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Govt green-lights three CPEC projects at 23% higher cost

So 4 billion USD for 400 kms highway. That is 10 million dollars per km. India makes 4 lanes highways at 2 million dollars per km.
Yes but your lanes turn into dirt within one month. Our infrastructure is taken very serious by the government, its the only thing they are good at. Roads are decorated by beautiful flowers and trees on its side, millions are spent in raising highway patrols, massive rest houses, mosques and ect... are built, walking over passes are built, and much more.

Wow, comparing space research, building fighter jets with building roads and highways.
First start investing in your space research or a jet engine project or start building your own warships, then you will know what cost overruns actually means.

If you really want to compare infrastructure projects in India and that of Pakistan, just compare the Delhi metro project to your metro 'BUS' (which is actually nothing but BRTS in India). Compare the cost incurred in the projects.
Honestly, we have no use for "space research" or "metros". We do what we need to do - and road infrastructure here is far superior than India's. First build toilets for the 60% of India's population who defecate on the ground before you start chest thumping about your supa powa India.

Chinese companies make roads at USD 1 million per km in Uganda as compared to USD 10 million per km in Pakistan. Plane loot going on by Chinese in Pakistan.

Chinese firms lower road construction rates - National
No looting going on, highways in Uganda are shit compared to Pakistan's highways.
 
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Nothing unusual. Corruption and greed on both ends make for a grand but utter worthless public spending. Don't remember the exact details but similar thing happened in Bangladesh awhile ago. The government approved a plan drafted by an MP that would collaborate with a Chinese company over a less expensive plan by our local BUET engineers. The plan by BUET would cost only 600 million taka whereas the approved plan would cost 3 billion taka. Worthless scums these politicians! :angry:
 
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There is NO project in the Indian history that was done on budget. The figure you are quoting me, has NO fukking relevance to the scope of work on CPEC. Nor do you have the contract to do a real comparison. A 1 KM built around an ocean would cost significantly different than a land route on a flat land like you find in Punjab. Similarly, the same 1KM would cost you significantly higher in Ladakh, go ask your IA, they'll tell you how many hundreds of millions extra they've paid (both in bribes and due to real issues).

Go take your propaganda and sorry as*s elsewhere. Next time you post utter crap, you should know there are people who have a lot of experience around these things on here and they'll call your bullshiit lying and propaganda out. Go hug your mother or dad and cry on their lap. This place has harsh mean people like me, who call bullshiit out and will hurt your little feelings :rofl: :cheers:

Plz read about Delhi metro & numerous other examples.jis cheez ke bare mein pata nahi hota toh uske bare mein nahi bolte
 
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Chinese companies make roads at USD 1 million per km in Uganda as compared to USD 10 million per km in Pakistan. Plane loot going on by Chinese in Pakistan.

Chinese firms lower road construction rates - National

gentleman if you look closely it says multan sukkur motorway, so in plain english it is a highway of international standards rather than just a plain urban road. So if you want to compare it that than do it with your yamuna or delhi jaipur expressway.
 
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Between Multan & Sukkur there are flat lands. First learn geography of Pakistan.


Really? Someone said it right, never argue with stupids as it'll never stop!!!! Let me ask you, when you were doing your "comparisons"....what grade of concrete, metal rings (ferrous thickness), iron spacers, were you planning on using? What was the ratio of concrete mixture and components?

How much weight your comparison from India was to withstand in the next ten years, compared to what CPEC is building. While you list out the above for your Indian comparison, list out the CPEC specs too so we can see them side by side to understand how you think India gets it done cheaper (which, you've never built anything cheap in your entire past two decades, there is actual cost and plus 100% addition of bribes, from a street supervisor to Modi's offices and IA's generals).

So for now, list CPEC specs and Indian specs so we can see the quality and what you understand. I can make claims to like "if India elected me as a PM, I can take it above China in less than three years and everyone in India will be making over $ 80K a year, beating the US average income". Now by making this statement, do you think I have ANY clue about Indian labor salaries that I am trying to "increase" ?......hell no.

