Granting India transit rights through Pakistan to Afghanistan

[Peshwa]

This particular Trojan horse is far too dangerous. Considering the level of mistrust and our suspicions about Indian designs in Afghanistan and Balochistan, why on earth would we make it easier for India to connect with Afghanistan?

People-to-people contacts can be achieved far better through exchange of students, artists, tourists, etc. Visitors from either country would still need to report to the local police station in each city they visit, just like now.

If this is just about frustrating India and cutting access to CAR because of our past, then yes, by no means should Pakistan allow transit and should use its positioning to the maximum advantage.....

But you have to also consider that "Money is the biggest incentive, and motivator".....
So if we both have to benefit from this trade, chances are that our leader will not be as erratic in "flexing military muscle", throwing blames, jeapordizing and playing proxy games if money is at stake....
This will also help curtail the voice of the uber nationalists like RSS from our side who are all about cutting relations with Pakistan, thus stalling the peace process!!
China is a smaller example of the same where our trade is significant and might even exceed $100Billion in the coming decade......thus making the price of war much higher......

We can't babysit each and every truck all the way during transit. Even if India allows Pakistan to cross India and get to Bangladesh, the benefits still wouldn't add up. Would India allow Pakistani truckers to enter and roam freely throughout Kashmir?

I agree with the above statement.....National security comes first....I mean I would be a hypocrite if I said that Pakistani truckers would be allowed to roam free in Kashmir....
So yes.....Your security concerns are well warranted and if this moves ahead Im sure they will find a solution.....

But I think the strech from Kashmir going into Afghanistan via Pak is not a very long one....as opposed to Pakistani truckers having to cross the entire breadth of India to get to BD.

 

[Ingis]

I love these posts by Indians...
According to the IMF:

Report for Selected Countries and Subjects

GDP Per capita:
2007: India 939.524; Pakistan 912.170
2008: India 1,016.158; Pakistan 1,044.485
2009: India 981.984; Pakistan 997.799
2010: India 1,007.891; Pakistan 1,028.596



Hint: you really don't want to see the India/China comparison.

Uhh... and I really love the lack of knowledge so widespread here.

I clearly mentioned PPP, not nominal. The figures you posted above are based nominal analysis which speaks nothing about the the purchasing power parity of the people.

And even then, the nominal analysis by some other organizations do rank India higher than Pakistan.

GDP per capita (PPP) -
*IMF -- India - $2,762; Pakistan - $2,739
*WB -- India - $2,753; Pakistan - $2,525
*CIA -- India - $2,800; Pakistan - $2,600

GDP per capita (nomial) -
*IMF -- India - $1,016; Pakistan - $1,044
*WB -- India - $1,042; Pakistan - $844
*CIA -- India - $1,078; Pakistan - $931

In 5 out of 6 GDP per capita data, India is ahead of Pakistan.

Only IMF ranked India's per capita income (nominal) below that of Pakistan but even that is going to change.

--------------------

And why bring China into all of this? India is behind China and Indians know about it. That is why Indians thrive to catch-up with China. Pakistan is behind India and Pakistanis fail to recognize it. They live in this dreamland of the 1980s when Pakistan was economically more well-off than India. But India not only caught up but left Pakistan far behind. And China is next in line though it will take some time.

 

[Ingis]

^^^ I mean seriously - can people please do simple fact checks on socio-economic indicators before ranting about 'your country is poorer than mine, and should therefore spend more money on poverty alleviation'?

Socio-economic indicators?

Economic Competitiveness Ranking -

India - 49
Pakistan - 101

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR09/GCR20092010fullreport.pdf

International Innovation Index

India - 0.06
Pakistan - -0.82

http://www.nam.org/innovationreport.pdf

Literacy rate

India - 61%
Pakistan - 49.9%

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_20072008_EN_Complete.pdf

Quality of Life index

India - 5.759
Pakistan - 5.229

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.PDF

Infant mortality rate

India - 55 deaths/1000 births
Pakistan - 67.5 death/1000 births

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/wpp2006/WPP2006_Highlights_rev.pdf

Undernourishment

India - 20%
Pakistan - 23%

The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2006

Economic Freedom Index

India - 6.6
Pakistan - 6.1

The Economic Freedom of the World Project

Prosperity Index ranking -

India - 57
Pakistan - 72

The 2008 Legatum Prosperity Index

Failed State ranking -

India - 87
Pakistan - 10

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/090624_2009_final_data.pdf

Human Development Index -

India - 132
Pakistan - 139

http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDI_2008_EN_Tables.pdf

 

[Nomad]

I am not understanding the logic of some members on this forum.

