Govt will construct Diamer-Bhasha dam from its own resources if no foreign assistance is received

[Samlee]

nope, china hasnt, it has offered to construct but with high tarrif of nearly 8-10 rs twice of that which you will have to pay to WB if you get the loan from them(with tarrif around 4rs)
for all people have to understand that chinese are pure businessman ready totake the risk of investing in pakistan

Read The 10th Paragraph for Yourself

During the recent visit to China, the Three Gorges Corporation extended an offer for 100 percent funding for Pakistan’s most strategic project, the Diamer-Bhasha Dam, worth $11.8 billion that will have a capacity to store 8 million acre feet of water and generate 4,500 MW of electricity. The Chinese company said it will provide the whole funding but the project should be handed over to it without holding any International Competitive Bidding (ICB)

China reveals its cards for investing $20 billion in Pakistan - thenews.com.pk

 

[Hyde]

Our problem is not generating capacity. It is mismanagement and theft, even if we build a 100 dams. Billions of rupees of circular debt will strangle any system.

Both are two separate issues with utmost importance and needs to be dealt properly. One being more important in your eyes does not fade away the importance of another

 

[VCheng]

Both are two separate issues with utmost importance and needs to be dealt properly. One being more important in your eyes does not fade away the importance of another

My point is that it is relatively easy to add generating capacity compared to the almost impossible task of improving management and reducing theft.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

nope, china hasnt, it has offered to construct but with high tarrif of nearly 8-10 rs twice of that which you will have to pay to WB if you get the loan from them(with tarrif around 4rs)
for all people have to understand that chinese are pure businessman ready totake the risk of investing in pakistan

Exactly, that deal doens't make any sense. Better to spend from own resources in that case.

 

[ziaulislam]

My point is that it is relatively easy to add generating capacity compared to the almost impossible task of improving management and reducing theft.

over all theft was about 18% . honestly better than india.
real issue here is cost off generation while india use cheap coal for its 60% energy we use oil resulting in higher circular debt.
so we have two ways.
1. either completely abolish theft and increase tarrif
2. or go to cheaper source of production
with average coal tarrif of 8 rs(vs 22 rs of diesel based plants) and govt charging an average tarrif of 12 rs even if 20% of energy is stolen the circular debt will not happen.

Exactly, that deal doens't make any sense. Better to spend from own resources in that case.

well actually if you cant built it yourself it does make sense because they are built on BOT basis i.e they will be handed over to govt after 25 years
as there is a saying something is better than nothing. its far better than 22 rs furnanceoil or 8 rs imported coal

 

[VCheng]

over all theft was about 18% . honestly better than india.
real issue here is cost off generation while india use cheap coal for its 60% energy we use oil resulting in higher circular debt.
so we have two ways.
1. either completely abolish theft and increase tarrif
2. or go to cheaper source of production
with average coal tarrif of 8 rs(vs 22 rs of diesel based plants) and govt charging an average tarrif of 12 rs even if 20% of energy is stolen the circular debt will not happen.............

Mismanagement is so bad that circular debt is here to stay, just like loadshedding. When the exempt military owes the grid a billion rupees, who can say anything else?

 

[ziaulislam]

Read The 10th Paragraph for Yourself




China reveals its cards for investing $20 billion in Pakistan - thenews.com.pk

what do u think without "international bidding" really means

 

[waz]

Wind power Karachi, Sind and Baluchistan

Solar Baluchistan

Tidal power Arabian Sea, Sonmiani beach Baluchistan

Notice the area of strong tides in Yellow for Pakistan.

Yet the government goes for dams and little else. Costs and damage to the environment should also come into consideration.

 

[ziaulislam]

Mismanagement is so bad that circular debt is here to stay, just like loadshedding. When the exempt military owes the grid a billion rupees, who can say anything else?

your statement contradicts history, there was no circular debt in 90s because majority production came form hydro which was very cheap, so despite huge thefts circular debt never happened. thefts in 90s was nearly 50% but cost of production was around 0.25 rs from hydro and 2 rs from gas (we were self sufficient in fact had spare gas till early 2000s). so with average tarrif of 5 rs govt had no circular debt.

 

[Samlee]

what do u think without "international bidding" really means

If They Are Financing 100 % of The Project As Part of A Whopping $22 Billion Dollar Package on Easy Terms.This One Concession Is Not A Bad Price to Pay.When Soviets Gave Loan for Pakistan Steel Mill Did They Intend For Us to Use The Money For "International Competitive Bidding".No The Contract For That Was To Go To Tiajproexport.Same Is The case With Heavy Mechanical Complex China Gave A 20 Year Soft Loan For That Project But The Contract Went To Chinese.