Please entertain us and provide the specs for CPEC and Indian proposals so ALL the readers can see how "gifted" India is on paper through internet warriors like you, when internally, every big project takes many more years and 100% or more additional cost in India!!

Plz read about Delhi metro & numerous other examples.

What about Delhi metro? How about you post facts instead of making "statements" like you are the foreign minister of India. I just asked your cousin above, to list out certain specs. If you guys can provide those, I have 0 ego, I'll apologize and will leave the thread.

Put up the Delhi metro's program review from inception to completion and contracts. Let's audit those and see what actually happened :cheers:. Remember, numbers don't lie :azn:

But provide facts, not fart. If you want to fart, do it in your house, when you do it online, the entire world is connected through the internet and the whole globe stinks :rofl: :close_tema:

gentleman if you look closely it says multan sukkur motorway, so in plain english it is a highway of international standards rather than just a plain urban road. So if you want to compare it that than do it with your yamuna or delhi jaipur expressway.

Thank you!!! That's what I told the first fool who got into this argument!!!!! I told him specifically that the ONLY comparison is the new highways constructed around Delhi and a couple in Bangalore. But if Indian members start to listen, we can ALL have a much nicer experience on here. But instead, they'd rather do propaganda, lie about facts and then turn a whole thread into a farting context!!

Pakistan itself has constructed roads and highways for a wide range of cost/km/lane....

This is entirely a commissions thing. This is nothing new. that creature is a pml-n paid troll....

Pakistan itself can't build a motor cycle 100% made in Pakistan, let alone "constructing" highways with these standards!!!! Truth be told.

The M series started from Australia, South Korea and others. The maintenance at some point got transferred to a couple of Pakistani companies. I actually know the CEO's of two companies personally as I've tried to do business with them (Habib construction and IKAN engineering).

This is your country's opportunity to join the 21st century without having the internal capability to do so. You should be thankful to people who worked hard to bring such insanely large investments (into a country that was being declared a failed state and was going to be bankrupt just three years ago).

Today, you have precisely $ 20.75 billion in your savings account with over $ 60 billion worth of large projects (getting audited by international companies). So instead of appreciating the fact that 60 years of darkness is ending in Pakistan, people your kind, will still complain about the commission and all. You embarrass your own country in-front of others.
 
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Really? Someone said it right, never argue with stupids as it'll never stop!!!! Let me ask you, when you were doing your "comparisons"....what grade of concrete, metal rings (ferrous thickness), iron spacers, were you planning on using? What was the ratio of concrete mixture and components?

How much weight your comparison from India was to withstand in the next ten years, compared to what CPEC is building. While you list out the above for your Indian comparison, list out the CPEC specs too so we can see them side by side to understand how you think India gets it done cheaper (which, you've never built anything cheap in your entire past two decades, there is actual cost and plus 100% addition of bribes, from a street supervisor to Modi's offices and IA's generals).

So for now, list CPEC specs and Indian specs so we can see the quality and what you understand. I can make claims to like "if India elected me as a PM, I can take it above China in less than three years and everyone in India will be making over $ 80K a year, beating the US average income". Now by making this statement, do you think I have ANY clue about Indian labor salaries that I am trying to "increase" hell no.

Please entertain us and provide the specs for CPEC and Indian proposals so ALL the readers can see how "gifted" India is on paper through internet warriors like you, when internally, every big project takes many more years and 100% or more additional cost in India!!



What about Delhi metri? How about you post facts instead of making "statements" like you are the foreign minister of India. I just asked your cousin above, to list out certain specs. If you guys can provide those, I have 0 ego, I'll apologize and will leave the thread.

Put up the Delhi metro's program review from inception to completion and contracts. Let's audit those and see what actually happened :cheers:. Remember, numbers don't lie :azn:

But provide facts, not fart. If you want to fart, do it in your house, when you do it online, the entire world is connected through the internet, the whole globe stinks :rofl: :close_tema:



Thank you!!! That's what I told the first fool who got into this argument!!!!! I told him specifically that the ONLY comparison is the new highways constructed around Delhi and a couple in Bangalore. But if Indian members start to listen, we can ALL have a much nicer experience on here. But instead, they'd rather do propaganda, lie about facts and then turn a whole thread into a farting context!!



