Group Captain Abhinandan V to get Vir Chakra from President for the false claim of shooting down F-16 on 27 Feb

[ummarz]

Not to troll you. I am an Indian. I understand India much much better, and hence I believe Indian version.

However, I do believe PAF came out very well on that morning. I.e. PAF was better than IAF on that morning.

PS: IAF did not have to use an imaginary kill to "brag". We know that PAF was better on that morning.


It is not a guess, per the then IAF chief. That interview is widely available in youtube. Please watch it.

Also, immediately after that day, there were beautiful and knowledgeable post by a very knowledgeable Indian. He since vanished, and I can't recall his name. Most old timers here must have read those posts (and conveniently ignored them) where he informed about possible SAM kill of f-16, lot before paf came up with pics of those A2A missiles almost intact to mig-21.

Also, please do your own research. There is no confirmation from US officials.

Pakistanis - not trolling you. Please ignore this post, as we debated all these endlessly.

You are choosing to believe liars:

You are choosing to believe the same government officials that lied about many other aspects of the incident.
The same government that lied about the strikes the day before. Claiming to have killed a very large number of terrorists. The reality was that not one person was killed because they missed the targets altogether.
The same government lied and said that no IAF plane was shot down after Pak claimed to have shot two jets down. Which prompted Pak to put Abhi on video. They kept denying until we showed him on TV. Is that an honest government?
Then lets not forget that the same government decided to attack Pakistan "launch pads" lol, which even if they existed had no role to play in the pulwama attack. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri boy who was from Indian controlled portion.

Indian claim on weak legs:

The IAF chief claims that, since we have the F-16 track lost on radar, and since only Abhi was in the area, so we are deciding to give him the credit for the kill. That is the definition of a bogus claim. As you can see Abhi never relayed back that he launched a missile (besides, why would he launch a missile when he believes he is still in IOK, why would he attack a jet deep in Pak, does he want to start a war?). We know, he was never told to shoot by the IAF controllers. Instead he was told to turn back, which he didn't do. And lastly IAF has no radar signature of Abhi shooting a missile at anything. And of course the fact that we find all four missiles from his crashed jet proves that he shot nothing. Besides, I bet you that wasn't the only F-16 track lost by Indian radar that day, in that mountain region. Track lost simply means that the radar can't see the jet any longer. In mountain region, easy reason is the jet ducked low behind mountains... everybody knows this, but your government and airforce choose to make a fool out of your civilians.

Pakistani claim of SU-30 heavier than Indian claim:

Compare that to the Pakistani claim of shooting down the SU-30. Which I believe holds more ground. PAF says that one of the F-16s was cleared to shoot the SU-30, a missile was shot, which was tracked on radar. And the missile relayed back proximity activation code (when it exploded near SU-30, either damaging or killing it, up for debate) to the F-16 that had shot it. Then we also have your media mention that an SU-30 has been shot down. This is also when we see your media start to mention F-16 shot as if to balance the scales lol. You compare the two claims, and then choose to back one based solely on the claims attributes, if you are an honest individual you will side with the Pak claim.

No Evidence of F-16 shot down:

There is no evidence of F-16 shot down, neither does it make sense to shoot a plane tens of miles inside Pak and not have its wreckage. You can't hide that, especially not on the Pak side. It may be somewhat easier to do that on IOK though due to the military occupation and curfews you had in IOK, but its not possible in Pak. There is too many people who live there. Then you have US personnel at the bases that operate F-16 in Pak. They would all have to be complicit in hiding it, which is not possible either. All in all, thousands of people, from civilians, to PAF personnel, to US personnel stationed there, to Lockheed Martin in US, to Martin Baker seat company in UK would all have to lie. Thats a massive chain, which just isn't possible. All you need is one local Pakistani who thinks it was Indian jet shot down, and posts pictures of it to spill the beans. Then of course we didn't have any independent satellite imaging teams find any wreckage on the Pak side. Keep in mind that we had independent satellites on site at the claimed Indian strikes. Which showed no damage. India would know where the F-16 went down, they could easily have satellites over that area, pictures taken of the crash site. Which they didn't. Then the FP article where the Pentagon correspondent says that Pentagon officials have counted and found none missing. That should really be all you need.

