Graphic of India and Pakistan's underwater nuclear deterrent

[Cool_Soldier]

Next target is Nuclear Sub to be in PN equipped with babur-3 and later on SBM

 

[Safriz]

View attachment 369862

Brahmos is a Commercial product , made by a business venture for being sold to Indian armed forces and international customers. That's why they "have" to release such detailed videos as advertisement tool.
Babur or any Pakistani Missile is not for sale and they do not need to release high quality videos.

 

[amardeep mishra]

I mean if you are educated enough, Call yourself a so called intelligent researcher, then why didnt you research properly before belittling Pak SLCM test video. Shows how ignorant and shallow you are infact. Whats benefit of your intelligence if you are shallow by nature.

My dear @Bratva
That is the problem,majority of you,find it "offensive" whenever I ask for proper engineering proof.I mean I dont understand this trend--Why does anyone has to feel offensive?I am not here to insult anyone or any country. If My mere asking for proof makes you so vulnerable to disgust or contempt then I would humbly suggest you to inspect your outlook. You labeled me ignorant,shallow and what not--just because I happened to have questioned the veracity of the ISPR video?Seriously? My dear friend, There are "standard" protocols that needs to be followed when a country goes for "test launch" of an underwater weapon system-- clearly those protocols werent followed in the case of babur-3-- thats what ticked me off. I have already debated this issue with lets say our people who have been "involved" in some of our underwater cruise/SLBM launches.
So,instead of "calling names" it would be really helpful if you could just prove me wrong by "verifiable and credible engineering literature" pertaining to whatever you wish to establish.Believe me I will be the more than happy to correct myself!
Thanks in advance!

To all the indians, Who were getting confused with the color of missile. Just look at this video of Ground launched test and see how Red and white Color Babur is Giving different shades of colors due to Camera angles and Poor quality of video recorded. I mean instead of engaging in useless discussions, you could have found this video

Again in the video above one could "appreciably" see there was a stark "red/orange" color on the missile.The white color patch that one could see was due to roll moments

You and your countrymen are having a really hard time digesting this fact. What you don't want to realize, is that subsequent trials will follow for a few years, and multiple videos will be released. Let me just list the "explanations" Indians are providing, just to show how pathetically sad you people are:

My dear @The Deterrent
I can not speak on behalf of 1.2bn right?-However I can speak for myself. TO be honest No one is having hard time digesting anything--it is just the "shady" ways with which various pakistani agencies work that raises suspicion(and please pardon me if I have offended anyone!).
You see,when you design a system--you involve a lot of people(or agencies) with different competencies to get the job done--for instance there will be labs specializing in design of underwater and cold launching mechanism,then there will be lab specializing in propulsion,then there will be a lab specializing in GNC to name a few. I never intended to say that pakistan isnt working on a SLCM--that was never my point. Of course they are working towards that--itz just the condition of launch video coupled with the way pakistani military engineering complex works that raised suspicion. If lets say my R&D efforts are really what I claim to be(in terms of it being indigenous!) then I should have no difficulty in accepting the R&D activities and publishing the contribution of various labs--it is not that india,china or pakistan have "invented" cruise missile or the tech used is so revolutionary that the other side will gain decisive advantage if they knew about various contribution of pakistani labs in this particular missile. Kindly note --no one is asking for source code for god sake!
Whatever these countries do have already been established some two decades back in terms of maturity and availability! The only thing that differs in these missiles is powerplant,aerodynamic configuration,maybe FPGA based implimentation(along with softwares) and sensors.

 

[MadDog]

Except he cold war is over. Reason for India Pakistan animosity was the cold war. You really think Pakistan needs so many nukes to make Indians shite their pants? Ruling and controlling people is problem especially the crazies you've got in your yards. Musharaff and Singh patched things up with back room channels. But the retoric needs to fly simply because more Pakistanis and Indians will die if India and Pakistan officially declared peace for love. The missile tests from pak or for domestic consption. The problem is rogue nations and or hijacked missiles. Remember the terrorist attacks on your high value targets ie frigate hijacking attempt. Etc. Both nations are misleading the public's to keep the monkeys in check. Pak more so than India given the rise of fundamentalism. What you guys need is Modi of your own to reign in on these monkeys.