Pakistan itself can't build a motor cycle 100% made in Pakistan, let alone "constructing" highways with these standards!!!! Truth be told.

The M series started from Australia, South Korea and others. The maintenance at some point got transferred to a couple of Pakistani companies. I actually know the CEO's of two companies personally as I've tried to do business with them (Habib construction and IKAN engineering).

This is your country's opportunity to join the 21st century without having the internal capability to do so. You should be thankful to the people who worked hard to bring such insanely large investment into a country that was being declared a failed state and was going to be bankrupt just three years ago. Today, you have precisely $ 20.75 billion in your savings account with over $ 60 billion worth of large projects (getting audited by international companies). So instead of appreciating the fact that 60 years of darkness is ending in Pakistan, people your kind, will still complain about the commission and all. You embarrass your own country in-front of others.

Now that is the best verbal " reach back like a pimp an slap the Ho!!" I have read on this forum in a while :lol::lol:
 
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Pakistan itself can't build a motor cycle 100% made in Pakistan, let alone "constructing" highways with these standards!!!! Truth be told.

What I meant by that was that highway/road construction projects within the country have been done at varying rates and this $10m/km is a very high rate.

And it's not about the standards, foreign companies are chosen because they are readily willing to wire commissions to the big guy's accounts abroad. A local firm could get investigated and get into alot of trouble. Also, a local firm would get paid in ruppees, not dollars and getting that abroad after converting to dollars in large amounts is very difficult.

The M series started from Australia, South Korea and others. The maintenance at some point got transferred to a couple of Pakistani companies. I actually know the CEO's of two companies personally as I've tried to do business with them (Habib construction and IKAN engineering).

Yes you tried. Congratulations.

This is your country's opportunity to join the 21st century without having the internal capability to do so. You should be thankful to the people who worked hard to bring such insanely large investment into a country that was being declared a failed state and was going to be bankrupt just three years ago. Today, you have precisely $ 20.75 billion in your savings account with over $ 60 billion worth of large projects (getting audited by international companies). So instead of appreciating the fact that 60 years of darkness is ending in Pakistan, people your kind, will still complain about the commission and all. You embarrass your own country in-front of others.

Pakistan today is in greater debt than ever.

And no, Pakistan was not going to be bankrupt at any point. That is complete non-sense.
 
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Corruption is a fact of life in developing and emerging countries. At the end of the day, you're better off having proper infrastructure than driving on unpaved roads. Bandar "Bush" had a pretty interesting view of corruption.
 
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Really? Someone said it right, never argue with stupids as it'll never stop!!!! Let me ask you, when you were doing your "comparisons"....what grade of concrete, metal rings (ferrous thickness), iron spacers, were you planning on using? What was the ratio of concrete mixture and components?

How much weight your comparison from India was to withstand in the next ten years, compared to what CPEC is building. While you list out the above for your Indian comparison, list out the CPEC specs too so we can see them side by side to understand how you think India gets it done cheaper (which, you've never built anything cheap in your entire past two decades, there is actual cost and plus 100% addition of bribes, from a street supervisor to Modi's offices and IA's generals).

So for now, list CPEC specs and Indian specs so we can see the quality and what you understand. I can make claims to like "if India elected me as a PM, I can take it above China in less than three years and everyone in India will be making over $ 80K a year, beating the US average income". Now by making this statement, do you think I have ANY clue about Indian labor salaries that I am trying to "increase" hell no.

Please entertain us and provide the specs for CPEC and Indian proposals so ALL the readers can see how "gifted" India is on paper through internet warriors like you, when internally, every big project takes many more years and 100% or more additional cost in India!!



What about Delhi metri? How about you post facts instead of making "statements" like you are the foreign minister of India. I just asked your cousin above, to list out certain specs. If you guys can provide those, I have 0 ego, I'll apologize and will leave the thread.

