Germany May Choose Lockheed’s C-130J Over Airbus’ A400 Transport Aircraft

[Zarvan]

Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules
Germany is planning to buy four to six Lockheed Martin C-130J transport planes instead of Airbus A400 military cargo aircraft due to repeated delays in their delivery.

German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyern signed a declaration of intent in Paris to pool the yet-to-be-acquired Lockheed Martin military transport planes with the same type operated by France, a German defense ministry spokesman was quoted as saying by the Washington Post Tuesday. The French government earlier this year signed a deal to buy the Lockheed plane operated also by the U.S. Air Force and a large number of other military forces. The C-130J purchase should give the German air force certainty that it will have the ability to provide airlift in crisis situations, the spokesman said. The German air force's fleet of Transall cargo planes is aging and in need of replacement. The French and German defense ministries have been anchor members of a consortium of seven countries backing the development and production of Airbus's A400M military cargo plane. The project has suffered repeated technical problems and schedule delays, spurring interest among the two countries to buy extra cargo planes.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...irbus____A400_Transport_Aircraft#.V_UA9ih96hc

 

[Blue Marlin]

lol, they plan to buy 53 and re-sell 13 of them leaving 40. they already have 3
the a400m program is a complete sh!t show. even airbus said they wont do such a program again.
but i dout that. as shareholders and the government of france and germany wont like it.
most likely they will learn from past mistakes

 

[Echo_419]

Lockheed Martin C-130J Super Hercules
Germany is planning to buy four to six Lockheed Martin C-130J transport planes instead of Airbus A400 military cargo aircraft due to repeated delays in their delivery.

German Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyern signed a declaration of intent in Paris to pool the yet-to-be-acquired Lockheed Martin military transport planes with the same type operated by France, a German defense ministry spokesman was quoted as saying by the Washington Post Tuesday. The French government earlier this year signed a deal to buy the Lockheed plane operated also by the U.S. Air Force and a large number of other military forces. The C-130J purchase should give the German air force certainty that it will have the ability to provide airlift in crisis situations, the spokesman said. The German air force's fleet of Transall cargo planes is aging and in need of replacement. The French and German defense ministries have been anchor members of a consortium of seven countries backing the development and production of Airbus's A400M military cargo plane. The project has suffered repeated technical problems and schedule delays, spurring interest among the two countries to buy extra cargo planes.

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17...irbus____A400_Transport_Aircraft#.V_UA9ih96hc

Looks like Airbus fucked up A-400M program @mike2000 is back any comments?

 

[ali_raza]

it is a waste of money they could have just went with american option

Looks like Airbus fucked up A-400M program @mike2000 is back any comments?

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

It seems to be an operational and stop gap decision, for Operation GOA in MALI .

Official Bundeswehr paper informs that A-400 M can land at GOA AB but is not able to taxi to service and logistic facilities at the AB. They are using the operational 50 year old C-160 in MALI.

Es sei vielmehr festgestellt worden, dass der neue, große Transporter nicht alle Fähigkeiten abdecke, die benötigt würden. Dies gelte etwa für den Bundeswehreinsatz im nordmalischen Gao, berichtet die Agentur. Der Airbus A400M könne auf dem Flugplatz von Gao zwar landen, aber er könne „wegen seines Gewichtes“ nicht die Betriebsflächen jenseits der Start- und Landebahn erreichen.
Die Experten erläuterten dies gegenüber Reuters: „Sollte der Transporter einen Defekt haben, würde er den gesamten Flugplatz blockieren.“ Die Bundeswehr fliege Gao daher von der Hauptstadt Bamako aus mit ihren kleinen Transall-Maschinen an.

http://www.bundeswehr-journal.de/2016/ueberbrueckungsloesung-wegen-spaeter-a400m-auslieferung/

 

[Penguin]

Complementary aircraft. Apples and Oranges.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Complementary aircraft. Apples and Oranges.

end of the day its all about requirement. mind you i think the a400m program has been a complete sh!t show from the beginning.
mind you im quiet a fan of the kc-390.

 

[Penguin]

A joint wing with the french using c130Js is a good idea, both as stop-gap and complementary capability to A400

In 2015 the French Air Force ordered 4 Super Hercules to supplement existing capabilities due to the ongoing problems and delayed entry into services of the ordered Airbus A400M, through FMS the French will get 2 C-130J in 2017/2018 and 2 2 KC-130J in 2018/2019 (Helicopter refuelling capability), especially supporting French overseas operations in Africa.