Your assumptions are skewed, Pakistan has won the war on terror recognized globally, your lecture is good for gullible Indian public not here.
Balance of Terror/Nuclear Balance of Power is the only pratical way of ensuring peace through mutual vulnerabilities to second strike by strategic forces.

 

[kṣamā]

My dear @Bratva
That is the problem,majority of you,find it "offensive" whenever I ask for proper engineering proof.I mean I dont understand this trend--Why does anyone has to feel offensive?I am not here to insult anyone or any country. If My mere asking for proof makes you so vulnerable to disgust or contempt then I would humbly suggest you to inspect your outlook. You labeled me ignorant,shallow and what not--just because I happened to have questioned the veracity of the ISPR video?Seriously? My dear friend, There are "standard" protocols that needs to be followed when a country goes for "test launch" of an underwater weapon system-- clearly those protocols werent followed in the case of babur-3-- thats what ticked me off. I have already debated this issue with lets say our people who have been "involved" in some of our underwater cruise/SLBM launches.
So,instead of "calling names" it would be really helpful if you could just prove me wrong by "verifiable and credible engineering literature" pertaining to whatever you wish to establish.Believe me I will be the more than happy to correct myself!
Thanks in advance!


Again in the video above one could "appreciably" see there was a stark "red/orange" color on the missile.The white color patch that one could see was due to roll moments


My dear @The Deterrent
I can not speak on behalf of 1.2bn right?-However I can speak for myself. TO be honest No one is having hard time digesting anything--it is just the "shady" ways with which various pakistani agencies work that raises suspicion(and please pardon me if I have offended anyone!).
You see,when you design a system--you involve a lot of people(or agencies) with different competencies to get the job done--for instance there will be labs specializing in design of underwater and cold launching mechanism,then there will be lab specializing in propulsion,then there will be a lab specializing in GNC to name a few. I never intended to say that pakistan isnt working on a SLCM--that was never my point. Of course they are working towards that--itz just the condition of launch video coupled with the way pakistani military engineering complex works that raised suspicion. If lets say my R&D efforts are really what I claim to be(in terms of it being indigenous!) then I should have no difficulty in accepting the R&D activities and publishing the contribution of various labs--it is not that india,china or pakistan have "invented" cruise missile or the tech used is so revolutionary that the other side will gain decisive advantage if they knew about various contribution of pakistani labs in this particular missile. Kindly note --no one is asking for source code for god sake!
Whatever these countries do have already been established some two decades back in terms of maturity and availability! The only thing that differs in these missiles is powerplant,aerodynamic configuration,maybe FPGA based implimentation(along with softwares) and sensors.

Nice and logical argument Amar but I doubt you will be countered by some hard evidence or a spec sheet. Most probably it will be a cold fish response or a feble rant like "We dont belive in displaying our RnD facilities and testing procedures... <Insert a long relationship > works with <Insert a armed forces division of choice> says there is a lot more to come in future. A lot is happening in secrecy......." And there goes your logic.

It's an accepted trend in PDF, anything India dose like test a missile, vessel or any other technology "Post pics, audio, video, technical details, blue prints, scematics, prototypes, life history of all the people worked, CAG report, every single detail of its operational charecteristic or it never happened" but when Pakistan dose "ISPR ne bol diya matlab final. No questions asked." And if few of us ask questions about the tech "We build every thing, in secrecy. All RnD done in secrecy. All test done in secrecy." Dig in further stating its quite strange for a country that dose not have an aprretiable industry base for domestic civil needs but could develop complicated military hardware they always reply with completely relevent replies on Indian poverty, hunger, rape, detection, muslims in India, Hindu, modi etc.