Your choice:

You can choose to believe the bogus claim over a much more likely claim of SU-30 down, you go ahead. We know that Indian government elections cause them to behave in very abnormal ways, we know that they have given fake awards before. Why would we believe this award to be real this time. Especially not after all the evidence is in front of us.

But no, you guys go ahead, give an award to a guy who crossed the border without permission from his government, got shot down. And even your chief doesn't know if it was him, or a Pak SAM, that made the F-16 track lost on radar, but you go ahead give another bogus award. The real award should go to the mountain, which hid the F-16 radar signature from Indian radar.

 

[Dungeness]

Not to troll you. I am an Indian. I understand India much much better, and hence I believe Indian version.

Of course you'd believe Indian version, like you believe "IA killed 45 PLA in Galwan" or "Superpower India by 2012" or "Super-supercomputer by 2017" or "23 year-old Sikh slodier killed 12 PLA" or "India killed 1300 PLA in Rezang La" or "India killed 400 PLA in Cho La in 1967", etc. "India Lies" are intended to fool nobody but Indians anyway.

You people just enjoy lying to other Indians and enjoy being lied to by other Indians, not much of honesty among you people, from top leaders to keyboard warriors.

 

[jk007]

You are choosing to believe liars:

You are choosing to believe the same government officials that lied about many other aspects of the incident.
The same government that lied about the strikes the day before. Claiming to have killed a very large number of terrorists. The reality was that not one person was killed because they missed the targets altogether.
The same government lied and said that no IAF plane was shot down after Pak claimed to have shot two jets down. Which prompted Pak to put Abhi on video. They kept denying until we showed him on TV. Is that an honest government?
Then lets not forget that the same government decided to attack Pakistan "launch pads" lol, which even if they existed had no role to play in the pulwama attack. Pulwama was done by a Kashmiri boy who was from Indian controlled portion.

Indian claim on weak legs:

The IAF chief claims that, since we have the F-16 track lost on radar, and since only Abhi was in the area, so we are deciding to give him the credit for the kill. That is the definition of a bogus claim. As you can see Abhi never relayed back that he launched a missile (besides, why would he launch a missile when he believes he is still in IOK, why would he attack a jet deep in Pak, does he want to start a war?). We know, he was never told to shoot by the IAF controllers. Instead he was told to turn back, which he didn't do. And lastly IAF has no radar signature of Abhi shooting a missile at anything. And of course the fact that we find all four missiles from his crashed jet proves that he shot nothing. Besides, I bet you that wasn't the only F-16 track lost by Indian radar that day, in that mountain region. Track lost simply means that the radar can't see the jet any longer. In mountain region, easy reason is the jet ducked low behind mountains... everybody knows this, but your government and airforce choose to make a fool out of your civilians.

Pakistani claim of SU-30 heavier than Indian claim:

Compare that to the Pakistani claim of shooting down the SU-30. Which I believe holds more ground. PAF says that one of the F-16s was cleared to shoot the SU-30, a missile was shot, which was tracked on radar. And the missile relayed back proximity activation code (when it exploded near SU-30, either damaging or killing it, up for debate) to the F-16 that had shot it. Then we also have your media mention that an SU-30 has been shot down. This is also when we see your media start to mention F-16 shot as if to balance the scales lol. You compare the two claims, and then choose to back one based solely on the claims attributes, if you are an honest individual you will side with the Pak claim.