In May 2016 rumours emerged that the German Air Force was considering to buy up to 10 C-130J Hercules to acquire tactical airlift capabilities due to the delayed entry into service of the Airbus A400M (like the French Air Force ordering 4 in 2015) and to supplement the planned Airbus A400M Fleet, based on the size & capabilities of both aircraft.

 

[waz]

Hey I like the A400!
Those dodgy Germans....

 

[Incog_nito]

Why not go for JV with Ukraine?

 

[Penguin]

Why not go for JV with Ukraine?

Both France and Germany operate 160 Transall, which will be replaced by Airbus A400. But while that takes care of strategic lift, it leaves a gap in tactical lift.

Germany and France create joint tactical air transport squadron
Sebastian Schulte, Bonn - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
05 October 2016

France and Germany's defence ministers have agreed to create a joint air transport squadron that will operate Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules aircraft.

The letter of intent (LoI), signed in Paris on 4 October, will see the Franco-German air transport squadron become operational by 2021. France is set to act as the frame nation of the squadron, which accordingly will be stationed in France.

France currently operates 14 C-130 aircraft (seven C-130H and seven C-130H-30 transporters) and has ordered an additional four aircraft (two C-130Js and two KC-130J tanker/transport). Germany doesn't currently operate the C-130 and so is planning to buy between four and six aircraft as its contribution to the joint squadron.

From the German point of view the primary task for the squadron will be non-combatant evacuation operations, especially for German and European nationals in crisis situations. The C-130Js will also close a German capability gap between the NHIndustries NH90 medium transport helicopter and the larger Airbus A400M transport aircraft.

http://www.janes.com/article/64353/germany-and-france-create-joint-tactical-air-transport-squadron

The choice for C-130 is not that surprising given current C-130 users in Europe: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, United Kingdom. With the exception of Austria and Sweden, these are all NATO members. Canada and of course the US also use the C-130. From an interoperability perspective, why on earth would one go for a Ukrainian aircraft or JV?

Germany Eyes Joint C-130 Fleet With Allies
By: Lars Hoffmann, June 6, 2016 (Photo Credit: 1st Lt. Henry Chan/US Air Force)
BERLIN — The German Federal Ministry of Defence is in talks with partner nations to jointly operate a limited fleet of C-130 Hercules aircraft, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.

The sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the discussions are underway with the Netherlands, the US, Britain and France, all of whom have C-130s in their inventory. The US operates more than a dozen C-130s of the 86th Airlift Wing from German soil.

The German air force is pushing for a transport aircraft smaller than the Airbus A400M for operations on small and poorly fortified airfields. The deployment of Bundeswehr troops in the North African country of Mali has shed light on the shortcomings of the relatively heavy A400M in adverse conditions. The Airbus plane is also considered as not ideally suited for the needs of special forces.

In 2021, the last aircraft of the obsolete C-160 Transall — a two-engine transporter similar to the Hercules — will retire, and Germany will encounter what officials consider a capability gap.

Sources said the talks with France are at an advanced level. The neighboring country — also a user of Transall and A400M aircraft — recently ordered additional C-130s to fill gaps caused by the delayed delivery of A400Ms and the approaching obsolescence of the Transall.

In addition to flying special forces into theater, the French also want the C-130 for the in-flight refueling of helicopters. It's unclear whether a future version of the A400M could perform such a feat. When in 2022 Germany is expected to receive new heavy-lift helicopters to replace CH-53Gs, Germany's armed forces also will have the requirement for air refueling.

A prerequisite for Germany to participate in a common C-130 fleet is the right to dispose of some of the aircraft at some point. Beside the co-financing, the German MoD is mulling to procure a limited — probably only single-digit — number of C-130 for such a pooling solution.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...r-operating-c-130-hercules-partners/85477212/

C-130J v. A400M and C17

Transall v A400M

 

[Beast]

The western european shall go for AN-70, asking of transfer of technology and profit sharing but I guess too much pride and worry of erosion of local western aviation industries mull this idea.

 

[Incog_nito]

Both France and Germany operate 160 Transall, which will be replaced by Airbus A400. But while that takes care of strategic lift, it leaves a gap in tactical lift.

Germany and France create joint tactical air transport squadron
Sebastian Schulte, Bonn - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
05 October 2016

France and Germany's defence ministers have agreed to create a joint air transport squadron that will operate Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules aircraft.

The letter of intent (LoI), signed in Paris on 4 October, will see the Franco-German air transport squadron become operational by 2021. France is set to act as the frame nation of the squadron, which accordingly will be stationed in France.