Put up the Delhi metro's program review from inception to completion and contracts. Let's audit those and see what actually happened :cheers:. Remember, numbers don't lie :azn:

But provide facts, not fart. If you want to fart, do it in your house, when you do it online, the entire world is connected through the internet, the whole globe stinks :rofl: :close_tema:



Thank you!!! That's what I told the first fool who got into this argument!!!!! I told him specifically that the ONLY comparison is the new highways constructed around Delhi and a couple in Bangalore. But if Indian members start to listen, we can ALL have a much nicer experience on here. But instead, they'd rather do propaganda, lie about facts and then turn a whole thread into a farting context!!



Pakistan itself can't build a motor cycle 100% made in Pakistan, let alone "constructing" highways with these standards!!!! Truth be told.

The M series started from Australia, South Korea and others. The maintenance at some point got transferred to a couple of Pakistani companies. I actually know the CEO's of two companies personally as I've tried to do business with them (Habib construction and IKAN engineering).

This is your country's opportunity to join the 21st century without having the internal capability to do so. You should be thankful to people who worked hard to bring such insanely large investments (into a country that was being declared a failed state and was going to be bankrupt just three years ago).

Today, you have precisely $ 20.75 billion in your savings account with over $ 60 billion worth of large projects (getting audited by international companies). So instead of appreciating the fact that 60 years of darkness is ending in Pakistan, people your kind, will still complain about the commission and all. You embarrass your own country in-front of others.


Delhi Metro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check History
 
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What I meant by that was that highway/road construction projects within the country have been done at varying rates and this $10m/km is a very high rate.

And it's not about the standards, foreign companies are chosen because they are readily willing to wire commissions to the big guy's accounts abroad. A local firm could get investigated and get into alot of trouble. Also, a local firm would get paid in ruppees, not dollars and getting that abroad after converting to dollars in large amounts is very difficult.

Pakistan today is in greater debt than ever.And no, Pakistan was not going to be bankrupt at any point. That is complete non-sense.

You can continue with your low quality posts, and make your country look bad, which includes you too. I, on the other hand, will state the facts and will move on from the topic.

If you think this part is being done "at a much higher rate"...it makes no sense. If there was corruption involved and your conspiracy theories are true, using common sense it makes no sense. Why have this ONE project show such a massive change that everyone will question??? When, if someone really wanted to do "commission", etc, the project is so big, they would've put a few millions here and there on different project and no one would've questioned a "small change" and everything would be hidden as a few millions here and there would combined produced the same large number.
So, think about it, why make it such a massive number? When you know there are conspiracy theorists (like you and the IK clan) out there, who'll start screaming "corruption"????

Simple answer? There is no corruption, so they didn't mind "announcing" a big change to the cost. No one wants to be so open about $ 500 million that they can go to the jail and their next generations will hear the same thing that your NS and SS did $ 500 millions worth of corruption (specially when they could've easily hid it among many projects)?

In today's environment, such thing would be political suicide. No one would do it unless they are Zardari. NS, the amount of work they put into bringing in over $ 60 billion dollars worth of investments from China, Russia, the US, etc, would never do it. This is their time in making history and legacy. When you are after a legacy, you let go of the corruption.
Again, I am NO NS fan, but I'll speak the truth. I am more than sure that they've all done stuff before. But this time around, they aren't. Otherwise the number of issues NS has dealt with, he would've been out otherwise, had he given a chance to his opponents in terms of corruption, etc.

On debt, yes, Pakistan is and should be in debt. When the military rulers sat on their power seats for 6 decades, and no one did anything for the people, and all of a sudden, one system is being expected to out perform 70 years worth of crap, you would be under debt. Everything requires money. You people don't even pay taxes, how do you expect anyone to build roads, hospitals, colleges, police / security, etc??? The only way is to bring in investments and take loans to broaden your economy by expanding infrastructure. The millions of jobs being created now, are all within the government's radar so naturally the tax base will expand.

US had over a trillion dollars worth of debt just from China a couple of years ago. India also has a huge debt to GDP ratio. But the economies are running and that debt can easily be paid off. Same applies to Pakistan.
If I listen to people like you, what you are suggesting is, don't borrow or bring in investment. Let's stay in the darkness. If someone tried to do something better for the people, we'll call it "commission and corruption" :hitwall: :angel: :tdown:. The people of Pakistan deserve a peaceful, growing, terrorism free country, filled with opportunity. Some people like you, should move out and go live in some other place where nothing will get improved. I have a list of countries where you might like it :enjoy:
 
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How many of you people on here has ever managed a billion dollar program??

