Gokdogan beyond visual range air to air missile succes test

[blain2]

You can not shoot a fighter from 100km or 150km far away thats a mythology, specially stealth is coming. Undetected sneaking to your enemy is the future, you people live in the past.

You do realize your entire fleet is non-stealth? The same for us and our adversaries. So we are not talking about hypothetical scenarios, rather what we face today and over the next decade at least in terms of the threat from the fleet of our non-stealth adversary. This goes for Pakistan and for Turkey alike. As such you have to think short, medium and long term.

Secondly, the issue is not always of being able to shoot down the adversary. We are talking counter air operations and denial of freedom to operate and air superiority here. If we get the first shot off, the adversary is already taking counter-measures, evading our approaching missiles which affects their offensive operations against us. There are a lot of benefits to having this first-shot capability at extended stand-off ranges. Again, I say this based on what we have seen happen in the very recent past in reality and not just some theoretical stuff.

 

[Oublious]

Yes you can and has been proven in tests and by inference in combat too. The Phoenix was killing missile sized drones at 60kms in the late 1970s.
When the AMRAAM came out the idea of guaranteed kills at 30- 40km seemed unproven until it was.

Stealth isn’t invisibility, it’s making it difficult to see sooner.

Stealth reduces the range at which you can shoot because you cannot see the target or get a good lock on it sooner, but it doesn’t reduce the impact of a longer ranged system because a missile capable of a Kill probability of 80% at 100km will likely have a kill probability of 95% at 40km or more.

Moreover, how many countries have stealth?
F-35 operators, Russia(token), China and then Turkey whenever it has its operational.

Even by 2040 apart from the USAF stealth aircraft will not represent the majority of a combat fleet for most countries. Long range BVR sniping will be the name of the game

Old slow drone maybe but not a fighter, specially modern fighters with strong EW systems you can not lock a target from max distance. You will use your radar and your enemy will now you, thats how air to air works. Before you fire your missile your enemy will go to defence or before going defence he will shoot a missile to you. Stealth is sneaking close to your enemey and in 50km firing your missile, thats is the future. Before they notice you and going to defence to late.

A air defence system shooting a fighter with max distance, did you ever see it confirmed?

Do realize your entire fleet is non-stealth. The same for us and our adversaries. So we are not talking about hypothetical scenarios, rather what we face today in terms of the threat from the fleet of our non-stealth adversary. This goes for Pakistan and for Turkey.

You have to think about both the current and future threats.

You will use that fleet for air to ground operations or surveilliance, stealth will take it over. With drone or fighter, the countries who works on it will have a say in geopolitics. I give it 5 years and that will happen...

 

[FuturePAF]

Wtf do you people have with range? The important what makes these missiles is sensor, GOKHAN will have two way data-link. Meteor does not have that, what means you can only direct the missile to a target. With two DATA-LINK AWACS or another weapon system can guide the missile maybe MILGEM? Or a TB2 if they put a AESA radar in the future. Range is absolute in modern warfare, i never saw Americans talking about range. THey lack with range but they are superior with sensor technology.

They want to hit a air to air missile with air to air missile. They are working on active seeker with MMW technology so they can hit a bullet with bullet in the sky. GOKDOGAN is superior when it comes to sensor technology against old METEOR missile. Imagine a F16 fires GOKDAGAN with no radar but 50km further a KizilElma is targeting the missile. Thats is superior technology and not ooooo what is the range of the missile....




Turkish...

Range, sensors and tactics are all important. A larger NEZ for instance, allows for different tactics then a smaller one, when the opponent, even with an “inferior” sensor laden missile still has the energy to limit what tactics you can employ with your superior sensor laden missile.

 

[Princeps Senatus]

@Oublious is right, it's a very common misconception that BVR missiles are fired at their "max" ranges, they very rarely are.

The longest recorded AMRAAM kill is only 45 km, despite the missile having a on paper range more than twice that. I am not including tests here because they are done under optimal conditions and are not relevant here.

In the real world combination of ROEs, ECM and various other factors exist

 

[ESAx]

Oublious, range gives "first shot" options. This is a huge thing in BVR combat. Given that we have had very recent, actual combat experience in BVR combat, the first shot option is not to be taken lightly. You want your pilots to shoot and scoot (fire and forget from ranges that your adversary does not enjoy) even before your adversary sees you and gets a shot off.

What about if Turkish platform has far smaller RCS and carry air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability ?

Moreover, how many countries have stealth?
F-35 operators, Russia(token), China and then Turkey whenever it has its operational.

Even by 2040 apart from the USAF stealth aircraft will not represent the majority of a combat fleet for most countries. Long range BVR sniping will be the name of the game

KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet is coming for 2025

in BVR combat , stealth KIZILELMA will advantage against Rafale , Eurofighter, SU-35 , F-15 , F-16. because of 4th gen Fighter Jets with bigger RCS

If first KIZILELMA detect the enemy Fighter Jets then press the kill button and game over

 

[Princeps Senatus]

Some members brought up the 2019 India Pakistan skirmish. But even then from what I have heard both sides got dangerously close to each other before being able to fire the first shot. Indians use the "range" excuse to justify their failure but in reality it was not the range of the missile stopping them but rather the fact that they were jammed and couldn't get a lock.