Shipping and container security is very advanced throughout the world. Every container that comes into the US is checked (though all are not physically checked). The same can be set up on the India/pakistan border. It is not very expensive. Business people need their product to reach its destination. For security reasons pakistani drivers can drive it in Pakistan. Container facilities can be set up on either side of the border. If even 200 containers cross the border in a day it will provide jobs to over 1000 truckers. Think about the transit revenue, insurance revenues for insuring the containers, inspectors, and other incidental jobs this will provide.

So security can be achieved.

Now if the only reason Pakistan should not allow this is because India will improve it economy with easy access to CAR's makes no sense. It is called "cutting your nose to spite your face". Both Pakistan and India will be net benificiaries in a scenario where transit is allowed.

The simple truth in business is "where there is demand, someone will figure out a way to meet this demand". So if Indian product can be sold in the CAR's someone will sell it thru Iran or wherever. Once these routes are established then there need to very high incentives to change the routes later. Bangaladesh almost made a similar mistake on the Asian highway using similar logic. Who knows where the world will be economically in ten years. Strike while the iron is hot.

Waiting for a solution on Kashmir is waiting for a dead horse to come alive. Its not going to happen. No matter what you say or do India is not giving up Kashmir. In ten years both sides of Kashmir may look almost like East and West Germany. So instead of the same tired old arguments, look to the future of a vibrant Pakistan. The future is in trade which will create jobs for your people and build your economy.

 

[graphican]

So.. you don't like Pakistani government. Obviously you hate India. And you hate USA too.

So much hatred is not good.. you know.

Yup, after all something has to get larger in magnitude to face forces that are greater in size and capacity. How do you think Afghans are able to sustain rather slapping America so hard that its sound echos in White House? Its hate for your enemy and love for the motherland. We love Pakistan more than our lives and now we are hating US and the Fcuking Forces of Zion more and more everyday. One day this volcano will erupt. Inshallah!

By the way, before we get Shah-e-Shair-e-Ali as the president of this country, night will be darker, rather darkest of all times. I thank God that time is very near now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Uhh... and I really love the lack of knowledge so widespread here.

I clearly mentioned PPP, not nominal. The figures you posted above are based nominal analysis which speaks nothing about the the purchasing power parity of the people.

And even then, the nominal analysis by some other organizations do rank India higher than Pakistan.

GDP per capita (PPP) -
*IMF -- India - $2,762; Pakistan - $2,739
*WB -- India - $2,753; Pakistan - $2,525
*CIA -- India - $2,800; Pakistan - $2,600

GDP per capita (nomial) -
*IMF -- India - $1,016; Pakistan - $1,044
*WB -- India - $1,042; Pakistan - $844
*CIA -- India - $1,078; Pakistan - $931

In 5 out of 6 GDP per capita data, India is ahead of Pakistan.

Only IMF ranked India's per capita income (nominal) below that of Pakistan but even that is going to change.

'Ahead'? By what? A few dozen dollars, except for the WB numbers.

You could account for those through margin of error.

The point smart *** is that India and Pakistan's per capita and nominal GDP numbers are far too close for you to try and 'brag' about "Pakistan needing to divert money to reduce poverty", when India is pretty much right there too - and that applies to most of the indicators in your second post as well.

There is a saying in Urdu, "Andhon main Kaana Raja"

Translation - "Amongst the blind, a one eyed Prince" - the 'advantage' India has in those indicators doesn't even move her far enough ahead to take the 'one eyed Prince' title.

So stop with the puerile 'India is sooooo much better' rants (since your own stats show you aren't) and stick to the topic.