No Evidence of F-16 shot down:

There is no evidence of F-16 shot down, neither does it make sense to shoot a plane tens of miles inside Pak and not have its wreckage. You can't hide that, especially not on the Pak side. It may be somewhat easier to do that on IOK though due to the military occupation and curfews you had in IOK, but its not possible in Pak. There is too many people who live there. Then you have US personnel at the bases that operate F-16 in Pak. They would all have to be complicit in hiding it, which is not possible either. All in all, thousands of people, from civilians, to PAF personnel, to US personnel stationed there, to Lockheed Martin in US, to Martin Baker seat company in UK would all have to lie. Thats a massive chain, which just isn't possible. All you need is one local Pakistani who thinks it was Indian jet shot down, and posts pictures of it to spill the beans. Then of course we didn't have any independent satellite imaging teams find any wreckage on the Pak side. Keep in mind that we had independent satellites on site at the claimed Indian strikes. Which showed no damage. India would know where the F-16 went down, they could easily have satellites over that area, pictures taken of the crash site. Which they didn't. Then the FP article where the Pentagon correspondent says that Pentagon officials have counted and found none missing. That should really be all you need.

Your choice:

You can choose to believe the bogus claim over a much more likely claim of SU-30 down, you go ahead. We know that Indian government elections cause them to behave in very abnormal ways, we know that they have given fake awards before. Why would we believe this award to be real this time. Especially not after all the evidence is in front of us.

But no, you guys go ahead, give an award to a guy who crossed the border without permission from his government, got shot down. And even your chief doesn't know if it was him, or a Pak SAM, that made the F-16 track lost on radar, but you go ahead give another bogus award. The real award should go to the mountain, which hid the F-16 radar signature from Indian radar.

Believe it or not, part of me want to believe / wish that PAF shot down not one but two su-30. The reason is - I want IAF to buy lot of Rafale. But that did not happen, and Rafale number is stuck at 36.

One thing is for sure - IAF is done purchasing Russian aircraft.

a) I am very angry the way IAF had so many lacunae that PAF greatly exploited on that day. I was like - what was IAF doing all these years? However, I am very novice to air battles. Maybe, I do not understand everything that happened on that day, and my conclusions about IAF conduct on that day are all wrong.
b) I tried asking experts on PDF about how any other airforce would have conducted when forced with large formation of enemy at a time and place of enemy's choosing. But such experts don't exist / not respond in PDF.
C) I trust the top leadership of India (for ex: Ajit Doval). He is the boss and not a guy who would suffer idiots. So, India is in responsible hands. Not someone sleeping at the wheel.
D) The then IAF chief has openly agreed that IAF has let it's advantage on bvr weapons (range) slip to PAFs hands in the last 15 or so years.


India has taken lot of humiliation (Mumbai attacks; parliament attacks etc) from pak without responding for many many yesrs.

For us Indians, the fact of IAF jets crossing the border is enough to cheer about. It does not matter if the bombs hit the target or not. You , pakistanis, don't realize that and keep arguing if the bombs hit their targets or abhinandan fired etc etc....all such arguments don't matter too much to Indians (atleast to me). What matters is - has IAF crossed the border and released payload? Has Abhinandan crossed the border and try to kill an enemy aircraft?

Abhinandan is a hero of us for that very reason. He is shot on pak territory. He is brave and fearless. That is all that matters for fanboys like me.

Modi is the leader that had the balls to ask IAF to cross the border. No other Indian leader displayed those (vajpayee / singh).


PS#1: All these points are old points that I mentioned earlier on pdf.
PS#2: I am really not trolling, and do not want to respond. But I am getting sucked into responding.
PS#3: Last post from me on this topic.
PS#4: maybe, I am generalizing for all Indians.
PS#5: I feel happy for the way Abhinandan attempted to fight. He is my hero. He is from my neighboring state, and that makes me doubly happy.
PS#6: if some of statements appear contradictory, then it is because of fast typing on cell phone.
PS#7: All the above is my viewpoint, and there is no intention to troll.

 

[ummarz]

Believe it or not, part of me want to believe / wish that PAF shot down not one but two su-30. The reason is - I want IAF to buy lot of Rafale. But that did not happen, and Rafale number is stuck at 36.