The ballistic range of a BVR missile is important but only up to a certain point after that maneuvering capability and seeker performance (ECCM capability and whatnot) are more important

you could make a giant rocket with a range of 1000 km if you wanted but it wouldn't be worth anything if you can't guide it to the target

 

[PakAlp]

Some members brought up the 2019 India Pakistan skirmish. But even then from what I have heard both sides got dangerously close to each other before being able to fire the first shot. Indians use the "range" excuse to justify their failure but in reality it was not the range of the missile stopping them but rather the fact that they were jammed and couldn't get a lock.

The ballistic range of a BVR missile is important but only up to a certain point after that maneuvering capability and seeker performance (ECCM capability and whatnot) are more important

you could make a giant rocket with a range of 1000 km if you wanted but it wouldn't be worth anything if you can't guide it to the target

Yes the combat was very close. Within 50km range, I would say even within 40km.

If one jet fires missile from 145km and the other jet is 130km away, by the time missile is within the other plane radar, is it not possible for the jet to fly away or avoid it because the pilot has seen the missile approaching on the radar. The plane is also flying at a fast speed and not stationary, if plane was within 30km and missile is fast approaching then it would be difficult but what about when a missile is 100km away and approaching.

 

[drmeson]

@Oublious is right, it's a very common misconception that BVR missiles are fired at their "max" ranges, they very rarely are.

The longest recorded AMRAAM kill is only 45 km, despite the missile having a on paper range more than twice that. I am not including tests here because they are done under optimal conditions and are not relevant here.

In the real world combination of ROEs, ECM and various other factors exist

In the Iran Iraq war, F-14A fired AIM-54 sometimes at max distance to rattle the enemy from their interception course. An enemy deploying ECM, Chaff/flares, maneuvers etc to run away from in coming salvo BVR missiles is easier to deal with an unthreatened one. Even if AIM-54 did not score itself it made enemy fighters scared or easy for AIM-7E2 +AIM-9P/J to score a hit. IRIAF and USAF trained on AIM-54 based LRBVR attacks against soviet threats like MIG-25. Even at that time it was considered more of a tactical weapon that can serve as a weapon and a threat both.

So BVR at their max ranges are not just killers, they are deterrents and tactical tools as well. Using these rattling techniques, some of the IRIAF pilots became Ace of Aces with top three sharing 32 kills among them against Mirage F1EQ, MIG-25ER/PD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Iranian_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war

Such is the importance of these tactics that while we do have TVC LORADS and other BVR missiles like R-27ER1 IRIAF still felt the need to have our own Fakour-90 LRBVR with 150 KM range from F-14AM. Another version is being developed with 200 KM range with ARH, ECM by same company. The plan is to fire the Salvo at intruders to make them either run back linearly so that Ambush mobile LORADS can hunt them easily or they loose their course and are attacked by other aircrafts in vicinity.

 

[blain2]

What about if Turkish platform has far smaller RCS and carry air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability ?

All the better, but this is a future roadmap possibility. What if there is a shooting war over Aegean Sea or over Kashmir tomorrow for you and us? We have to have better standoff attack options on our existing, non-stealth platforms.

You will use that fleet for air to ground operations or surveilliance, stealth will take it over. With drone or fighter, the countries who works on it will have a say in geopolitics. I give it 5 years and that will happen...

See my post above. What if there is a shooting war in the near term? All fine to talk about stealth when we may have platforms fielded in 5+ years. For now, its non-stealth and here extended stand-off, first-shot capability matters.

 

[ESAx]

All the better, but this is a future roadmap possibility. What if there is a shooting war over Aegean Sea or over Kashmir tomorrow for you and us? We have to have better standoff attack options on our existing, non-stealth platforms.

Türkiye has S400 Air Defense Systems to block Aegean Sea against Greek Rafales
144 S400 Missiles against 24 Rafale Fighter Jets

and Turkish F-16s armed with AIM-120C7 air to air missiles
Turkish Air Force Boeing E-7T AEWC's PESA Radar can detect Rafale or F-16V from 300+ km away and to guide the AIM-120C7 air to air missiles by link-16 in BVR Combat


btw stealth KIZILELMA will enter service in 2025 , 65km GOKDOGAN air to air missile enter service in 2022 to replace old AIM-120A and 120Bs

100km GOKDOGAN-ER air to air missile is on the way

in 2-3 years stealth KIZILELMA and 100km GOKDOGAN-ER air to air missile will be lethal combination for BVR combat

 

[SQ8]

Old slow drone maybe but not a fighter, specially modern fighters with strong EW systems you can not lock a target from max distance. You will use your radar and your enemy will now you, thats how air to air works. Before you fire your missile your enemy will go to defence or before going defence he will shoot a missile to you. Stealth is sneaking close to your enemey and in 50km firing your missile, thats is the future. Before they notice you and going to defence to late.