 

[desimorty]

Your assumptions are skewed, Pakistan has won the war on terror recognized globally, your lecture is good for gullible Indian public not here.
Balance of Terror/Nuclear Balance of Power is the only pratical way of ensuring peace through mutual vulnerabilities to second strike by strategic forces.

Terror balance in Pakistan favour? That's the first. You basically have out of control snakes that are still biting you. You haven't won the war on terror. Still a lot of training cells and potential threats in Pakistani soil that could destabilize the region more than nukes.
Your war on terror is also a war against ignorance and fundamentalism that to his day it's at your society as well as benefit it and from it. Ie you need a Modi. So I respectfully disagree with your assumption.

 

[amardeep mishra]

It's an accepted trend in PDF, anything India dose like test a missile, vessel or any other technology "Post pics, audio, video, technical details, blue prints, scematics, prototypes, life history of all the people worked, CAG report, every single detail of its operational charecteristic or it never happened" but when Pakistan dose "ISPR

Well that is so because India is much more transparent when it comes to R&D . There are only two cases when you get very secretive-
1)Either you're doing some really cutting edge and top of the line research.
2) or your methods are shady and illegal.
#2 can arise due to a host of issues which is a very huge topic and requires some decent thinking and debate

 

[The Deterrent]

My dear @The Deterrent
I can not speak on behalf of 1.2bn right?-However I can speak for myself. TO be honest No one is having hard time digesting anything--it is just the "shady" ways with which various pakistani agencies work that raises suspicion(and please pardon me if I have offended anyone!).
You see,when you design a system--you involve a lot of people(or agencies) with different competencies to get the job done--for instance there will be labs specializing in design of underwater and cold launching mechanism,then there will be lab specializing in propulsion,then there will be a lab specializing in GNC to name a few. I never intended to say that pakistan isnt working on a SLCM--that was never my point. Of course they are working towards that--itz just the condition of launch video coupled with the way pakistani military engineering complex works that raised suspicion. If lets say my R&D efforts are really what I claim to be(in terms of it being indigenous!) then I should have no difficulty in accepting the R&D activities and publishing the contribution of various labs--it is not that india,china or pakistan have "invented" cruise missile or the tech used is so revolutionary that the other side will gain decisive advantage if they knew about various contribution of pakistani labs in this particular missile. Kindly note --no one is asking for source code for god sake!
Whatever these countries do have already been established some two decades back in terms of maturity and availability! The only thing that differs in these missiles is powerplant,aerodynamic configuration,maybe FPGA based implimentation(along with softwares) and sensors.

I would've explained you the geopolitics and the consequences of openly declaring the R&D efforts, however you are too stubborn to understand that. Nagging for 'literature' only makes you look like an ostrich with its head in the sand. I never said that everything was indigenous, but this accomplishment is. I would've been the first one to contradict it if the case was otherwise.

All procedures were followed, its only that it was declared for the public on a later date. And as for your "people" involved in the underwater launches, a prominent one of them couldn't even comprehend the idea of a torpedo-tube launched SLCM, and insisted that it was impossible because the "angle" was too diagonal. So please, spare us your apt video analysis.

 

[Dzz]

View attachment 369862

better quality

and more

 

[Blue Marlin]

Let me stop you right there. Pakistan doesn't have the "requisite industrial research capacity" to design and develop a SLCM? May I ask what is the "requisite industrial research capacity" to convert a land-based CM to a SLCM?


Err, you can find the chameleon skin that both Babur GLCM and Ra'ad ALCM have from earlier videos too. Wanna know why? Because they almost never release a good quality video. And as for the telemetry ship, I'm sure the video wasn't recorded from a rowboat in the middle of the sea.

You and your countrymen are having a really hard time digesting this fact. What you don't want to realize, is that subsequent trials will follow for a few years, and multiple videos will be released. Let me just list the "explanations" Indians are providing, just to show how pathetically sad you people are:
1. It wasn't a Pakistani missile, the Chinese SSN that was visiting Karachi Port fired a Chinese missile.
2. Pakistan fired a Harpoon/Exocet and labeled it as Babur.
3. It was a repainted Chinese missile.
4. The target-hitting clip is actually a rocket from an attack helicopter.

i only thought pakistan had sub launched exocets, never knew they had sub launch harpoons.

do you think pakistani planners are interested in slbm since slcm's dont have the range and payload as slbm's. obviously in or around 10 years.
would any of the 4 subs being built in karachi have nuclear propulsion.