One thing is for sure - IAF is done purchasing Russian aircraft.

a) I am very angry the way IAF had so many lacunae that PAF greatly exploited on that day. I was like - what was IAF doing all these years? However, I am very novice to air battles. Maybe, I do not understand everything that happened on that day, and my conclusions about IAF conduct on that day are all wrong.
b) I tried asking experts on PDF about how any other airforce would have conducted when forced with large formation of enemy at a time and place of enemy's choosing. But such experts don't exist / not respond in PDF.
C) I trust the top leadership of India (for ex: Ajit Doval). He is the boss and not a guy who would suffer idiots. So, India is in responsible hands. Not someone sleeping at the wheel.
D) The then IAF chief has openly agreed that IAF has let it's advantage on bvr weapons (range) slip to PAFs hands in the last 15 or so years.


India has taken lot of humiliation (Mumbai attacks; parliament attacks etc) from pak without responding for many many yesrs.

For us Indians, the fact of IAF jets crossing the border is enough to cheer about. It does not matter if the bombs hit the target or not. You , pakistanis, don't realize that and keep arguing if the bombs hit their targets or abhinandan fired etc etc....all such arguments don't matter too much to Indians (atleast to me). What matters is - has IAF crossed the border and released payload? Has Abhinandan crossed the border and try to kill an enemy aircraft?

Abhinandan is a hero of us for that very reason. He is shot on pak territory. He is brave and fearless. That is all that matters for fanboys like me.

Modi is the leader that had the balls to ask IAF to cross the border. No other Indian leader displayed those (vajpayee / singh).


PS#1: All these points are old points that I mentioned earlier on pdf.
PS#2: I am really not trolling, and do not want to respond. But I am getting sucked into responding.
PS#3: Last post from me on this topic.
PS#4: maybe, I am generalizing for all Indians.
PS#5: I feel happy for the way Abhinandan attempted to fight. He is my hero. He is from my neighboring state, and that makes me doubly happy.
PS#6: if some of statements appear contradictory, then it is because of fast typing on cell phone.
PS#7: All the above is my viewpoint, and there is no intention to troll.

You really should be angry about your government misleading the people of India. Their actions lead to so many deaths that day. They nearly pushed the region into a wider conflict. But to cover up their arses they are now giving fake awards, to satiate the Indian public.

Bottom line is, Abhi is getting an award for things he didn't do. His and the honour of Indian armed services is being misused for covering up the mistakes of the government. Your leader Modi is running your country like a tea stall!

I found Abhi to be an honourable man, he handled himself with class. He didn't make false claims when he went back. I used to speak up for him with my friends and colleagues. But all that is now lost. He shouldn't have accepted the award for something he didn't do.

Finally, you say you don't know much about modern air combat. I believe you and I can see it. But then you should not make false claims regarding the results when you really have no idea how air combats are fought these days.

 

[vi-va]

Abhinandan was awarded by shooting down PAF F-16.
India has no shame.

Such a shameless country can't win Pakistan and China respect, never.

Abhinandan Mig--21Bsion carries 2 R77，2 R73. All of 4 missiles were found in Pakistan. Abhinandan must have shot down F-16 with machine gun beyond 60 km. LOL

Pakistan needs more fantastic tea to serve India POW.

 

[xyxmt]

If you can endure Pakistani slaps and live to tell the tale then you deserve a Vir Chakla

 

[Patriots]

Indians always tell wrong history to their people .......

 

[Goritoes]

Was the tea at least fantastic before that?

Hell yeah, but not as Fantastic as our Award winning POW Abhinundon got in Pakistan army base, That tea has no match

 

[Goritoes]

Indians always tell wrong history to their people .......

Because they know, truth don't matter to these idiots.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Believe it or not, part of me want to believe / wish that PAF shot down not one but two su-30. The reason is - I want IAF to buy lot of Rafale. But that did not happen, and Rafale number is stuck at 36.