A air defence system shooting a fighter with max distance, did you ever see it confirmed?




You will use that fleet for air to ground operations or surveilliance, stealth will take it over. With drone or fighter, the countries who works on it will have a say in geopolitics. I give it 5 years and that will happen...

You are confusing the ability to lock with the ability to sustain energy from a missile. Energy needed to maneuver to guarantee a kill.

A missile with a 60 second motor burn time will sustain more energy than a 30 second one.
Whether you launch the 60 second missile at 145km or use it at 40km is up to the engagement scenario.

Against jamming you can still get to the point where your radar power will burn through eventually. That could be at 30km but it could also be at 80km.. so what if your radar burns through but you only have a 60km missile but your enemy has a 120km one? You’re going to die..

Also, you still are using stealth as the leg to stand on when even in 2040 the primary threat matrix will be 60% 4th to 4.5 gen aircraft

What about if Turkish platform has far smaller RCS and carry air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability ?





KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet is coming for 2025

in BVR combat , stealth KIZILELMA will advantage against Rafale , Eurofighter, SU-35 , F-15 , F-16. because of 4th gen Fighter Jets with bigger RCS

If first KIZILELMA detect the enemy Fighter Jets then press the kill button and game over

That doesn’t mean suddenly TuAF will have 200 Kizelelma to replace everything.
And no that isn’t a certain situation - the enemy is already investing in counter UAV solutions and tactics which will degrade performance - regardless of how your chest swells up with patriotism; science sees it as irrelevant

 

[ESAx]

but you only have a 60km missile but your enemy has a 120km one? You’re going to die..

Turkish F-16s armed with 120 km AIM-120C7

65 km GOKDOGAN
100+ km GOKDOGAN-ER
also GOKHAN ramjet powered long range air to air missile under development

if Greek Rafale armed with METEOR , then Turkiye has S400 Air Defense Systems to block Rafales


The most important thing is platform if using stealth technology in BVR combat
KIZILELMA unmanned stealth Fighter Jet will detect Rafale , before Rafale detect stealth KIZILEMA and game over in BVR combat

 

[ESAx]

That doesn’t mean suddenly TuAF will have 200 Kizelelma to replace everything.
And no that isn’t a certain situation - the enemy is already investing in counter UAV solutions and tactics which will degrade performance - regardless of how your chest swells up with patriotism; science sees it as irrelevant

200 KIZILELMA ? Greece buys only 24 Rafales
No need to produce 200 KIZILELMA , even 20 will be enough

Do you think Turks are sleeping ? even no need BVR combat
144 S400 Missiles can block 24 Rafales ... If the S400 locks the Radar on Rafale, the Greek pilot starts to tremble with fear.



and KIZILELMA is not an UAV , but turbofan engined supersonic speed unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to carry AESA Radar and air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability in BVR combat


İts not patriotism but state of the art weapon . science and technology

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

200 KIZILELMA ? Greece buys only 24 Rafales
No need to produce 200 KIZILELMA , even 20 will be enough

Do you think Turks are sleeping ?
even 192 S400 Missiles can block 24 Rafales ...


and KIZILELMA is not an UAV , but turbofan engined supersonic speed unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to carry AESA Radar and air to air missiles in the internal weapon stations for stealth flight capability in BVR combat


İts not patriotism but state of the art weapon . science and technology
View attachment 861172

Seeing is believing.....

Let KIZILELMA do it's job then the folks will believe in it like the way they they do now for TB2s. However, the advantage goes to the folks with imagination for it's more important than knowledge...

By the by, Selchuk Bayraktar has mentioned in an interview what if he fields 10 KIZILELMAs against an F-35? It means it'll be mass produced with indigenous engines for it has no pilot training cost! TEI has already shown a mock-up augmented turbo-fan engine suitable for KIZILELMAs........

 

[ESAx]

Seeing is believing.....

Let KIZILELMA do it's job then the folks will believe in it like the way they they do now for TB2s. However, the advantage goes to the folks with imagination for it's more important than knowledge...

Turkiye sells TB-2s like a hot cake , because combat proven and high success


When KIZILELMA is on the market
The world will show interest in Turkiye's unmanned stealth Fighter Jet , not in the F-35

By the by, Selchuk Bayraktar has mentioned in an interview what if he fields 10 KIZILELMAs against an F-35?

We can produce 10 KIZILELMA in price of 1 F-35

İf we lost 4 KIZILELMA , no problem $40 million
on the other hand enemy will lose even 1 F-35 ( $100 million and Pilot )

Also no need American permision for take off
No need maintenance and spare parts from The US
No risk of losing Pilot