Here is some more information you can read (and comment on on the appropriate thread)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...te-pakistan-world-bank.html?highlight=poverty

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...13-ppaf-targeted-areas.html?highlight=poverty

 

[Ingis]

'Ahead'? By what? A few dozen dollars, except for the WB numbers.

You could account for those through margin of error.

The point smart *** is that India and Pakistan's per capita and nominal GDP numbers are far too close for you to try and 'brag' about "Pakistan needing to divert money to reduce poverty", when India is pretty much right there too - and that applies to most of the indicators in your second post as well.

There is a saying in Urdu, "Andhon main Kaana Raja"

Translation - "Amongst the blind, a one eyed Prince" - the 'advantage' India has in those indicators doesn't even move her far enough ahead to take the 'one eyed Prince' title.

So stop with the puerile 'India is sooooo much better' rants (since your own stats show you aren't) and stick to the topic.

Here is some more information you can read (and comment on on the appropriate thread)

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...te-pakistan-world-bank.html?highlight=poverty

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...13-ppaf-targeted-areas.html?highlight=poverty

FYI, my comment was in reply to an earlier comment made by Jana saying that "India is far far poorer than Pakistan".

Regarding the issue of government diverting billions of dollars in funds, Pakistan spends a greater percentage of its GDP (3%) on military compared to India (2.5%). And that does not even include the billions from US aid.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html

And obviously, if both Pakistan and India stop this senseless military posturing then the poor people in both countries would benefit. I never said that Pakistan is poor and India is some economic paradise.

 

[Developereo]

If this is just about frustrating India and cutting access to CAR because of our past, then yes, by no means should Pakistan allow transit and should use its positioning to the maximum advantage.....

The major consideration is national security and not facilitating RAW's logistics.

But you have to also consider that "Money is the biggest incentive, and motivator".....
So if we both have to benefit from this trade, chances are that our leader will not be as erratic in "flexing military muscle", throwing blames, jeapordizing and playing proxy games if money is at stake....
This will also help curtail the voice of the uber nationalists like RSS from our side who are all about cutting relations with Pakistan, thus stalling the peace process!!

This transit provides no benefit to Pakistan; all the benefit is to India. Even from a purely business point of view, why should we create competition for our goods in Afghanistan? Sure competition will always be there, but why should we actively facilitate it?

Also, India-Afghan trade would be a miniscule drop in India's economy and would not be a factor in any India-Pakistan conflict.

I clearly mentioned PPP, not nominal. The figures you posted above are based nominal analysis which speaks nothing about the the purchasing power parity of the people.

PPP is hotly under debate as a credible measure of comparative strength. You cannot compare a rice based diet with a wheat based diet, or a heavily vegetarian diet with a predominantly meat-eating diet. Despite many other cultural similarities between India and Pakistan, PPP comparisons simply do not hold.

In any case, even if we do accept your figures, which you acknowledge are inconsistent across organizations (CIA is not an authority on economic indicators), the difference between India and Pakistan is negligible. India, with 8x more resources should have leveraged economies of scale to far outstrip Pakistan. Yet it barely manages to edge ahead by a few percentage points and, in some cases, actually lags behind Pakistan. I will repeat your initial quote here which prompted my response (emphasis mine):

Pakistan's per capita income (PPP) is much below that of India

And why bring China into all of this?

Precisely to remind you of the "much below" in your sentence above.

And China is next in line though it will take some time.

Not even close. Far from catching up to China, India is projected to fall behind ever more.

Economic Competitiveness Ranking -
[...]
International Innovation Index
[...]
Economic Freedom Index
[...]
Prosperity Index ranking -

Vague socioeconomic babble by fly-by-night "institutes" masquerading as scholarly "analysis".

Literacy rate
[...]
Quality of Life index
[...]
Infant mortality rate
[...]
Undernourishment
[...]
Human Development Index -

All these measurements are within a few percentages of each other, despite India having 8x the resources of Pakistan. India has clearly failed to leverage economies of scale the way China has.