France currently operates 14 C-130 aircraft (seven C-130H and seven C-130H-30 transporters) and has ordered an additional four aircraft (two C-130Js and two KC-130J tanker/transport). Germany doesn't currently operate the C-130 and so is planning to buy between four and six aircraft as its contribution to the joint squadron.

From the German point of view the primary task for the squadron will be non-combatant evacuation operations, especially for German and European nationals in crisis situations. The C-130Js will also close a German capability gap between the NHIndustries NH90 medium transport helicopter and the larger Airbus A400M transport aircraft.

http://www.janes.com/article/64353/germany-and-france-create-joint-tactical-air-transport-squadron

The choice for C-130 is not that surprising given current C-130 users in Europe: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, France, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, United Kingdom. With the exception of Austria and Sweden, these are all NATO members. Canada and of course the US also use the C-130. From an interoperability perspective, why on earth would one go for a Ukrainian aircraft or JV?

Germany Eyes Joint C-130 Fleet With Allies
By: Lars Hoffmann, June 6, 2016 (Photo Credit: 1st Lt. Henry Chan/US Air Force)
BERLIN — The German Federal Ministry of Defence is in talks with partner nations to jointly operate a limited fleet of C-130 Hercules aircraft, according to sources with knowledge of the negotiations.

The sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the discussions are underway with the Netherlands, the US, Britain and France, all of whom have C-130s in their inventory. The US operates more than a dozen C-130s of the 86th Airlift Wing from German soil.

The German air force is pushing for a transport aircraft smaller than the Airbus A400M for operations on small and poorly fortified airfields. The deployment of Bundeswehr troops in the North African country of Mali has shed light on the shortcomings of the relatively heavy A400M in adverse conditions. The Airbus plane is also considered as not ideally suited for the needs of special forces.

In 2021, the last aircraft of the obsolete C-160 Transall — a two-engine transporter similar to the Hercules — will retire, and Germany will encounter what officials consider a capability gap.

Sources said the talks with France are at an advanced level. The neighboring country — also a user of Transall and A400M aircraft — recently ordered additional C-130s to fill gaps caused by the delayed delivery of A400Ms and the approaching obsolescence of the Transall.

In addition to flying special forces into theater, the French also want the C-130 for the in-flight refueling of helicopters. It's unclear whether a future version of the A400M could perform such a feat. When in 2022 Germany is expected to receive new heavy-lift helicopters to replace CH-53Gs, Germany's armed forces also will have the requirement for air refueling.

A prerequisite for Germany to participate in a common C-130 fleet is the right to dispose of some of the aircraft at some point. Beside the co-financing, the German MoD is mulling to procure a limited — probably only single-digit — number of C-130 for such a pooling solution.
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...r-operating-c-130-hercules-partners/85477212/

C-130J v. A400M and C17

Transall v A400M

Is PAF planning for a local production of some Ukrainian aircraft similar to A-400M and also a transport aircraft having 2 jet engines?

 

[Penguin]

The western european shall go for AN-70, asking of transfer of technology and profit sharing but I guess too much pride and worry of erosion of local western aviation industries mull this idea.

Right.

The Europeans shall do no such thing:
A) Neither Germany nor France nor UK nor Spain nor Turkey, Belgium or Louxemburg is looking for an A400M alternative
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A400M_Atlas#Operators
B) Where would an Antonov plane be built?

"In June 2012, it was decided to carry out assembly of the An-70 at the KAPO factory in Kazan, Russia. The aircraft's wings, tail surfaces and engine nacelles would be built by Antonov in Kiev.
n March 2015 Russia Defence ministry declared that they are ruling out the An-70 for state procurement. They also declared that, as in their opinion, Ukraine has withdrawn from the military and defence agreements signed before the crisis between them by completing the plane without Russian involvement, they would request return of 2.95 billion rubles that Russian government had spent on An-70 project"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-70#Recent_development

Besides, there would be other alternatives than Antonov aircraft for both C130J30 and A400M that are less problematic and actually in production e.g. Embrear KC-390 (23 tons max payload) or Kawasaki C-2 (38 tons max payload) respectively.

C2, A400M, AN70, IL76, Y20, C17

 

[JPMM]

You do now that a big part of the KC-390 is made at the Embraer factory in Évora of Portugal.
Its a joint Brasil / Portugal / Czech Republic / Argentina Project

Its probably the replacement for the Portuguese Air Force C-130H

We bought the C-295M to suplement it and they are very good!