Gujarat riots not an issue that should keep Modi from becoming PM: Narayana Murthy

[Abhishek_]

Cannot agree with Narayan Murthy Sir on this one.
If economic progress alone is the yardstick for measuring a Leader's standing, then Hitler and Churchill would see their positions getting reversed! But that's not how leaders are judged.

This is perhaps the first General Election in India where neither the Incumbent Govt coalition nor the Opposition coalition have fielded a worthy candidate for PMship(assuming RaGa will be pitted against NaMo).

I'm more interested in putting my point across than worry about the technicalities of 'losing' a debate. As long as the average reader got the gist of what I wanted to express, it's good enough for me. You may collect all the trophies that PDF has lined up for 'winning' arguments here.

the arguments put forth hold little water. as an indian citizen I feel insulted that you think we will allow Namo or any one else to wash away the constitution and our democratic ideals as the germans did to allow hitler to do as he pleased.
Namo is currently the best of the lot, but he would be wildly foolish to imagine the civil society would be a push over even if he has an absolute majority in the parliament.

Namo will be given a job by the citizens to improve the current system, if and when he falls short of the expectations (like manmohan), he will be promptly replaced as well.

 

[Indischer]

Well thank you. I am sure people do not want a repeat of Manmohan 2.0

Indian public is smarter than that. It would not matter if they put up Montek singh ahluwalia or Pappu as PM candidate.



The only point point that gets across by invoking Godwin's law is that you have NO sound rational reason for opposing Modi except pseudo secularism.

Anyone can see that you did not debate on the point I made when I mentioned Churchill & Hitler, but rather chose to delve into the nitty-gritties/technicalities on the art of debating.

 

[Spring Onion]

When they say over 90% or so members of Indian parliament are having criminal record then why it should be surprising if Modi with Gujarat massacre becomes a PM.

 

[Abhishek_]

When they say over 90% or so members of Indian parliament are having criminal record then why it should be surprising if Modi with Gujarat massacre becomes a PM.

of course, it takes a gang-leader to control a gang. no surprises there

 

[adwityagrata]

Anyone can see that you did not debate on the point I made when I mentioned Churchill & Hitler, but rather chose to delve into the nitty-gritties/technicalities on the art of debating.

There is nothing left to discuss once's Godwin's law is invoked.

I could have used another term to describe your points when you raised Churchill & Hitler. Its Red Herring, or a Logical fallacy in other words.

of course, it takes a gang-leader to control a gang. no surprises there

Kallu Mama for PM

 

[janon]

The problem this time around is that vacillation of Congress has resulted in everyone assuming that the probable PM candidate is going to be RaGa. Their plan may have been to keep this going till the Assembly Elections we just had, just to gauge his popularity. I guess only now is the Congress fully prepared to accept that RaGa is a lost cause as a mast-head for them.

Nobody fielded by the Congress/UPA can match the momentum built by NaMo going into the elections. While Nandan Nilekani is a respected person, he's as raw as they come in Politics and everyone can see him becoming another puppet like MMS. No other leader of repute may actually risk it against NaMo this time around.

That's one possibility, that they were testing the waters with RG to judge his popularity. Another idea is that they have known for some time that RG doesn't stand a chance against NaMo, so they are simply avoiding a commitment at this stage, to bring in a "surprise" candidate just before elections. Then they can portray it as RG sacrificing his own ambitions to let a respected person have a go. Just like Sonia's famous "sacrifice" in 2004. He will then say something along the lines of "I have never been interested in power, my only ambition was to be a humble worker for the congress party" and so on. It is a typical gambit from politicians when they know that running for office will make them look ridiculous, and not running can be portrayed as some heroic sacrifice.

@adwityagrata : You might want to stop looking at every thread as a debate or argument, and instead think of it as a discussion, an exchannge of ideas. I tried to indicate this sarcastically in that LCA thread when you belligerently kept arguing about DRDO, and finally Isaid "you win". I thought you would get the message, that most of us do not think about winning arguments, but come here to discuss.

 

[Dillinger]

As things stand at the moment Modi had not been proven guilty of aiding or abetting the Gujarat riots ergo the accusations which have been leveled against him (true or false) cannot be held to be a feasible or acceptable reason to disqualify him from being a candidate for the Prime-ministerial office. Now if only people would realize that Modi can only bring about relatively better results (a boon in itself under the prevailing circumstances) but he is no panacea, there is no miracle man who can save the pusillanimous and the weak.

 

[Indischer]

the arguments put forth hold little water. as an indian citizen I feel insulted that you think we will allow Namo or any one else to wash away the constitution and our democratic ideals as the germans did to allow hitler to do as he pleased.
Namo is currently the best of the lot, but he would be wildly foolish to imagine the civil society would be a push over even if he has an absolute majority in the parliament.

Namo will be given a job by the citizens to improve the current system, if and when he falls short of the expectations (like manmohan), he will be promptly replaced as well.

I never said NaMo will install himself as the dictator if given the opportunity to do so. Why did you arrive at such a conclusion mate?

You'll be surprised to learn that the Nazis too were democratically elected into power. They orchestrated many events that polarized the German civil society, landing them the majority vote(Beer Hall Putsch, Kristallnacht, promises of return to former glory etc). I find many parallels with them and the way BJP established itself around the early 1990s(babri Masjid demolition).

