purpose to shallow people's otherwise difficult lives.

Human, all too human.

 

[sree45]

Who is the "one true God"?

God knows..

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It is a trademarked secret of the "true believers". The polytheists and false god worshippers and unbelievers will all be tortured forever and forever in the afterlife by the "one true god", while the "true believers" watch and laugh from paradise.

Ancient tribal feelings of "my tribe right others wrong", that are still believed and followed by the gullible. These were the stories that every man, woman and child found comfort in, in the ignoble days of old. That they have discovered the "one real space daddy", while the other idiots haven't, and will be tortured for it. Unfortunately, it is a tragedy of human nature that such childish worldviews can give meaning and purpose to shallow people's otherwise difficult lives.

Human, all too human.

That's why I'm an Atheist.

My family is traditionally polytheist though, and worship a large variety of Chinese Gods/Deities along with many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

 

[janon]

That's why I'm an Atheist.

My family is traditionally polytheist though, and worship a large variety of Chinese Gods/Deities along with many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

Which religion does your family follow?

Now many followers of the "one true god" (TM) will believe that your family deserves to be tortured for eternity, for worshipping false gods. They will believe it even though they have never met your family members personally. That belief seems as natural and just to them as it seems unnatural and unjust to us. And from believing that they deserve to be tortured eternally, to believing that killing them for a political purpose is fine, is not a rather large leap, if you think about it.

See, here is the thing. Most muslims and quite a few Christians believe (as their holy books tell them) that unbelievers and kafirs will be tortured for eternity, and that they deserve it. So do you think that for them it is that immoral to kill those kafirs and polytheists? After all, according to tem, they deserve a much worse fate than death.

Much as religious people may try to play the "No true Scotsman" card, they cannot escape the fact, that such religious beliefs do contribute to diminished sensitivity about killing kafir/heretic civilians. Chrisitans have mostly given up such beliefs, about all non-true-believers ending up in hell. Only the fundamentalists believe that these days. But in the Islamic world, the majority still believes it.

So yes, it is a fact, however unpleasant it sounds, that many muslims and some Christians will and do believe that your family members will be tortured for eternity after death.

Anyway, to repeat my question, what is the religious background of your family?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Which religion does your family follow?

Now many followers of the "one true god" (TM) will believe that your family deserves to be tortured for eternity, for worshipping false gods. They will believe it even though they have never met your family members personally. That belief seems as natural and just to them as it seems unnatural and unjust to us. And from believing that they deserve to be tortured eternally, to believing that killing them for a political purpose is fine, is not a rather large leap, if you think about it.

See, here is the thing. Most muslims and quite a few Christians believe (as their holy books tell them) that unbelievers and kafirs will be tortured for eternity, and that they deserve it. So do you think that for them it is that immoral to kill those kafirs and polytheists? After all, according to tem, they deserve a much worse fate than death.

Much as religious people may try to play the "No true Scotsman" card, they cannot escape the fact, that such religious beliefs do contribute to diminished sensitivity about killing kafir/heretic civilians. Chrisitans have mostly given up such beliefs, about all non-true-believers ending up in hell. Only the fundamentalists believe that these days. But in the Islamic world, the majority still believes it.

So yes, it is a fact, however unpleasant it sounds, that many muslims and some Christians will and do believe that your family members will be tortured for eternity after death.

Anyway, to repeat my question, what is the religious background of your family?

My family call themselves "Chinese Buddhists", but in practice they follow something more akin to Chinese folk religion, which incorporates elements of Buddhism (worship of Buddha and Guanyin), the worship of Chinese Taoist deities, as well as Ancestor Worship.

It's basically a mix of Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism.

It is very much polytheistic in nature, with very large numbers of Gods/Deities, and plenty of idols of course.

And yes, I know that Christians think that all polytheists and idol worshippers will go to Hell for all eternity. It's the First and Second commandments: You shall have no other God before me, you shall not worship carved idols and images.

As for Hell, the Bible is very specific about that as well. And yes I have read the Bible, and Revelations is my favorite chapter (I like to read anything on the topic of religious mythology).

 

[forcetrip]

That is a little offensive to non muslims, don't you think? That when a muslim does a terror attack, suddenly he is described as a non muslim, as if non muslims are more predisposed to such things?

I know where you are coming from, but I think you may not have thought that point through. Whenever a terror attack by muslims or some violence by hindus occur, the Indian media keeps peaching that 'terrorists have no religion' - a stock cliché repeated by bird brained TV news anchors and journalists. And my immediate reaction is that that is rather insulting to people who actually don't have religions, and who have historically been far more peaceful that muslims or hindus (in general).

Hmmm.. You have blown this into something that wasn't implied, but allow me to explain what I meant for your better judgement.

Religion over the years have changed drastically. The first documented religions in the world did not entail violence because the need for it was far less and humans then did not realize the power of a mindless army performing. As time went on it got to the point that violence and religion became one because of the constant use for the call to arms to fight for their respective gods. This further escalated after the birth of chirstianity to this day. The crusades were the darkest period in religious history when church and mosque's openly authorizing god's will to fight for land. Obviously the background stories have to be made edible for the masses in order to continue a legacy to forward their children. A couple of generations down those stories become imprinted and would take another couple of generations to undo.

Now back to your pointing out that calling them non muslims would be something offensive to non muslims as they would get lumped in with terrorists who being muslims are causing mayhem in the name of islam. I have no idea how you made that connection with yourself or with any follower of any other religion or lack of one. In christianity there is a clear method of excommunication that exists which is applied to someone who gets kicked out of church. That needs to be applied in the practical sense with suicide bombers of ANY religion. Islam excommunicates anyone that commits suicide, and its hell going through getting burial services for such individuals. Same with christianity. This is for a person who takes his own life and harms no other. Now we have individuals calling a suicide war against CIVILIANS and there is no public voice to BRAND them out of the fold of the religion they follow?

The particular post was for muslims who hate suicide bombers being called Kafir or non muslims just because they were under the influence of some wrong preacher, their take on this is that till their death they believed in god and his prophet and in their mind were performing duties towards their god. I consider anyone that thinks that they are still muslim after commiting this crime because of any technicality as a non muslim as well. This goes for any chiristian, hindu or atheist who thinks committing suicide attacks on a civilian population agreeable out of their respective religions as well.

 

[Pakistani E]

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.

May Allah Ta'ala Bless all the innocent people martyred in this attack by the crazy lunatic mullahs.

May Allah Ta'ala destroy all the fitnah producing mullahs who use Islam to further their political ambitions.

May Allah Ta'ala destroy Al shabab/Alqaeda/lashkerejhangvi/Taliban and any other self declared champion of Islam, they do nothing but shame us muslims with their vile acts.

Ameen sum amen.