 

[The Deterrent]

i only thought pakistan had sub launched exocets, never knew they had sub launch harpoons.

do you think pakistani planners are interested in slbm since slcm's dont have the range and payload as slbm's. obviously in or around 10 years.
would any of the 4 subs being built in karachi have nuclear propulsion.

PN has had UGM-84 Harpoons for (aboard the Agosta-70s I believe) for a long time.
Developing an SLBM isn't much of an issue, the real problem is getting a vessel with VLS for SLBMs. There probably aren't going to be any VLS aboard S-26/S-30, so for the foreseeable future we won't see anything in this regard.

In the past I have maintained that the indigenous N-sub program is independent from the Chinese ones, however now I believe that the rumored reactor Pakistan is developing might be integrated with an S-26/30 assembled in Pakistan. This is the shortest and most efficient way to get this capability. That said, I still don't see a point of a nuclear submarine unless it has SLBM capability. The AIP SSKs with SLCMs will do just fine for the Indo-Pak region.

@Penguin @Rashid Mahmood might be able to elaborate further.

 

[kṣamā]

I would've explained you the geopolitics and the consequences of openly declaring the R&D efforts

Isn't it Pakistan who openly state and claim to have the largest growing nuke reserves and openly aspire to be in top 4? Isn't it Pakistan who om a drop of a hat threaten with nuclear winter? Isn't it pakistan who quite literally screams from every rooftop that they are "Nuclear Power"?

If these things can be declared openly without get political consequences then why would Inhouse RnD of a 750km subsonic SLCM cause the entire universe to go bat shyt crazy? India too comes in same class. But the difference as @amardeep mishra stated, we are quite transparent in our RnD efforts.

Plus the most irregularity of the entire Pakistani missile program is absolutely no Failure... 100% success rate!! Come on seriously..!! You know better than anyone here how perilious rocket tech is... History is littered with failures by different nations with various level of technology maturity who have failed quite spectacularly (keeping nationality at bay, rocket explosions in slowmo is seriously awesome). How do Pakistan explain that.

Even spacex have Failure. You certainly wouldn't place Pakistani rocket tech above them (ie, they have invented heavily and have a heavy SLV. And it f'ing lands itself back on land.) So how come they accept Failure but never in Pakistan?

 

[The Deterrent]

Isn't it Pakistan who openly state and claim to have the largest growing nuke reserves and openly aspire to be in top 4? Isn't it Pakistan who om a drop of a hat threaten with nuclear winter? Isn't it pakistan who quite literally screams from every rooftop that they are "Nuclear Power"?

1. Pakistan never officially claimed that it 'wants' to be on the stand of medals of nukes. It is the analysis of western experts that Pakistan's rate of production of nuclear weapons is alarmingly high, which is true.
2. You must understand, these kind of statements are there to raise awareness among Indian and International community of the grave consequences of a conflict in our region. Nukes are almost the only thing stopping India from aggression in the wake of a possible terror attack. We HAVE to raise hue and cry in order to maintain that status.

If these things can be declared openly without get political consequences then why would Inhouse RnD of a 750km subsonic SLCM cause the entire universe to go bat shyt crazy? India too comes in same class. But the difference as @amardeep mishra stated, we are quite transparent in our RnD efforts.

As long as the general public (read majority of the US Congress) believes that Pakistan's capabilities are primitive and just for deterring India, Pakistan is in relatively calm waters. We have been sanctioned before every time Pakistan developed a key capability. The last time a key person (AQ Khan) spoke about possession of nukes (back in early 1990s), Pakistan was slapped with the Pressler amendments.