One thing is for sure - IAF is done purchasing Russian aircraft.

a) I am very angry the way IAF had so many lacunae that PAF greatly exploited on that day. I was like - what was IAF doing all these years? However, I am very novice to air battles. Maybe, I do not understand everything that happened on that day, and my conclusions about IAF conduct on that day are all wrong.
b) I tried asking experts on PDF about how any other airforce would have conducted when forced with large formation of enemy at a time and place of enemy's choosing. But such experts don't exist / not respond in PDF.
C) I trust the top leadership of India (for ex: Ajit Doval). He is the boss and not a guy who would suffer idiots. So, India is in responsible hands. Not someone sleeping at the wheel.
D) The then IAF chief has openly agreed that IAF has let it's advantage on bvr weapons (range) slip to PAFs hands in the last 15 or so years.


India has taken lot of humiliation (Mumbai attacks; parliament attacks etc) from pak without responding for many many yesrs.

For us Indians, the fact of IAF jets crossing the border is enough to cheer about. It does not matter if the bombs hit the target or not. You , pakistanis, don't realize that and keep arguing if the bombs hit their targets or abhinandan fired etc etc....all such arguments don't matter too much to Indians (atleast to me). What matters is - has IAF crossed the border and released payload? Has Abhinandan crossed the border and try to kill an enemy aircraft?

Abhinandan is a hero of us for that very reason. He is shot on pak territory. He is brave and fearless. That is all that matters for fanboys like me.

Modi is the leader that had the balls to ask IAF to cross the border. No other Indian leader displayed those (vajpayee / singh).


PS#1: All these points are old points that I mentioned earlier on pdf.
PS#2: I am really not trolling, and do not want to respond. But I am getting sucked into responding.
PS#3: Last post from me on this topic.
PS#4: maybe, I am generalizing for all Indians.
PS#5: I feel happy for the way Abhinandan attempted to fight. He is my hero. He is from my neighboring state, and that makes me doubly happy.
PS#6: if some of statements appear contradictory, then it is because of fast typing on cell phone.
PS#7: All the above is my viewpoint, and there is no intention to troll.

1. Just a recap, these are accepted by both sides.
(1) IAF entering in to Pakistani airspace and dropping bombs. (26th)
(2) PAF retaliating and going in to Indian controlled air space and dropping bombs (27th)
(3) IAF loss of Mig-21 Bison. (27th)
(4) IA loss of Mi-17 (fratricide) (27th)
(5) Loss of personnel aboard the IA helicopter (5 or 6 i believe) (27th)
(6) 1 POW i.e. Wing Commander Abhi (27th)


This is the result of what you are happy about i.e. "Modi's intent'. The same IAF that liked to talk about how it was beating the USAF F-16's using Mig-21's or how the SU-30 MKI's got kills on EF-2000 in exercises etc etc. All those tall claims, and the IAF couldn't stop Mirage III/V's which came in to service in the PAF in 1967, the F-16's it claimed that even its Mig-21's could stop, and the JF-17 which every Indian fanboy believes is just another 'modernized Mig-21 lacking composites and technology from the 70's".

Those are the platforms that beat you to a pulp after announcing that they were going to do so a day prior, to the point where the big bad IAF did not DARE mount a follow up attack and the whole situation went towards deescalation .


You said you were happy about Modi's intent of mounting a strike on Pakistani soil when an attack happens in Indian occupied kashmir and blamed on Pakistan. My question is where did all that intent suddenly go when aircrafts bearing the Pakistani flag went to an IAF controlled airspace, dropped bombs, caused a fratricide, loss of Indian personnel and destroyed an aircraft in the process while taking a POW?

 

[wasileo80]

The only confirmation we have is that Abhinandan demonstrated great bravery and fired the missiles at Pak Fighters. The award should be limited to his bravery of fighting with an antiquated fighter called MIG-21 and not shooting down the Pak fighter.