In the case above, on a 3 billion project, 20% contingency would be $ 600 million. Here, they are going over $ 550 million (still within 20%). So there is NO issue on here. In fact, a program this massive that's designed to be spread across an entire nation, with so much land routes, potential future natural issues (floods, earth quakes, material shortages, etc, etc) which will all cause work to be stopped on certain parts temporarily and happens to EVERY project, expect a $ 30% increase to majority of the project.

Here's how programs like these work. Just so everyone reading understands the mechanics. I see Indians doing propaganda and Pakistanis, as always playing defense without a need, as majority just don't know or care to understand how these things work. Before the Indian members bit*ch about these, take a look at your own project overruns, the ISRO, DRDO, the LEAST Combat Aircraft (LCA), acquisition of Rafale, ALL have cost over runs or time overruns and corruption involved. But they won't talk about those!!!!

Our Pakistani members will quickly raise the "corruption flag" quickly, out of paranoia and "conspiracy theories" than care to understand a very serious Mathematical and Scientific process that goes into these programs for estimation. And they won't care to realize that there are international auditing companies auditing ALL projects done by the government and any wrong doing will come out. But here's how a typical complex, international program works

1) Gov't of Pakistan needs to revise the CPEC "Project" to CPEC "Program". A Program has MANY projects in it. And these projects, due to their cost and size, are independent so the $ 46 billion was "allocated" for an entire program. What would be built out of that, would be many projects with independent budgets, etc.

2) When someone announces a program or a project, it is merely an "intent" or an "initiation". As no one knows how much it would cost. The definition of a "project" is a unique effort, resulting in producing a unique deliverable (road, plane, car, etc), which is a brand new end product. Which means, it will have its own budget.

3) At the time of initiating an investment, there is some "due diligence" that's done. In other words, I sign a contract with Mayor Joe in a City to build a highway with my investment. Some of my engineers and proposal experts write up the contract and use our previous projects as an example. Mayor Joe needs this completed in "X" amount of time and I have 2 months to complete my "estimates". We visit the site and check it out a few times. We see a lot of in-usable land, or mountains we'd have to cut through, etc, and to understand the entire real cost, it would take "x" months, which would push the project BEYOND its expected delivery date.

So we make exceptions and add assumptions to the contract that if there are 10 KM worth of mountain cutting, it would me "x" dollars, more than that, would be "y" dollars as we don't know. So with these "assumptions", the project moves forward WITH money added to the budget as a "contingency" (usually 20% of the cost of the project, to cover these "unknowns" which didn't exist before, or couldn't be estimated correctly like the additional mountain cutting example I provided above).

We start the project and re-did our estimates (now doing the work, called "actual") as we had more time beyond just an "intention", and by being on the ground, or being on the ground for another project, we learned there is 50 miles of the mountain cutting involved (just making up an example).

So in this case, we'll revise our estimates and will go talk to Mayor Joe. AS LONG AS, we don't go over the contingency, we should be good (contingency is 20% allocated JUST to meet these issues of "intentional estimates" vs. the actual estimates). This situation in this article represents a less than 20% SD and the contingency will cover it. Only a small amendment is needed by two sponsors. Nothing else as it would be a part of the contract to use the contingency if needed. In 98% of the small to medium projects, the contingency is used. On 100% big projects, the contingency is used.

These kind of programs only take place ONCE in a nation's history and set her up for success for centuries. Everything else is an add on project for later. Like Pakistan's GT Road was built by the British centuries ago, resulting in connecting an entire country. The CPEC program is MUCH bigger than that.



Read my post above. Instead of taking the bait, learn how these programs actually work. People you are responding to, have hundreds of millions of dollars worth of corruption inside their home country on EVERY project. But instead of bringing that out, they'll bit*ch about everything you guys are doing, and you guys will make stupid statements and will agree to stuff you should really learn before commenting!!