Plus the most irregularity of the entire Pakistani missile program is absolutely no Failure... 100% success rate!! Come on seriously..!! You know better than anyone here how perilious rocket tech is... History is littered with failures by different nations with various level of technology maturity who have failed quite spectacularly (keeping nationality at bay, rocket explosions in slowmo is seriously awesome). How do Pakistan explain that.
Even spacex have Failure. You certainly wouldn't place Pakistani rocket tech above them (ie, they have invented heavily and have a heavy SLV. And it f'ing lands itself back on land.) So how come they accept Failure but never in Pakistan?

We all know that is only for the moral of the public. Yes, Pakistani weapon tests do fail. In fact, more Pakistani systems have failed than India's. But the public doesn't needs to know, what matters is that the production versions work flawlessly.

 

[$@rJen]

No real sub capability... or planned.. air capability worked on..
http://www.brahmos.com/content.php?id=10&sid=10


Also id stay away from this source.. which talks about vedic missiles etc
Ever heard of an anti ship nuclear missile?

Even under MTCR nuclear capable missiles cant be sold or exported
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/mtcr



As for Yakhont... dont fool yourself or others

http://idrw.org/?p=18845

There are at least four explanations for this in the whisper corridors but nothing official has come yet from the Russians. One such explanation is that except for the P-700, the rest of the Russian fleet has 300Km missiles, same range as the BrahMos. The argument is that anything bigger would require heavier ships and subs because the P-700 is a 7 ton missile and only the Kirov class carries it.



The other explanation is that the Russians currently don’t have a requirement for BrahMos because they are not inducting new ships like India is. Russia’s latest inductions will happen only later this year for the new Gorshkov class frigates. The new ships will either be equipped with BrahMos or Klub missiles, depending on the budget. Klubs are cheaper but BrahMos is more capable.



Third, many Russian experts view BrahMos as a downgraded Yakhont and so why should Russia choose it instead of Yakhont? It is pointed out that Yakhont is the export name for the P-800 Oniks. BrahMos is just the short range version of Yakhont. The Indians wanted a longrange missile but the Russians could not give it because of the MTCR (Missile TechnologyControl Regime) stipulations and so they gave the shorter version (BrahMos) to the Indians.



Fourth, Russia cannot incorporate whatever they have learnt from the BrahMos because everything for the missile is out sourced from Russia. The missile’s seeker, guidance,navigation and fire control systems are all India’s responsibility for manufacturing along with the firing mechanism. Why should Russia develop the same things again and incorporate these into the Oniks?



However, BrahMos has a greater tactical value over Yakhont. While Yakhont is an anti-shipcruise missile only and can be fired from ships, BrahMos can be used against any land or seabased target and can be fired from any platform be it land, sea, air or underwater.



BrahMos a Game Changer for India



Whatever Russia’s reasons are for not integrating the BrahMos missiles in its armed forces yet, for India BrahMos is a potent weapon and a veritable game changer. In view of this, Antony, in his February 19, 2013 speech announced that the Indian government has decided to expand the infrastructure at multiple centres to cater to larger production requirement of BrahMos missiles and systems. He said the Indian armed forces consider BrahMos to be an important weapon due to its speed, precision and power.



Antony also said that the cooperation between the scientists and scientific expertise of India’s DRDO and Russia’s NPOM and many other organizations from India and Russia has proved that there is a way to do things faster and take the lead in the world. He pointed out that the partnership has blossomed and yielded results, which have not been achieved by any other country.



The minister said that the role of DRDO, NPOM and the quality assurance agencies ingrooming this industry to achieve high technology levels and a superior quality product has indeed resulted in customer’s delight, that is, the Indian defence forces. He remarked that this process has resulted in a new trend of thinking, in terms of a collaboration and joint venture, as India too could share its technology and products with others.