Here's something for you to chew:
Haq's Musings: UNDP Reports Pakistan Poverty Declined to 17%
Center for Poverty Reduction (CPRSPD), backed by the United Nations Development Program(UNDP), has estimated that Pakistan's poverty at national level declined sharply from 22.3 percent in 2005-06 (versus India's poverty rate of 42%) to 17.2 percent in 2007-08. This poverty estimate has been validated by the World Bank

I am not understanding the logic of some members on this forum.

Would the US have allowed Soviet truckers free access across the US during the Cold War?
Did European countries allow Warsaw Pact truckers to roam free within Europe?
Even now, does the US allow Cuban trucks to zip along US highways?

Pakistan spends a greater percentage of its GDP (3%) on military compared to India (2.5%).

India plans to increase its defence spending by 34% while its GDP will rise by at most 9%. You do the math.

And that does not even include the billions from US aid.

US aid is clearly earmarked for military or civilian use.

 

[Ingis]

Developereo,

Firstly, India does not have 8 times more resources than Pakistan. Let us consider land for example - India's area (3,287,240 km2) is less than 3 times that of Pakistan (803,940 km2) but its population is roughly 6.5 times that of Pakistan (1,200,000,000 vs. 180,000,000). In other words, Indian people have far less natural resources at their disposal on average compared to Pakistan. If you want, compare the population density figures of India and Pakistan.

Secondly, India faced far more serious issues compared to Pakistan - extremely large and diverse population, several secessionist movements and more than four decades of economic isolation. Almost every economist agrees that smaller countries tend to have better socio-economic scenario compared to larger countries simply because of relatively easier administration. But however small the difference might be, fact remains that India has higher per capita income, literacy rate and life expectancy than Pakistan. It basically means that even though we had lesser resources per capita, we managed them better.

And lastly, India and Pakistan have a long way to go. Both our countries are poor and cannot afford to spend so much money on military build-up. We must look beyond our present differences for the sake of better future.

 

[Samzy]

I agree with NOMAD. A good sensible reply in all of the posts above.

It started off with Trasit facility, went to GDP and even had a good visitor in the name of China.

Sticking to the point. As NOMAD said the benefits for Pakistan would be economical in the form of job creation and transit fees. Something that Pakistan needs more than the aid from US.

pakistan likes it or not, Indian Products are any ways making its way into Afganistan through Iran and air(far more than what used to be pre 2001). And i wont be surprised to know that US and allies are chipping in for the transport expense.

As to compete with pakistani goods, many of the products from India to afganistan is in the form of help and there is no competition when something is selling for free.
For the rest of the products, India can manage to bring the price of its commodities at par with the Pakistani goods by increasing its Quantity. India has far more leverage on Afgan Government and hence has better market access.

Ideally thinking, India and Pakistan can join hands and decide what to trade with afgans so that we dont step into each others shoes.

 

[trickey]

I love these posts by Indians...
According to the IMF:

Report for Selected Countries and Subjects

GDP Per capita:
2007: India 939.524; Pakistan 912.170
2008: India 1,016.158; Pakistan 1,044.485
2009: India 981.984; Pakistan 997.799
2010: India 1,007.891; Pakistan 1,028.596



Hint: you really don't want to see the India/China comparison.

Hint: PPP does not always mean Pakistan Peoples Party.

 

[gogbot]

I love these posts by Indians...
According to the IMF:

Report for Selected Countries and Subjects

GDP Per capita:
2007: India 939.524; Pakistan 912.170
2008: India 1,016.158; Pakistan 1,044.485
2009: India 981.984; Pakistan 997.799
2010: India 1,007.891; Pakistan 1,028.596



Hint: you really don't want to see the India/China comparison.

Following GDP per capita as a measurement of the economy Luxembourg is the worlds richest country.

and also dont rope china into every discussion.
we all know how much ahead china is from India in economic development. But both countries are still continuing to grow at a staggering rate.

P.S- Thanks Developereo for showing me how to choose an avatar

 

[IceCold]

NO Transit Trade for India. In return we are not going to get anything

Ohh yes we are:

Hint: Swiss Swiss