Even in Past, military awards have been awarded by both countries to downed pilots for their service for nation, for bravery and call of duty beyond their personal safety. It is a normal practice, and if Indian govt. gives award for his bravery and courage to fight lonely with very limited resources and outnumbering against superior opponent on that day. Then surely there would not be an issue of awarding Vir Chakra to Wing Commander. And Abhinandan could also be satisfied and can stand tall that Indian govt, IAF and his nation at least acknowledge his efforts and courage.
But the problem here is that he has been awarded for a lie, which he never achieved. That is why he is ashamed and guilty that his own mates also knew that he never even fired a bullet leave alone a missile. So how can he face his mates in uniform? So why this shosha all over the internet that he has been awarded for a false kill and that too when everybody knows that its complete lie.

 

[wasileo80]

This is not by any length an official report. A reporter named Lara Seligman apparently spoke to 2 who had knowledge that a count took place. No official word fro the US so no..this cannot be deemed official at all!
Having said that, I am in the camp that believes enough proof needs to be shared for conclusively saying the F-16 was shot down. I am not a believer until I see it but I just wondered why PAF cannot parade the dual seaters and seal this once and for all.

Mr. from where the proof will come which you are seeking because there were no F-16 fatality during 27th Feb. 2019. So you will wait for proof till dooms day because proof exists only for a fact not for imaginary theories. So rest assured that you cant find any proof for an incident which never took place.

That is why I repeat so many times that Truth is always one, and there are no different version of it where as Lie may have a million version because its a lie and you can turned it to your favor by changing it whenever you wants.

 

[wasileo80]

Believe it or not, part of me want to believe / wish that PAF shot down not one but two su-30. The reason is - I want IAF to buy lot of Rafale. But that did not happen, and Rafale number is stuck at 36.

Well one SU-30 MKI was more than enough to shatter IAF on that day. And yes, if you spent 12 years on PDF, then you may also knew that your country men always shouting on pdf that half of MKI fleet can be enough for PAF and they will vanish whole PAF in first day of battle. They made sky high claims of Asian Raptor but when test came, everybody saw the fate of that Asian Raptor.

Now comes to Rafale, dear let the Rafale comes on scene and then you will see another episode of Feb. 27 in sha ALLAH.

And for your claim that it would be more than enough for you guys that Modi have the balls to attack Pakistan. Well, if he realy had that courage then he may launch the missile strike against Pakistan on night of 27th Feb. 2019 but it backed off because Pakistani Military caught him by balls by counter threat of 3 times missile strike for every single Indian missile. Now, if you are calling him courage then you are the most insane person on this planet who supports a ridiculous move by a fascist person to put 1.5 Billion population on stake of mutual destruction?


And for your claim dropping bombs and IAF crossing, entering into Pakistani airspace? Then you must feel fortunate that on that night, IAF only crossed a couple of KMs and that too while turning back to Indian Controlled Territory. And if they dare to pursue the course, then you may get the result of may be 4 or 5-0 in PAF favor, if they stayed in Pakistani air space for little longer. As PAF Caps were approaching fast towards Indian formations which were in numerical superiority on that day against PAF. But they made good decision to turn back and saved their arse that day.

One more thing, on morning of 26th Feb. if there was any human casualty by bombs dropped by IAF. Then you could crying now for losing your Army Chief and Commander Northern command.
So you should be thankful to IAF first that their bombs missed the target (because there were no terrorist but only young kids who get Quran education there), which forced PAF by Pakistan high command just to show restrain that are capable enough to hit you where ever we want and spare your high command lives.

 

[vi-va]

Because they know, truth don't matter to these idiots.

Because if they tell them the truth, the rulers always come from Pakistan and Afghanistan, and greater west Asia, Central Asia.
India was ruled by Muslim for a thousand years, how can Hindutva accept that?

 

[SIPRA]

Award to Abhinandan was also necessary to keep his mouth shut on what really happened on that fateful day?