NaMo has billed himself as the savior and one-stop shop for our economy because post Godhra, development the only plank on which he could hope to sustain his popularity and continue his political career. But fact remains that incidents like the Babri Masjid issue and Godhra issue cannot be just swept under the carpet/forgotten conveniently. NaMo is no different than a Jagdish Tytler, who too roams scot-free in spite of orchestrating the 1984 Delhi riots. As Indians, I feel we deserve administrators who also have a strong moral & ethical fibre, not just good ideas on how to earn more money.

 

[t_for_talli]

When they say over 90% or so members of Indian parliament are having criminal record then why it should be surprising if Modi with Gujarat massacre becomes a PM.

Has is not found guilty by courts (even under congress rule)

 

[adwityagrata]

@adwityagrata : You might want to stop looking at every thread as a debate or argument, and instead think of it as a discussion, an exchannge of ideas. I tried to indicate this sarcastically in that LCA thread when you belligerently kept arguing about DRDO, and finally Isaid "you win". I thought you would get the message, that most of us do not think about winning arguments, but come here to discuss.

For an exchange of ideas to take place there should be facts placed before us. Speculation can then take place based on the evidence provided.

There is nothing to discuss when someone will come in and claim Modi will be a great leader when Martin's come and invade earth. That too is an 'idea' but not worth wasting my time discussing.

As to an earlier point about LCA, it was you who challenged my assertion that the nay Sayers were cynical and not skeptical. I just countered your points. I too though you got the point about making claims that cannot be backed by facts. Those are not worthy of being 'discussed' (at least in this section of the forum)

 

[Abhishek_]

I never said NaMo will install himself as the dictator if given the opportunity to do so. Why did you arrive at such a conclusion mate?

You'll be surprised to learn that the Nazis too were democratically elected into power. They orchestrated many events that polarized the German civil society, landing them the majority vote(Beer Hall Putsch, Kristallnacht, promises of return to former glory etc). I find many parallels with them and the way BJP established itself around the early 1990s(babri Masjid demolition).

NaMo has billed himself as the savior and one-stop shop for our economy because post Godhra, development the only plank on which he could hope to sustain his popularity and continue his political career. But fact remains that incidents like the Babri Masjid issue and Godhra issue cannot be just swept under the carpet/forgotten conveniently. NaMo is no different than a Jagdish Tytler, who too roams scot-free in spite of orchestrating the 1984 Delhi riots. As Indians, I feel we deserve administrators who also have a strong moral & ethical fibre, not just good ideas on how to earn more money.

^fair points, but I still feel you are giving too little credit to the intelligence of the common voter these. days.
let me put it this way, if the mainstream politicians (including Namo) fail to deliver, phenomenon like AAP will only get stronger.

And since when does the strength of India's social and ethical fiber stands on politicians' shoulders?

have faith in the citizens mate, no two bit politician is capable of doing what you are fearing.

 

[janon]

For an exchange of ideas to take place there should be facts placed before us. Speculation can then take place based on the evidence provided.

There is nothing to discuss when someone will come in and claim Modi will be a great leader when Martin's come and invade earth. That too is an 'idea' but not worth wasting my time discussing.

As to an earlier point about LCA, it was you who challenged my assertion that the nay Sayers were cynical and not skeptical. I just countered your points. I too though you got the point about making claims that cannot be backed by facts. Those are not worthy of being 'discussed' (at least in this section of the forum)

So if all this is unworthy of your time, why bother replying? I find it amusing that you claim that your time is so important as not to be wasted on people like us, and you respond and continue to argue pointlessly for an eternity. That behaviour negates your assertion that you dont find our ideas worthy of a response, when you respond indefinitely to them.

Anyway I for one am not interested in another pointless back and forth.

 

[adwityagrata]

.... Now if only people would realize that Modi can only bring about relatively better results (a boon in itself under the prevailing circumstances) but he is no panacea, there is not miracle man who can save the pusillanimous and the weak.

Actually people do realize that Modi brings tremendous Inspirational Leadership that has the power to transform society and the Nation.

Modi can certainly inspire the pusillanimous and the weak to gather courage and make a stand and fight for a common goal. That is what Leadership is all about, is it not ?

Modi is a Leader in the truest sense of the word.......and people see him for what he is. That is why he is such an inspirational figure.

So if all this is unworthy of your time, why bother replying? I find it amusing that you claim that your time is so important as not to be wasted on people like us, and you respond and continue to argue pointlessly for an eternity. That behaviour negates your assertion that you dont find our ideas worthy of a response, when you respond indefinitely to them.

Anyway I for one am not interested in another pointless back and forth.

Vague assertions and claims are not worth my time discussing. But faulty behavior can certainly be pointed out and corrected to improve the quality of the forum.

The quality of certain posts do not warrant a reply, but the fact that they are Indians makes me give them a second chance to become a better person.

If you observe I do not waste such time with pakistani's and chinese on this forum.

 

[Indischer]

There is nothing left to discuss once's Godwin's law is invoked.

I could have used another term to describe your points when you raised Churchill & Hitler. Its Red Herring, or a Logical fallacy in other words.

LOL. Another reason for why a debate was 'wrong'. Hope you understand that Hitler and Churchill are not fictional Pokemon dolls , but men with a certain history and character who can be drawn as archetypal Leaders for comparison. If it's such a logical fallacy as you say and below your supreme debating skills , you can stay out of this.

 

[adwityagrata]

LOL. Another reason for why a debate was 'wrong'. Hope you understand that Hitler and Churchill are not fictional Pokemon dolls , but men with a certain history and character who can be drawn as archetypal Leaders for comparison. If it's such a logical fallacy as you say and below your supreme debating skills , you can stay out of this.

LOL. sure.

Why not 'discuss' Gandhi and Modi and the similarities between the two ?