If We Go By Your Formula My Great Grandchildren Will Get Married But Diamer Bhasha Dam Will Still Not Be Made.We Should Just Do This To World Bank and IFIs

So Trust Me Just Give It To The Chinese.Besides Agar Wo Itna De Rahe Hain To Itna To Unka Haq Banta Hai

 

[SBD-3]

your statement contradicts history, there was no circular debt in 90s because majority production came form hydro which was very cheap, so despite huge thefts circular debt never happened. thefts in 90s was nearly 50% but cost of production was around 0.25 rs from hydro and 2 rs from gas (we were self sufficient in fact had spare gas till early 2000s). so with average tarrif of 5 rs govt had no circular debt.

There was no issue because there weren't many IPPs at that time (Hubco was the first one in 1995 I think) and we had excess production than demand. So even if there was a debt stock
1-It didn't impact the power outages as excessive production capacity fall still compensated for demand of electricty.
2- The input price mix was very affordable (the first reason why Oil, HS Diesel and Gas based plants were set up). Furthermore, hydel capacity to total capacity ratio was around 36% in 1990 which deteriorated to around 27% in 2000. The oil price started picking up around 2004-05 making thermal generation very expensive.
2-Government owing to its own power generation would not be called a circular debt as circular debt is owed by government to private sector.

 

[VCheng]

your statement contradicts history, there was no circular debt in 90s because majority production came form hydro which was very cheap, so despite huge thefts circular debt never happened. thefts in 90s was nearly 50% but cost of production was around 0.25 rs from hydro and 2 rs from gas (we were self sufficient in fact had spare gas till early 2000s). so with average tarrif of 5 rs govt had no circular debt.

There is no contradiction in what I say: The mismanagement is slowly getting worse and worse.

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

Maybe you can take him to court....? I am sure Zani khan will come along but guess what, no one has ever proven that NS has money in foreign accounts that was looted. Calm your hormones and keep supporting your zani leader

zani khan .. lolz bhul gaye s.brothers uk mai kiya kartay pakray gaye the?

 

[ziaulislam]

There was no issue because there weren't many IPPs at that time (Hubco was the first one in 1995 I think) and we had excess production than demand. So even if there was a debt stock
1-It didn't impact the power outages as excessive production capacity fall still compensated for demand of electricty.
2- The input price mix was very affordable (the first reason why Oil, HS Diesel and Gas based plants were set up). Furthermore, hydel capacity to total capacity ratio was around 36% in 1990 which deteriorated to around 27% in 2000. The oil price started picking up around 2004-05 making thermal generation very expensive.
2-Government owing to its own power generation would not be called a circular debt as circular debt is owed by government to private sector.

in summary it was all about cost..even till early 2000s when oil was cheap and hydro was major input we didnt had circular debt, though alot of IPPs were working and very high electric theft at that time
we also didnt had major subsidies in this area
when brotha came into production, it did helped in the mix around 2002.
real problem started in 2005 after increase in depend, oil prices and lack of gas for the power plants that had to be shifted on furnace oil

what i wanted to say that even if we maintain the current theft ratio (82% recovery total losses at 35%, though it should be improved via privitization of distribution) we can solve the circular debt problem if shifted to very cheap hydro(rs4) and coal(rs 8) instead of furnace oil of rs 22

If They Are Financing 100 % of The Project As Part of A Whopping $22 Billion Dollar Package on Easy Terms.This One Concession Is Not A Bad Price to Pay.When Soviets Gave Loan for Pakistan Steel Mill Did They Intend For Us to Use The Money For "International Competitive Bidding".No The Contract For That Was To Go To Tiajproexport.Same Is The case With Heavy Mechanical Complex China Gave A 20 Year Soft Loan For That Project But The Contract Went To Chinese.


If We Go By Your Formula My Great Grandchildren Will Get Married But Diamer Bhasha Dam Will Still Not Be Made.We Shouls Just Do This To World Bank and IFIs

So Trust Me Just Give It To The Chinese.Besides Agar Wo Itna De Rahe Hain To Itna To Unka Haq Banta Hai

and i agree with you but they are not EASY terms they will get a good huge profits that would benefit us ofcourse too
but govt will obviously first try to get the better option i.e funding via asian,world bank and supplier credit
currently the reason it cant is INDIA political strings

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

in summary it was all about cost..even till early 2000s when oil was cheap and hydro was major input we didnt had circular debt, though alot of IPPs were working and very high electric theft at that time
we also didnt had major subsidies in this area
when brotha came into production, it did helped in the mix around 2002.
real problem started in 2005 after increase in depend, oil prices and lack of gas for the power plants that had to be shifted on furnace oil

what i wanted to say that even if we maintain the current theft ratio (82% recovery total losses at 35%, though it should be improved via privitization of distribution) we can solve the circular debt problem if shifted to very cheap hydro(rs4) and coal(rs 8) instead of furnace oil of rs 22

Recovery has been improved to 86% as of 2014.