Indian Air Force Chief NAK Browne in his address said that the modified Su-30 Mk-1 aircraft will soon be equipped with BrahMos missile. It should be pointed out in this context that the Indian Army and the Navy have already got BrahMos, while the IAF will get it by 2014. The integration of the new BrahMos missile on to Sukhoi’s Su-30MKI long-rangefighter is due to reach a key milestone this year with integration of the weapon on test aircraft, ahead of planned first deliveries to the IAF in 2014

P.S: Yakhont was always air launch capable..
0000000000


Even airlaunched version had :

The Izvestia daily quoted a defence industry source as saying that the BrahMos missile, test fired from the Russian-built frigate INS Teg, had a new satellite guidance system borrowed from Russia’s long-range cruise missile X-555 and its latest version, X-101. The new guidance technology, which uses Global Navigation Satellite System (Glonass) — Russia’s alternative to the U.S. Global Positioning System (GPS) — has been added to the BrahMos’ Doppler-inertial guidance system to increase its range and precision.

yakhont

View attachment 369194

brahmos

View attachment 369195

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ss-n-26.htm


Last time you became upset over russian helpin india with arihant which was dead before the russians came to rescue and now this.



Except JF-17 isnt a F-7.. and MKI is an upgraded variant of su-27 ...called Su-27P...and so on.


SU-27 variants
Su-27 - basic, pure A2A, over 20 years old, soviet variant - Su-27UB is two seater variant
Su-27SK - upgraded Su-27 with some new systems and limited A2G capabilities (not on Chinese Su-27SK) - UBK is two seater variant of SK
Su-27SK2 - more advanced modernizacion fo RuAF
Su-30 (Su-27P) - two seat interceptor with air refueling probe
Su-33 (Su-27K) - carrier based variant of Su-27SK
Su-34 (Su-27IB) - bomber variant to replace Su-24, the most advanced Su-27 in serial production so far.
Su-35 (Su-27M) - demonstrator, Russians are going to use avionics from it in modernization of old Su-27 (but engines and hull stay the same - no canards, no trust vectoring etc), and if they will run out of airframes for modernization they are considering to start serial production of Su-35 or Su-37.
Su-37 (Su-27MP) - demonstrator, Su-35 with TVC engines.
Su-27SMK - Su-27 airframes upgraded with the avionics package of the Su-35


Variants for export:
Su-30K - Su-30 for export
Su-30MK - first multi role variant, two seater.
Su-30MKM - proposed version for Malaysia
Su-30MKA - export version for Algeria
Su-30MKK - export version for China
Su-30MKK2 - improved for naval attack (in use by Chinise Navy)
Su-30MKI - for export to India (advanced French/Israel avionics, trust vectoring, canards etc.), much better then MK/MKK
Su-32FN - proposed export variant of Su-34
basic Su-27 and Su-27SK are also offered for export

LoL.. Yes Under MTCR prohibits export of such a missile. but brahmos isn't export, its jointly developed

 

[Blue Marlin]

PN has had UGM-84 Harpoons for (aboard the Agosta-70s I believe) for a long time.
Developing an SLBM isn't much of an issue, the real problem is getting a vessel with VLS for SLBMs. There probably aren't going to be any VLS aboard S-26/S-30, so for the foreseeable future we won't see anything in this regard.

In the past I have maintained that the indigenous N-sub program is independent from the Chinese ones, however now I believe that the rumored reactor Pakistan is developing might be integrated with an S-26/30 assembled in Pakistan. This is the shortest and most efficient way to get this capability. That said, I still don't see a point of a nuclear submarine unless it has SLBM capability. The AIP SSKs with SLCMs will do just fine for the Indo-Pak region.

@Penguin @Rashid Mahmood might be able to elaborate further.

i would have imagined a french sub being arm with french missiles, oh well.

so slbm's are not a problem, but the vessel itself. lets say (hypothetically speaking) can pakistan build a missile similar to trident/m51 if ordered to?

as for a ssbn ask china for help, the indians did the same with the russains and they admit it. they helped with the design of the sub, reactor and training of crew.

what about a conventional type 93 and build a nuclear variant. as a ssk it would be slightly bigger than the short-fin barracuda. not to fire slbm's but slcm where you have more range and endurance to target india's east coast.