1) Indian contractors can NEVER build something within budget as everyone gets a share. I can write a million examples on here, take a look at DRDO, ISRO, Dams, Highway construction and other projects, your leaders "conveniently" go over by MANY hundred millions (Least Combat Aircraft sounds familiar as an example)??

2) PLEASE, don't compare the Indian infrastructure to what's being built here. The only comparison is either some highways around Delhi, or new construction in Bangalore. The remainder of India's infrastructure isn't at this level. Hell, you guys don't have a comparison to Pakistan's M1, M2 system, with the exception of a few recently built highways.

When this gets built here, you'll see it on youtube and pictures on PDF, it would be amazing to see. In fact, take a look at the first few projects like Metro-Bus, Orangle line, etc. You can clearly see the quality and the beauty emphasis on these projects.

@MadDog : I just saw your comment on the other post. Thought I'd tag you on here too.
@MastanKhan : Please see the thread and provide some "Car Salesman" opinion, I know you've seen all this work in the US :)
@Oscar: you've seen many such infrastructure projects in the US. Any insight on the topic?


Whoaaaaa........obviously an economics or MBNA graduate. You have excellent English writing skills. Can safely assume you are highly educated.
 
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Whoaaaaa........obviously an economics or MBNA graduate. You have excellent English writing skills. Can safely assume you are highly educated.

Thank you. Yes, I am very highly educated (Thank God for being in the USA :usflag:), not sure what and where I would be, if I was a citizen of some other country

What's an MBNA?


That's it? You'll quote me to WIKI PEDIA???? I can create a page on Wiki showing me the next American president, or a cousin of Donald Trump!!!! Wiki is managed and updated by people and has no real value outside of a "reference as a reader". Anyone can create a page on there saying whatever they like to!!

The discussion we are having is entirely focused on Civil Engineering practices...? I didn't ask for an article to "read about" Delhi metro. I asked for you to put the contract out, put the project plans out, and cost disbursements. Let's audit it, won't take me too long and I'll tell you how the project started, where it ended and how much money was spent vs. budgeted. All this free of charge, otherwise, if you want me to do this as a professional, it'll cost you $ 400.00 an hour and a typical audit like this, cost about $ 50K :enjoy:

And for a CPEC comparison, do post the Indian proposals, the CPEC proposal, the material composition (Iron, Concrete, Steel Heavy Machines, Material's Acquisition and Management Cost, type of Civil engineering techniques being used, weight bearing feasibility reports, etc, etc. When you post all this, then I can see how a Delhi metro would compare to CPEC or a highway in India compared to the CPEC (as you said India can build it much cheaper).

You are continuing to make yourself look like a fool, just FYI!!
 
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Now that is the best verbal " reach back like a pimp an slap the Ho!!" I have read on this forum in a while :lol::lol:
Thank you. Yes, I am very highly educated (Thank God for being in the USA :usflag:), not sure what and where I would be, if I was a citizen of some other country

What's an MBNA?



That's it? You'll quote me to WIKI PEDIA???? I can create a page on Wiki showing me the next American president, or a cousin of Donald Trump!!!! Wiki is managed and updated by people and has no real value outside of a "reference as a reader". Anyone can create a page on there saying whatever they like to!!

The discussion we are having is entirely focused on Civil Engineering practices...? I didn't ask for an article to "read about" Delhi metro. I asked for you to put the contract out, put the project plans out, and cost disbursements. Let's audit it, won't take me too long and I'll tell you how the project started, where it ended and how much money was spent vs. budgeted. All this free of charge, otherwise, if you want me to do this as a professional, it'll cost you $ 400.00 an hour and a typical audit like this, cost about $ 50K :enjoy:

And for a CPEC comparison, do post the Indian proposals, the CPEC proposal, the material composition (Iron, Concrete, Steel Heavy Machines, Material's Acquisition and Management Cost, type of Civil engineering techniques being used, weight bearing feasibility reports, etc, etc. When you post all this, then I can see how a Delhi metro would compare to CPEC or a highway in India compared to the CPEC (as you said India can build it much cheaper).

You are continuing to make yourself look like a fool, just FYI!!


Lol not MBNA but MBA. MBNA is a highly sought after credit card in the UK.......lol
 
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